| 3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Fairly simple question.
Let's say I'm a Martial who specializes in Shields. I decide to enchant my Heavy Spiked Shield with a +1 enhancement to AC and the Bashing property. This allows me to bash with it as a +1 weapon.
Later down the road, after I get the Shield Master feat and get a +5 Enhancement to AC, I may want to apply some juicy weapon special abilities (or perhaps before that, if they are truly that good). However, the rules become unclear from this point, and I want to get a(n) (official) clarification on the matter since it's important for building shield bashing martials.
It's quite confusing to me. On one hand, it bashes as a +1 weapon, granting +1 to attack and damage rolls. The +1 enhancement to AC still fulfills the other benefits granted from a +1 weapon, such as increased hardness and item hit points, so a +1[AC] Bashing shield effectively is a (modified) +1 AC and +1 Weapon shield. On the other, even if I applied both a +1 AC and +1 Weapon enhancement, the item would count as having a +2 enhancement in terms of hardness and hit points, something which the +1[AC] Bashing shield wouldn't simulate, and is perhaps part of the requirement needed for weapon special abilities to be applicable.
To this end, I request a FAQ, and propose the FAQ question in this manner: Bashing property: Does shield bashing as a +1 weapon fulfill the +1 weapon enhancement requirement needed to apply weapon special abilities?
It says it does it as one under the conditions, so it seems that it isn't a magic weapon regardless, but behaves like one. I'll faq too for the possibility of making my new slayer even better!
Nope, you must enchant it as a weapon first. It's still super cheap compared to a weapon at 172k for a +10 weapon/shield. Heck a +5 weapon/shield with 26th damage is only 36k which is really really solid.
Nope, you must enchant it as a weapon first. It's still super cheap compared to a weapon at 172k for a +10 weapon/shield. Heck a +5 weapon/shield with 26th damage is only 36k which is really really solid.
I'm not sure it's really that simple though. The problem I run into is Bashing says it attacks as a +1 weapon; other than Hit Points or Hardness, which I'm sure are otherwise calculated the same for AC enhancements, which are already active on the shield at this point, it's not really different. It's the same concept behind SLA's counting as pre-requisites for PRCs; do I get a +1 Enhancement Bonus to Hit and Damage? Yes. Do I have increased Hardness and Hit Points associated with a +1 Enhancement? Yes. So should I then qualify for it?
Im addition, I would also point out this paragraph:
Some magic weapons have special abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses (except where specifically noted). A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents, including those from character abilities and spells) higher than +10. A weapon with a special ability must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus. Weapons cannot possess the same special ability more than once.
The bolded part is quite unclear, but honestly supports my theory. In terms of RAW, as long as it has a +1 Enhancement Bonus (assuming this +1 Enhancement Bonus must apply to Attacks and Damage Rolls), the Bashing Property says it bashes (in abstract terms, makes attacks) as a +1 Weapon, which includes a +1 Enhancement Bonus, meaning that it should technically work. And that's assuming +1 Enhancement Bonus requirement couldn't also be fulfilled with a +1 to AC.
I do agree that yes, it's no doubt cheaper, but getting that +1 worth of extra weapon properties can be really helpful; it is the difference between a Keen and Not-Keen Spiked Shield, after all, as well as the sooner (or even potential) availability of other properties, whether they be a +2 or even +4 property. So it definitely matters in the long run and grand scheme of things.
The Bashing special ability allows it to act as a +1 weapon but it still has to be a +1 weapon before you can add special abilities.
The Bashing special ability allows it to act as a +1 weapon but it still has to be a +1 weapon before you can add special abilities.
The RAW would disagree with you, if that really is the intent. I'll bring up another relevant paragraph I stumbled upon:
Shield enhancement bonuses stack with armor enhancement bonuses. Shield enhancement bonuses do not act as attack or damage bonuses when the shield is used in a shield bash. The bashing special ability, however, does grant a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls (see the special ability description).
A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC.
As with armor, special abilities built into the shield add to the market value in the form of additions to the bonus of the shield, although they do not improve AC. A shield cannot have an effective bonus (enhancement plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +10. A shield with a special ability must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus.
It seems to be mixed messages. The first bolded part says that Shield Enhancements don't count as damage bonuses, though the Bashing property does; obvious, though it does signal that the Bashing property is one of those special abilities that specifically adds to attack and damage.
In regards to the second bolded part, here's the entry for Bashing:
A shield with this special ability is designed to perform a shield bash. A bashing shield deals damage as if it were a bashing weapon of two size categories larger (a Medium light shield thus deals 1d6 points of damage and a Medium heavy shield deals 1d8 points of damage). The shield acts as a +1 weapon when used to bash. Only light and heavy shields can have this ability.
