The combination of Improve Cleaving Finish and Great Cleave... works how?


Rules Questions


Improve Cleaving Finish. If you drop something to 0 or lower you can attack another creature at your highest bonus. You have no limit at how many times you do it.

Great Cleave: You declare at the beginning your using, as a standard action you attack your opponent at the highest bab. If you hit you can cleave into the next creature and roll an attack. Until you miss. You cannot attack an individual foe more than once during this attack action.

My question is, I declare Great Cleave. I attack and hit the creature, but it lives. I Attack the next adjacent creature, I hit and kill it.

Do I continue on with my Great Cleave, or do I change my attack action and move to Improve Cleaving Finish?

If I do need to do the Improve Cleaving first before continuing on with my Great Cleave, does it allow me to attack the first creature again because its a different attack action?

Further more into the same question, since I keep going with Improve Cleaving until I don't done a creature and when that happens do I continue with Great Cleave, would it count as the same great cleave action as before or a new one?


I believe it works like this:

As a standard action (not a full attack), you can use cleave to attack each person that is adjacent to you and adjacent to the last guy you attacked. Cleaving finish allows you to transfer the cleave from the person you just attacked to another that's adjacent to you, but not necessarily adjacent to your last victim.

Positional example:

A .. B .. C
. .. X .. .
D .. E .. F

You can cleave from A to B to C, but not from A to D (not adjacent). However, if you happen to drop C, you can carry that cleave into D, E or F and continue cleaving at your highest base attack bonus.

Grand Lodge

This is either extreme coincidence or you are the same person in my DFW tabletop group


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1) Declare Great Cleave (a standard action).
2) Targets must be within reach (not necessarily adjacent) and adjacent to the previous target.
3) Make an attack against each target until you miss (end of attacks) or drop a target (see step 4).
4) If you drop a target you can make an extra attack against any opponent within reach. Make this attack and then resume your Great Cleave sequence (return to step 3). Note: if you have Improved Cleaving Finish and drop another target with this bonus attack repeat step 4.

Quintain, Targets are not required to be adjacent to you to use Cleave/Great Cleave. Cleaving Finish does not allow you to transfer the cleave to a creature that is not adjacent to the previous target. What it does is grants you an extra attack against any creature you can attack.

So that people do not need to look up the feats here they are:

CRB p124 Great Cleave wrote:
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the previous foe and also within reach. If you hit, you can continue to make attacks against foes adjacent to the previous foe, so long as they are within your reach. You cannot attack an individual foe more than once during this attack action. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.
UCombat p92 Cleaving Finish wrote:
Benefit: If you make a melee attack, and your target drops to 0 or fewer hit points as a result of your attack, you can make another melee attack using your highest base attack bonus against another opponent within reach. You can make only one extra attack per round with this feat.
UCombat p105 Improved Cleaving Finish wrote:
Benefit: You can use Cleaving Finish any number of times per round.


Improved Cleaving Finish is a non-action. It's a bonus attack for free. It has no relation to Great Cleave, excepting an prerequisite.

So, you use Great Cleave, you get to keep making attacks as long as they are adjacent to the first, you keep hitting, and can't target the same creature twice. For any creature that you knock to 0 or less hp you get an additional attack at anyone within reach.

The simplest way to do this is to just do all your Great Cleave Attacks, and then if any of those attacks killed a creature you get an attack from ICF. If an attack from ICF kills a creature, you still get another attack.


Gauss,

I can understand that interpretation. However, the relevant text...and generally How or group has always played it is how I described. The relevant text being: "If you hit, you can continue to make attacks against foes adjacent to the previous foe, so long as they are within your reach."

Granted it isn't a strict reading. But martial have few fun things anymore, so we give them this.

Edit: After thinking about your method, Gauss, I'm thinking that it's a bit convoluted. I'm not convinced that that is RAI.


Crom, sorry, but I'm in Iowa, not DFW. :)


Quintain, you stated they must be adjacent to you (the attacker). That is not the same as "within reach". Adjacent does not equal "within reach".

