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Let us say that I have class like oracle with a curse like blackened.
Assume it is a race with a favored class bonus allowing me to hasten through my curse progression, like say a tengu.
The curse grants spell access to a typically arcane spell (in this case firewall) which is not on the cleric list.
What level is the spell for the oracle/cleric?
At 7th level the tengu with the blackened curse can add firewall to their spells known. The question is whether they are adding it as a 4th or 5th level spell. Access to the spell would normally come at level 10 and seemingly take up a 5th level Spell slot to use. But the spell is a 4th level (or lower in the case of summoners) spell for all other classes with the exception of the druid (for whom it is a 5th level spell).
Is the spell originally a 5th level spell for this oracle or a 4th level spell? Does accelerating access to knowing the spell in any way impact what spell slot it takes?
Does the level at which the spell is normally available to the class significant? Because other arcane spells are added after the oracle has been able to cast them (burning hands gained at 2nd level via flame mystery, scorching ray at 5th level via blackened curse, etc).
The examples above are of spells that may be wizard/Sorceror only or wizard/sorceror and magus only but which are 1st or 2nd level spells being learned at levels much higher than anyone would need to be to first be able to cast them. There is an FAQ in the crb about spell like abilities and how to determine if they are divine or arcane. It says to look for an arcane version first, then default to cleric, druid, etc. It also says to look at class and if it is a divine or arcane class, the spell like ability matches their class.
But that is for spell like abilities and is as close a rule I have found regarding spells, specifically. This all does not impact me or any characters I have yet (my character gets fire wall at lvl 8) but I am sure that it might be useful to know in case it comes up. Especially in society play.
I think I remember there being something about the bonus oracle spells always being at whatever their highest level slot was when they learned it, regardless when they learned it.
No source atm. Just my best guess.
Firewall is a 4th level spell, I'm not sure why it would matter what level you gain access to it. The curse does not specify that you learn it as a 5th level spell, therefore the specific rule that the spell is 4th level stays in effect.
I think I remember there being something about the bonus oracle spells always being at whatever their highest level slot was when they learned it, regardless when they learned it.
No source atm. Just my best guess.
There is no text at all saying that in the Oracle class description in the APG. Bonus spells are given at specific levels as are spells granted by curses.
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Firewall is a 4th level spell, I'm not sure why it would matter what level you gain access to it. The curse does not specify that you learn it as a 5th level spell, therefore the specific rule that the spell is 4th level stays in effect.
But Wall Of Fire is NOT a 4th level spell, and there is no such "specific rule". Wall of Fire is:
a 5th level Druid Spell,
a 4th level Sorceror/Wizard, Magus and Fire Domain Spell, and
a 3rd level Summoner Spell.
I don't have a RAW answer for the OP. I looked and couldn't find anything that says to default to one particular class over another, or anything explaining how Oracle Mystery spells work (level-wise) beyond when you get them, or anything else that sheds light on this matter.
Personally (and this is not RAW or RAI), if there is an issue of what level a spell is (as is the case here), I use the Sorceror/Wizard spell level, or if it's not on that list, then the Cleric spell level, then the Druid spell level. So my non-RAW, non-official, homerule answer would be that I would treat Wall of Fire as a 4th level spell.
The priority list for spell-like abilities as given in the Core Rulebook FAQ is the most reasonable guidance we have. It starts with sorcerer/wizard and continues with "cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order". On that basis, Wall of Fire would be a 4th level spell for the Oracle.
There is no text at all saying that in the Oracle class description in the APG. Bonus spells are given at specific levels as are spells granted by curses.I think I remember there being something about the bonus oracle spells always being at whatever their highest level slot was when they learned it, regardless when they learned it.
No source atm. Just my best guess.
There may not be text that says it in the book, but if we apply just a dab of that elusive common sense it fixes this whole issue quite readily.
See... the question is even bigger than "what level is it when I get it early?"
The question is "What level is it when I get it?"
The bonus spells are not on the cleric list, and we have absolutely no RAW answer as to what level these spells are at all for an oracle. (along with other spells having this issue too for oracle)
Given that this isn't an isolated incident with the Oracle class as a whole, what with each mystery granting bonus spells in peculiar ways, such as granting spells from other class lists, and at levels where they couldn't be cast from the cleric list... either we must assume one of two hypothesis.
A) The Oracle class is totally screwed up and poorly written.
B) There is an easy answer here, that the bonus spell known you get from either mysteries or curses is a spell of whatever your highest level cast-able spells are.
If you think the answer is A... well, good luck with that. You'll not find any RAW answers, and get all ticked off at what you perceive is an inferior gaming product. Cause yourself and maybe others undue headaches, and in general just won’t have a good time. You'll end up having to house rule some random BS you pull out your, ... and yeah.
Option B has the fine distinction of being easy, clear cut, very likely RAI, and clears up the entire problem completely. Nothing needs to be house ruled and for the most part this is how a large majority of people handle this oracle spell level issue already.
So. Pick your poison.
