I think I’ve come up with an awesome build that uses Bull Rushing with Shields. What do you think? Is it legal? Is it awesome? Does it work and play well with others? I’d prefer RAW-based answers to game balance and conceptual judgments, because I want this character build I’m cooking to be PFS legal. Also, I’d love to see any of your ideas for uber bull rush builds that you think are better.
He’ll probably use a klar in 1 hand and throwing weapons in the other, spears and hammers at this point.
2R2: 2 Weapon
3R2F1: Double Slice, Power Attack: 2(1d6+4)=15
So at this point, it’s pretty straight forward, a 2 weapon fighter with a good AC because his weapons are shields. He could be using a large spiked shield and a klar, trading 1 point of attack bonus for 1 point of AC, or Long Sword and Klar, trading 1 point of attack bonus for +1 damage.
4R2F2: Improved Bull Rush
5R2F3: Spiked Destroyer
6R2F4: Shield Slam
On both shields, I expect the character to have +1 Bashing and +1 weapon enhancements. The bashing enchantment makes those shield bashes damage as if the shield were 2 sizes bigger from 1d6 to 1d8 to 2d6. The items would cost about 6000gp each built up incrementally so the most expensive enchantment would be 3000gp.
Shield Slam gives a free bull rush with every shield bash, and Spiked Destroyer gives a free armor spike attack with every bull rush. The attack routine is Bash/Bull Rush/Spikes & Bash/Bull Rush/Spikes. Boris the Butcher has a Strength of 16 so has a +3 Mod. So the DPR is 2(2d6+4+1d6+4) = 39. If he uses Power Attack, every attack goes up by +2 damage, making the DPR 47. Respectable at level 6.
The Paizo community is divided as to whether Improved and Great bull rush at their collective +4 to Bull Rush attempts granted by Shield Slam. But even if the DM denies that, he won’t deny my giving my allies Attacks of Opportunity granted by Great Bull Rush. Also, due to the Cavalier’s Tactician class ability, all allies get the Paired Opportunist feat, so when they get an attack of opportunity, Boris gets one, too along with another armor spike attack. So the DPR has just jumped another 18.5 points to 57.5
8R2F4C1Rogue1: Sneak Attack 1d6, Trapfinding
To be honest, I’m not sure that Rogue is the best way to go, here. I was thinking that since this character gives out AoO’s when people form up with him, there would be a lot of flanking opportunities, too. Also, since Sneak attack works for both the shield bashes and for the armor spikes, this is going to turn into something like an extra 4d6/round when he can use it.
It also seems maybe I should work in a level of Alchemist or Magus so I can use Enlarge Person, which would stack with Bashing but more importantly increase the size of bull-rushable targets. In a homespun campaign, I could just be a Vivisectionist-Alchemist and have it all.
9R2F5C1Ro1: Combat Reflexes
So, here is something interesting. When Boris uses Tactician & Paired Opportunist, he gets the Attacks of Opportunities the others get due to Great Bull Rush, his attack of opportunity will be another shield bash accompanied by another great bull rush, entitling another round of attacks of opportunity. If Boris has a Dexterity of 14, then that is 3 attacks of opportunity/round. If any of his allies also have Attack of Opportunity builds, say with Greater Trip, Vicious Stomp, and Punishing Kick, or MOMS with Snake Fang, then this becomes a huge AoO party with everybody getting an extra 3-4 attacks/round. AoO builds are good alone, but awesome together! If a lot of allies formed up with Boris but were lacking Combat Reflexes, then they could work out a tactic where the allies took turns taking their AoO’s so Boris could realize his full 3.
10R2F5C1Ro2: Weapon Specialization Klar
Of Course!
11R2F6C1Ro2: Racial Heritage, Goblin, Roll with It
I dunno, Roll with It just sounds cool. Boris should have something defensive going on.
12R2F6C1Ro3: Sneak Attack 2d6
So let’s say Boris gets to flank his ally who also has an AoO build. Then his DPR is 5(2d6+6 +2d6+1d6+4 + 2d6). 172.5/round, not considering extra enhancements on his weapons or belts of strength, Ioun Stones, or anything like that. Plus, he’s throwing out attacks of opportunity to his allies like Mardi Gras beads. And there are times when bull rushing is tactically devastating, like when there are pits, cliffs, and ship’s railings to push people over.
Greater Bull Rush: Only provokes Attacks of Opportunity from the movement. You can only bull rush directly away. Getting good use out of this is about positioning.