Given the intent behind the above bolded clause, building a shield to "act" as a magic weapon, a fool-proof way to ensure weapon special abilities can be added, in comparison to the Bashing property, which states the enchanted shield "acts" as a +1 weapon for bashing (i.e. attacking), further symbolizes that the Bashing property at the very least shares the same language needed as any other generic shield enchanted with a +1 weapon enhancement, essentially showing me that it's plausible the Bashing property fulfills the same requirement cited when doing it the old-fashioned way.
**EDIT** And if that's not enough, if I have a simple +1[AC] Bashing Heavy Shield, I get a +1 Enhancement Bonus to attack and damage rolls (since it says I bash as a +1 weapon), the same as any other magic weapon. It also has the same increased Hardness and Hit Points like any other +2 Base Price weapon would, so to be quite honest, it already contains all of the subject matter that a +1 enhancement/+1 property weapon would otherwise contain; why would you require spending a +1 property when the weapon already effectively functions as a +1 weapon (and then some)?
The final bolded part in the Magic Shields entry only specifies that "a shield with a special ability must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus." I'm not sure if the writers just copy-pasted 3.5 text, overlooked it, or whatever, but the RAW tells me that it doesn't matter what kind of special ability is being applied, or the kind of enhancement bonus is on the shield (Shield Enhancement or Weapon Enhancement), if it has a +1 enhancement bonus, it qualifies for any kind of property, whether it be Armor, Shield, or Weapons. (Of course, properties that specify shields cannot be used with said property are exempt of that statement, since those are more specific to this general rule.)
As far as I can tell, it seems like a RAW-workable combination to me. Whether that falls with the intent of the rules is exactly why I created this thread; to FAQ it and set the record straight.
Imagine you had a magic ring. The magical properties of this ring lets you treat any weapon you wield as a +1 weapon, granting a +1 enhancement to attack and damage.
Would this ring allow you to enhance non-magical weapons with a special ability? It's the same with your shield. You can enchant a shield as a magic shield, a magic weapon, or both. The Bashing shield special ability allows you to treat your shield as a +1 weapon. This does not mean you have made your magic shield a magic weapon. You still have to enchant your shield as a weapon before you can add weapon special abilities to your magic shield.
The key word is acts. It is not a +1 weapon, it just gets to function like one when bashing.
The key word is acts. It is not a +1 weapon, it just gets to function like one when bashing.
And according to the RAW regarding shields as weapons, "acting" as a magic weapon is all that needs to be done for it to be treated as a magic weapon for adding enhancements and properties.
@ Durngrun Stonebreaker: A Magic Ring, a subject that is completely separate from the item itself being enhanced, is not a proper comparison.
In addition, the only requirement for a character to apply weapon special abilities is that the weapon "must have a +1 enhancement bonus," which, given the context, means it should apply to attack and damage rolls. The Bashing property already fulfills that requirement, and RAW, there is no other requirement. I don't know where this "you must enhance it as a weapon," you keep saying comes from, because all of the relevant texts make no such implications.
If that were the intent, then the sentence should say "A weapon with a special ability must have a +1 weapon enhancement," especially considering "+X Weapon" is a variant game term.
But it doesn't. Ergo, if my interpretation were infact incorrect (though the RAW seems to say that I am), there should be an errata/FAQ to clear that up, since there are properties symbolize the +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls that aren't actually a +1 weapon enhancement.
I would say you need both weapon and(or)armor +1 enhancement before you can add any weapon and armor abilities. Even though the bashing ability is in the armor list it is still a weapon ability per say and can only be applied to shields. That is why you +1 enhancement to hit and damage only. Think of this, a shield is the only item that can have both weapon and armor abilities because of it's versatility.
RAW, it isn't "and", it's "or". It doesn't specify what kind of enhancement bonus it needs, therefore, RAW, either one is sufficient. Even by playing fairly obvious and conservative intent, Enhancement Bonuses to Hit and Damage (the very definition of a +X Weapon) is what makes a Magic Weapon actually be considered a Magic Weapon in regards to the game term, ergo the Bashing property makes it into a Magic Weapon, since it grants a +1 Enhancement Bonus to Hit and Damage.
Saying and/or makes no sense, since in this case those results are mutually exclusive. It either needs both a +1 to AC and a +1 to Hit and Damage, or it needs a +1 to AC or a +1 to Hit and Damage. The difference is a +1 Base Price Bonus, and it matters, especially by the endgame.