Example: I have a Longspear, my reach is 10'. Adjacent is 5'. I can use Cleave/Great Cleave against foes 10' away but not 5' away because Cleave/Great Cleave specifies "within reach" not "adjacent to me"

My point was that you do not need to be adjacent to the target.

Silver Crusade

Because of this line: If you hit, you can continue to make attacks against foes adjacent to the previous foe, so long as they are within your reach. You cannot attack an individual foe more than once during this attack action. I am fairly certain that Cleave continues off of the last attack. The language is fairly specific and says nothing about the previous attack being from Greater Cleave.

Here's a simple run through.

Target A and use Greater Cleave, If successful D&C are targets for next attack.
A B C
D O E
F G H

Attack D, Cannot target A if successful because A has already been attacked this round using this action.
A B C
D O E
F G H

Attack F, CRIT! Kills F and activates Improved Cleaving Finish
A B C
D O E
F G H

Attack C, with new cleave targets...
A B C
D O E
X G H

If you Cleave to B and do not reduce to 0 HP then your cleave turn is over because you are out of valid targets.
If you killed B you could attack anyone and continue cleaving from that attack.

Further, since Cleaving Finish has no language restricting attacks on foes you threaten to 1/rd, when F was defeated from the critical attack, you could have chosen to attack A once more and possibly trigger Improved Cleaving Finish again or used cleave to swing at B as long as you didn't miss.

This can get really complicated when you are attacking at reach and the enemy is clustered.


Gauss wrote:

Quintain, you stated they must be adjacent to you (the attacker). That is not the same as "within reach". Adjacent does not equal "within reach".

Example: I have a Longspear, my reach is 10'. Adjacent is 5'. I can use Cleave/Great Cleave against foes 10' away but not 5' away because Cleave/Great Cleave specifies "within reach" not "adjacent to me"

My point was that you do not need to be adjacent to the target.

Ah, yes. You are correct. It is within reach not necessarily adjacent. I was concerned more with the pattern of attacks than the particulars of adjacent or within reach.


This can get doubly fun with a Dorn Derger + Darting Viper feat so you can basically spiral in or out and hit practically everyone within your reach. While feat intensive, I could see a dwarven fighter with all the goblin/orc/giant cleave feats and CF/ICF + Enlarged just wading into a huge army of bad guys with quite sickening effect.


Gherrick, you cannot start the cleave, change your reach, and then redetermine your available targets. The Dorn Dergar+Darting Viper tactic you stated will not work to 'spiral in or out'.

FAQ wrote:

Cleave: Can I take a 5-foot step in the middle of my attempt to use the Cleave feat, to bring another foe within reach?

No. Cleave is a special action and the conditions for that action are checked at the moment you begin your action. At that moment, all of the available targets are checked to make sure they adjacent to each other and within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step in the middle of the action and check conditions again. If you do not have two targets within reach, adjacent to each other at the start of the attack, you could not even attempt to make an attack using Cleave.
This answer originally appeared in the 9/25/12 Paizo blog.[/b]

Link


So my question is, if you are using Great Cleave and interrupt the sequence with Cleaving Finish, do your remaining Great Cleave attacks continue from where you left off, or can you pick up the sequence from the target you just hit with Cleaving Finish?

ABC
DYE
FGH

You hit A with GC, cleave into B, who drops to 0 HP, then use CF to hit G. Do you go back to C to continue Great Cleave, or can you continue with either F or H?

Silver Crusade

The language is clear: From your previous attack. It doesn't matter what source your last attack came from.


Great Cleave wrote:
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the previous foe and also within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the previous foe and also within reach. You cannot attack an individual foe more than once during this attack action. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.

So first, it does not state from your previous attack. It states from the previous foe.

Second, while you may be making an extra attack against another target via Cleaving Finish that does not change who the "previous foe" was when it comes to Great Cleave. The "previous foe" is "the previous foe you attacked using Great Cleave".

In short, you must still attack a target that is adjacent to the previous attack using Great Cleave, not an attack using Cleaving Finish.

Silver Crusade

Gauss wrote:
So first, it does not state from your previous attack. It states from the previous foe.