Spiked Destroyer: Allows only one attack per turn as it consumes your swift action. Consuming your swift action also consumes the potential immediate action for your turn.
There are some inherent problems with Bull Rush itself. If you hit the target, you move it. On a full attack, you would need to be surrounded to get off all of your attacks.
You get a lot more value off of Bull Rush in conjunction with reach and Combat Reflexes. As a defensive ability it's superb. To use it offensively you'll need a lot more mobility than this build currently has.
The accuracy of your attacks is very low for a long time. At level 6 you get two attack, sure, but your swinging at +6. That's about as good as the party Wizard. You also wait until level 4 before getting Improved Bull Rush, meaning you take AoO each time you attempt a bull rush from the target.
Look into moving Improved Bull Rush and Combat Reflexes up. Working on your accuracy is going to be very important, as with any Two-Weapon build.
Your Stat Buy is illegal for PFS: 20 pts
Str: 16 = 10 pts
Dex: 14 = 5 pts
Con: 13 = 3 pts
Int: 12 = 2 pts
Wis: 14 = 5 pts
Cha: 10 = 0 pts.
---------------------
Total Points: 25
Why do you have Wisdom so high? You don't take enough levels of Ranger to need it for spells, is it just for Will Save bonus? Particular skill bonus?
What about your Int?
What are you really getting out of your Rogue levels? You lose BAB progression, and you get a very situational boost to damage. Not even a very large one at that. I have a similar problem with your level of Cavalier. You get to use Tactician 1/day. So unless your allies have Paired Opportunist as well, you have invested an entire level and two feats into getting a 1/day advantage.
It's a good idea overall, but you might want to hedge your bets differently. Inquisitor 3 gets you a teamwork feat you can use all the time and some basic buffs, as well as maybe the Travel Domain for the cost of BAB. Spring Attack line of feats would let you Bull Rush within your movement.
Spiked Destroyer: Allows only one attack per turn as it consumes your swift action. Consuming your swift action also consumes the potential immediate action for your turn.
> Your Stat Buy is illegal for PFS: 20 pts
Str: 16 = 10 pts
Dex: 14 = 5 pts
Con: 13 = 3 pts
Int: 12 = 2 pts
Wis: 14 = 5 pts
Cha: 10 = 0 pts.
---------------------
Total Points: 25
Nope, that's not illegal. Conman's guess is correct: I did not spend 10 points to make his Strength 16: I spent 5 to make it 14, and as a human, gave him a single +2 in 1 ability score. I chose Strength. I thought it was implicit that the character was human, but sometimes it's better to be explicit instead.
> Why do you have Wisdom so high? You don't take enough levels of Ranger to need it for spells, is it just for Will Save bonus? Particular skill bonus?
What about your Int?
It was for the Will save bonus. This character is taking levels in Fighter, Cavalier, Ranger, and Rogue. He has very little bonus in Will Saves. But I wasn't being super thoughtful about the ablity scores at this time. Mostly, I was thinking about the feats.
> There are some inherent problems with Bull Rush itself. If you hit the target, you move it. On a full attack, you would need to be surrounded to get off all of your attacks.
Well, a bull rush build is meant to take special advantage of battlefield positioning, and anyway, if an opponent gets bull rushed far away, that's not so bad vis a vis winning the fight.
> You get a lot more value off of Bull Rush in conjunction with reach and Combat Reflexes. As a defensive ability it's superb. To use it offensively you'll need a lot more mobility than this build currently has.
I'm taking Combat Reflexes already, but reach is an interesting idea. And you are making a very good point about mobility.
> So unless your allies have Paired Opportunist as well, you have invested an entire level and two feats into getting a 1/day advantage.
Actually, in most PFS scenarios, a 1/day advantage is actually very useful. I could take an extra tactician feat in place of Spiked Destroyer....
> you might want to hedge your bets differently. Inquisitor 3 gets you a teamwork feat you can use all the time and some basic buffs, as well as maybe the Travel Domain for the cost of BAB.
Inquisitor might really be a better way to achieve the Paired Opportunist effect. And levels of Inquisitor will really boost my Will Save, which I'd been concerned about.
> It's a good idea overall,
It's a nice thing for you to say, but it seems a case of the Force might be strong with me, Boris is not a Jedi yet.
You could also look at replacing Cavalier and Rogue with Barbarian. You'd keep the full BAB progression, and rage powers are quite good. Rage also lets you use the Furious enchantment, which greatly discounts your weapon costs.
Why not take Hammer and Fang and go earthbreaker and klar?