There may not be text that says it in the book, but if we apply just a dab of that elusive common sense it fixes this whole issue quite readily.
See... the question is even bigger than "what level is it when I get it early?"
The question is "What level is it when I get it?"
The bonus spells are not on the cleric list, and we have absolutely no RAW answer as to what level these spells are at all for an oracle. (along with other spells having this issue too for oracle)
Given that this isn't an isolated incident with the Oracle class as a whole, what with each mystery granting bonus spells in peculiar ways, such as granting spells from other class lists, and at levels where they couldn't be cast from the cleric list... either we must assume one of two hypothesis.
A) The Oracle class is totally screwed up and poorly written.
B) There is an easy answer here, that the bonus spell known you get from either mysteries or curses is a spell of whatever your highest level cast-able spells are.
If you think the answer is A... well, good luck with that. You'll not find any RAW answers, and get all ticked off at what you perceive is an inferior gaming product. Cause yourself and maybe others undue headaches, and in general just won’t have a good time. You'll end up having to house rule some random BS you pull out your, ... and yeah.
Option B has the fine distinction of being easy, clear cut, very likely RAI, and clears up the entire problem completely. Nothing needs to be house ruled and for the most part this is how a large majority of people handle this oracle spell level issue already.
So. Pick your poison.
No need to make up a house rule? You just made up a house rule because that option is not in the book. And it doesn't appear there simply by 'applying just a dab of common sense' either.
With the Haunted curse, are mage hand and ghost sound learned as 1st level spells because that's the highest spell level you can cast?
In regards to point A, the oracle was written well before all of these other options that are "screwed up". Is it possible it's not the Oracle class that is poorly written?
No need to make up a house rule? You just made up a house rule because that option is not in the book. And it doesn't appear there simply by 'applying just a dab of common sense' either.
With the Haunted curse, are mage hand and ghost sound learned as 1st level spells because that's the highest spell level you can cast?
In regards to point A, the oracle was written well before all of these other options that are "screwed up". Is it possible it's not the Oracle class that is poorly written?
The problem is the same if you only consult the APG and CRB. Oracles get mystery spells and curse spells as extra spells known. These spells are often not on their class list, and thus you have no RAW method for determining what spell level these spells function as.
Sometimes the Oracle will even get mystery spells several class levels before the listed level is even cast-able. Are they getting spells known that they cannot cast?
Clearly the base class without any outside sources just itself alone doesn't give you spells that you cannot even use.
Life Oracle, which I’m more familiar with as I’ve played a few… At 6th level, they gain a bonus mystery spell known. The spell? Neutralize Poison. Neutralize Poison is a 4th level cleric/oracle spell.
Can they cast this spell?
At 16th level they get Mass Heal. A 9th level spell. They can only cast up to 8th level spells. Can they use this basic default class feature? Can they cast Mass Heal at 16th level?
The whole class suffers from this exact problem; it isn’t just the interaction of some FCB and a curse or two. It is the entire class. They gain bonus spells known all over the place, without clarification as to what spell level these spells actually are.
And, one from the Haunted Curse… Even if you decided to roll with a house rule that the spell level is whatever level it is for another class… you gotta decide, which other class? Reverse Gravity, for example, is gained at 15th level, and it is an 8th level druid spell and a 7th level wizard/sorcerer spell. So… which level is it for the Oracle?
Or. Instead of going through all that craziness and trying to find answers to every instance of weird unknown spell levels, you can look to the plainly clear RAI. The bonus spells are you gain are intended to be set at the spell level of your most potent degree. Cast up to 3rd level spells and gain a mystery spell known, it is 3rd. Cast up to 2nd level and gain a bonus curse spell known? It is level 2. Etc.
I don’t know anyone who does it differently. And anything someone comes up with other than this is likely to be overly complex, against RAI, and arbitrarily restrictive or clunky for no good reason. (And very much houserules)
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I am not sure I agree with it being rai or necessarily the best solution. Using the guidelines we have, my thoughts would be to default to the spell-like abilities FAQ table and take the sorc/wiz level where appropriate and use your suggestion when not.
So, if you gain a 9th level spell earier than you could cast it, it's at your highest castable level. If you gain a special that normally is not on your list, you get it at the level a caster whose list it is on normally would and you default to the order of spell-type priority (sorc/wiz, cleric, druid, bard, etc).
This is still easy, seems much more in line with RAI and follows so!e established but only related guidelines.
It does make you wonder if focusing on such a mechanic was the intent behind the design. For instance, using the example described above, what happens when the blackened oracle gnome wants delayed blast fireball asap? It is normally a 7th level spell and is available at oracle level 15. So far so good. But let's say you take your gnome favored class bonus every single level for ten levels, thereby treating your curses effect as five levels higher. Now you add delayed blast fireball to your spells known but you are tenth level which means it is either uncastable or it is a fifth level spell for you. Is it RAI to lose 10 HP or skill points to have a 7th level spell be available in a 5th level spell slot? Maybe but the intent here is difficult to say. Consider that in some cases this is the only ability gained (a spell) and the question can become whether or not the favored class bonuses are relevant or ever worth it for some curses/mysteries, etc.