Derp! It's even linked in this thread and I've referenced it already. >.<

Gauss wrote:
Second, while you may be making an extra attack against another target via Cleaving Finish that does not change who the "previous foe" was when it comes to Great Cleave. The "previous foe" is "the previous foe you attacked using Great Cleave".

There's no such language at the end of Great Cleave that specifies the foe must have been attacked by Great Cleave, or that the target must be adjacent to a foe you have previously attacked by Great Cleave.

Great Cleave wrote:

You can strike many adjacent foes with a single blow.

Prerequisites: Str 13, Cleave, Power Attack, base attack bonus +4.

Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the previous foe and also within reach. If you hit, you can continue to make attacks against foes adjacent to the previous foe, so long as they are within your reach. You cannot attack an individual foe more than once during this attack action. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.

As you can see, there is no restriction on how you attacked the foe or what source the attack came from. It simply states it must be your previous one. I don't even see where the language indicates it should be restricted only to foes adjacent to opponents last targeted by the cleaving effect.

Further let's compare the closest relevant ability chain, Whirlwind Attack, which is arguably superior.

Dodge - Combat Expertise - Mobility - Spring Attack - Whirlwind Attack
Power Attack - Cleave - Greater Cleave - Cleaving Finish - Improved Cleaving Finish

5 feats that result in attacking everyone within your reach. Adding the limit (and Adding is the correct term, because the limit is not present as written) simply ensures that investing five feats to get to Improved Cleaving Finish is not something you want people to do.

What makes you feel that we should interpret it with the added line: If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the previous foe and also within reach. If you hit, you can continue to make attacks against foes adjacent to the previous foe you attacked using Great Cleave, so long as they are within your reach. You cannot attack an individual foe more than once during this attack action.

Liberty's Edge

Bolding it a bit differently:

Great Cleave wrote:


Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the previous foe and also within reach. If you hit, you can continue to make attacks against foes adjacent to the previous foe, so long as they are within your reach. You cannot attack an individual foe more than once during this attack action. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.

All that is the benefit of Great Cleave, not of cleave finish.

You are trying to chance that to the benefit of cleave finish, while that benefit is applied against the foes targeted by cleave.

It is even reinforced by teh FAQ Gauss cited:

FAQ wrote:

Cleave: Can I take a 5-foot step in the middle of my attempt to use the Cleave feat, to bring another foe within reach?
No. Cleave is a special action and the conditions for that action are checked at the moment you begin your action. At that moment, all of the available targets are checked to make sure they adjacent to each other and within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step in the middle of the action and check conditions again. If you do not have two targets within reach, adjacent to each other at the start of the attack, you could not even attempt to make an attack using Cleave.

This answer originally appeared in the 9/25/12 Paizo blog.

"all of the available targets are checked to make sure they adjacent to each other and within reach" "at the moment you begin your action".


These seem very powerful together. Great Cleave and Improved Cleaving Finish. I'm borrowing Errant's little diagram, I like it.

Example, say it take an average of 2 hits to drop some baddies you are fighting, and they're all over the place. Yeah, fairly ideal situation for a cleaver, lol... but... So X = dead, bold = injured, O = cleaver guy.

You attack guy A first, hit, and decide to move clockwise.

A B C
D O E
F G H

Guy B gets your second attack, and you injure him too.

A B C
D O E
F G H

You continue hitting these dudes, hit hit hit.

A B C
D O E
F G H

Then BAM, you crit on guy G, killing him. Now you get your Cleaving Finish attack!

A B C
D O E
F X H

You hit guy A again, killing him. Another one!

X B C
D O E
F X H

You just follow the chain of killing, hit kill hit kill, all the way up to hitting guy F for the first time.

X X X
D O X
F X X

Then you get back to your Great Cleave attacks, hitting guy F again, killing him.

X X X
D O X
X X X

You get your Cleaving finish attack in on D, followed by your Great Cleave hit on him. And everyone is dead.

X X X
X O X
X X X

Yeah yeah, misses stop it, low rolls in damage, etc. Not being surrounded by weaker enemies do too... but man, when it is in the right situation, these feats can cause carnage.

Silver Crusade

Diego Rossi wrote:

All that is the benefit of Great Cleave, not of cleave finish.

You are trying to chance that to the benefit of cleave finish, while that benefit is applied against the foes targeted by cleave.

I'm not suggesting that Greater Cleave gets the benefits of Cleaving Finish at all. Nowhere am I stating that every attack granted by Great Cleave allows you to choose your next target.

I am saying that if you drop a target to 0 hp while using Great Cleave, Cleaving Finish lets you pick your next target and if you hit you must continue cleaving from that point. At every angle the language says strictly "is adjacent to the previous foe" without any further qualifiers.
Logic dictates that if I have just struck an opponent with Cleaving Finish, that opponent is my previous foe. Therefore it must be used to determine the next target of Greater Cleave.

  • You are still limited to one attack from Greater Cleave per target for this action.
  • You are still limited to attacking foes adjacent to the previous Foe in every situation which did not result in triggering Improved Cleaving Finish.

Again, I do not suggest that Greater cleave becomes, or starts to work as, Cleaving Finish or Improved Cleaving Finish. This is simply about how the feats interact when the conditions for one are triggered while using the other.

Diego Rossi wrote:

It is even reinforced by teh FAQ Gauss cited:

"all of the available targets are checked to make sure they adjacent to each other and within reach" "at the moment you begin your action".

The FAQ was written for Cleave which allows ONE attack at an adjacent foe. Greater Cleave is a much broader feat with more capabilities. It's like comparing snails to mollusks and here's why: Later targets of Greater Cleave are not legal when you start your cleave attacks.

When you start cleaving with Greater Cleave the only targets that are legal are adjacent to your first target. If you did not recalculate:

A B C
D O E
F G H

Targeting A would only ever let you target B & D. Instead, the feat tells you to recalculate and it tells you how: based only on the last foe hit.


ErrantPursuit wrote:
Logic dictates that if I have just struck an opponent with Cleaving Finish, that opponent is my previous foe.

False


ErrantPursuit wrote:

Targeting A would only ever let you target B & D. Instead, the feat tells you to recalculate and it tells you how: based only on the last foe hit.

based only on the last foe hit with greater cleave.

Silver Crusade

Remy Balster wrote:
ErrantPursuit wrote:
Logic dictates that if I have just struck an opponent with Cleaving Finish, that opponent is my previous foe.
False

Please. Explain to me how the last foe I struck =/= the last foe I struck.

Remy Balster wrote:
based only on the last foe hit with greater cleave.

It doesn't actually say that anywhere though. Do we need to quote the feat again? Or link it some more?


The question, I think, is does Improved Cleaving Finish interrupt the attack flow of Greater Cleave (must it be used immediately?) or do all the accumulated attacks from dropping foes come after Greater Cleave Finishes.

If you are surrounded by 9 guys, and you great cleave from opponent #1 (BBEG) into all his mooks, and drop all of the mooks, can you return to the BBEG and hit him 8 more times after all your cleaves are done...or do you hit him 8 more times after each mook is dropped.

Does it matter?

Note that Improved Cleaving Finish does not prevent you from hitting the same opponent twice (or more).

Silver Crusade

Quintain wrote:

The question, I think, is does Improved Cleaving Finish interrupt the attack flow of Greater Cleave (must it be used immediately?) or do all the accumulated attacks from dropping foes come after Greater Cleave Finishes.

If you are surrounded by 9 guys, and you great cleave from opponent #1 (BBEG) into all his mooks, and drop all of the mooks, can you return to the BBEG and hit him 8 more times after all your cleaves are done...or do you hit him 8 more times after each mook is dropped.

Does it matter?

Since you have to roll a successful hit to use the ability and because Cleave limits you to once per target, order matters in this case. It can significantly change how you sequence your targets. Next consider a reach weapon, enlarged, with lunge. Your threat area is now 20' and the potential targets for Improved Cleaving Finish can be separated into several clusters. Which order the bonus attacks resolve in and how you determine legal targets can change the outcome dramatically.


I may be biased, but I think that ErrantPursuits description has the greatest amount of textual support.

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