This is all relevant, too, for those participating in PFS and such. Tavle variation on the subject could make or break a character and in turn, am entire parties ability to survive. Oh, so that low level spell has to be cast in the highest level spell slot I have because I learned greater magic fang at 15th level as a 7th level spell instead of at 5th level as a 3rd level spell?
Who is casting an unmodified 3rd level spell in their limited 7th level + spell slots? Seriously, how is that a benefit? That is a penalty the second you spend that 7th level spell slot to cast it.
Definitely doesn't sound like RAI.
Keep in mind, the characters are supposed to get s benefit from their curses as well as a penalty. Things like using 7th level slots to cast simple 3rd level spells, or spending HP/skill points on favored class advancement to cast low level magics (on a casting class) in slots 1.5 and two times higher than normal is truly the effect of a curse with no benefit. For reasons such as this, I disagree with your statement that it is RAI and makes sense.
This is all relevant, too, for those participating in PFS and such. Tavle variation on the subject could make or break a character and in turn, am entire parties ability to survive. Oh, so that low level spell has to be cast in the highest level spell slot I have because I learned greater magic fang at 15th level as a 7th level spell instead of at 5th level as a 3rd level spell?
Who is casting an unmodified 3rd level spell in their limited 7th level + spell slots? Seriously, how is that a benefit? That is a penalty the second you spend that 7th level spell slot to cast it.
Definitely doesn't sound like RAI.
Keep in mind, the characters are supposed to get s benefit from their curses as well as a penalty. Things like using 7th level slots to cast simple 3rd level spells, or spending HP/skill points on favored class advancement to cast low level magics (on a casting class) in slots 1.5 and two times higher than normal is truly the effect of a curse with no benefit. For reasons such as this, I disagree with your statement that it is RAI and makes sense.
You lost me at this part.
How would you gain Greater Magic Fang at 15th level from a mystery or curse bonus spell known?
Edit: Ah... internet search before posting next time. >.<
Wolfscarred. Hrm, I don't have that book.
More Edit: Wolfscarred seems like the only outlier. In every other case the implications of using your highest current spell level for new bonus spells known is on par with or better than standard levels, as appropriate. There isn't another place where you would end up using a higher level slot to cast a bonus spell like this one.
Witches, with their patron spells has the exact same setup. Some spells are added early, some are added late.
Here is a FAQ on a similar topic:
Cleric domains, sorcerer bloodlines, wizard schools, and certain other class features give spell-like abilities that aren't based on spells. What's the effective spell level for these abilities?
The effective spell level for these spell-like abilities is equal to the highest-level spell that a character of that class could normally cast at the level the ability is gained.
For example, a 1st-level elemental bloodline sorcerer has elemental ray as a spell-like ability. Because a sorcerer 1's highest-level spell available is 1st, that spell-like ability counts as a 1st-level spell. A 9th-level elemental bloodline sorcerer has elemental blast as a spell-like ability. Because a sorcerer 9's highest-level spell available is 4th, that spell-like ability counts as a 4th-level spell.
/cevah
I looked and couldn't find anything that says to default to one particular class over another, or anything explaining how Oracle Mystery spells work (level-wise) beyond when you get them, or anything else that sheds light on this matter.
These spells are rather mysterious.
I believe I had been thinking of that FAQ Cevah just posted... so... we might actually be completely absent a RAW answer. There should be an answer for this…
So... FAQ time.
| 12 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Background info: Some of the spells gained are not on the cleric list, or are gained at levels where the standard level is not cast-able, or have multiple listed levels for various classes. There does not seem to be any listed method for determining what level spells these are for the Oracle within the rules.
Ugh. I know I saw a developer post that it was the highest spell level the character could cast upon acquiring the bonus spell, but damned if I can find it. Or else I was thinking of the FAQ Cevah posted.
Still, this is one of those things that's blatantly obvious in context.
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Well, it certainly does seem obvious until you use your favored class bonuses or are wolf scarred (or faced or whatever). Then it becomes a rather legitimate issue. If it is taking up a slot at the highest level you could cast when you get it, does early acquisition (generally at a spell level that is usable) make it take up a lower slot when your highest level slot is now lower level than the slot you would otherwise get the spell?
That's a fair question. But more importantly, when you are playing in pfs, it becomes a necessary question because you have to expect to operate with specific functions at specific level ranges. A spell you gain at 10th and 11th level but which tops off a character idea, is more or less a waste of time. You might as well take something else, entirely. However, if that spell can be gained at levels 8 or 9, you have plenty of time left to use that 'capstone' or highlight move, especially with slow progression.
In home games, this is definitely less of an issue, though.
Edit: I see, this is a little trickier than it looks, and not obvious at all due to the accelerated progression.
Still, I'd just add the spell at the highest spell level available. If a tengu oracle 7 advances the curse by three levels, they get wall of fire as a third level spell. Congratulations are in order.