I explored that idea earlier, but decided to try this way. A klar with the Bashing enchantment does the same damage as an earthbreaker, costs the same to further enchant as a weapon, and can be used in conjunction with Shield Slam to get an extra Bull Rush and give the party an extra round of Attacks of Opportunity, combined with the Paired Opporutnist feature of my build, that would make for an extra AoO for my character, too.
In addition, I had been thinking that Spiked Destroyer would multiply, too, because I thought it could be taken as a Free Action. I was mistaken about this: Spiked Destroyer costs a Swift Action to use.
With those things in mind, I thought there would be a 2 feat economy created by skipping the earthbreaker and stuck with the klars
Why not take Hammer and Fang and go earthbreaker and klar?
I explored that idea earlier, but decided to try this way. A klar with the Bashing enchantment does the same damage as an earthbreaker, costs the same to further enchant as a weapon, and can be used in conjunction with Shield Slam to get an extra Bull Rush and give the party an extra round of Attacks of Opportunity, combined with the Paired Opporutnist feature of my build, that would make for an extra AoO for my character, too.
This is not often going to be the case. Because you do not have much mobility, when you enter melee with an opponent and bull rush them, they will leave melee range. Your allies might get an AoO here or there if you knock the opponent past them. You would still need to threaten the opponent after the movement from Bull Rush to get that AoO. Further, since Paired Opportunist requires the ally to have it as well for the effect. Tactician means you can give that feat out 1/day.
Why not take Hammer and Fang and go earthbreaker and klar?
I explored that idea earlier, but decided to try this way. A klar with the Bashing enchantment does the same damage as an earthbreaker, costs the same to further enchant as a weapon, and can be used in conjunction with Shield Slam to get an extra Bull Rush and give the party an extra round of Attacks of Opportunity, combined with the Paired Opporutnist feature of my build, that would make for an extra AoO for my character, too.
This is not often going to be the case. Because you do not have much mobility, when you enter melee with an opponent and bull rush them, they will leave melee range. Your allies might get an AoO here or there if you knock the opponent past them. You would still need to threaten the opponent after the movement from Bull Rush to get that AoO. Further, since Paired Opportunist requires the ally to have it as well for the effect. Tactician means you can give that feat out 1/day.
You raised this point before, and it is a good point, but Mr. Connolly asked why 2 Klars instead of 1 Klar and 1 Earthbreaker, and I did explain why I thought it would be worthwhile to try the former.
I have been examining the mobility issues with my character build, and I have preliminary thoughts.
To begin with, I envisioned this character in light or medium armor--especially if he were taking rogue levels--likely Mithril Steel Lamellar Armor. On the battlefield, I am always finding myself wanting the full 30' of movement.
Even so, if this is a character that is constantly bull rushing characters away from him, there is a danger that this character will also be constantly chasing his opponents and will be constantly missing out on his full attacks. This will not always be the case either: if the combat takes place in any of the many indoor and underground PFS scenarios, the targets won't get bull rushed far before they hit walls and fall prone--no bad there! In other situations, like on ships, on mountains, or in scenarios with lots of pits, bull rushing really comes into its own. Also, it may often be the case that Boris will deal with his targets by pushing them far away, and the wizards and gunslingers will ravage them with magic and technology after he flushes them from cover. Also a likely occurrence, and not the worst thing.
But, this character does work as intended when he achieves ideal battlefield positioning, especially by flanking with allies.
Shield Slam allows the attacker to follow the target 5'. Nice, but I agree with you that's not enough. The cheapest way I found to get another 5' step is with another Teamwork Feat, Pack Attack: the first time you attack your opponent, you can take a 5' step as an immediate action. Between Paired Opportunist and Pack Attack, I think there is ample opportunity to exploit battlefield positioning between enemies and allies to achieve maximum effect.
Following further your suggestion of taking 3 levels in Inquisitor, Solo Tactics will allow the Inquisitor to benefit as if all his allies had all his teamwork feats. So if I take Paired Opportunist and Pack Attack, I've got both things going on: excellent opportunity to achieve flanking with one or more allies, and cascading attacks of opportunity as I keep Great Bull Rushing him into my ally and getting AoO's myself. And if I take Precise Strike, too, another Teamwork Feat, I start getting some of that Sneak Attack damage I was taking levels in Rogue for. Also, the Inquisitor's ability to interchange one of his Teamwork Feats for any other has just got to be useful somehow.
I'm still thinking of taking a level in Cavalier for a few reasons. The Solo Tactics class ability doesn't really give allies the Teamwork feat, just lets Boris act as if they had it: sometimes it is better if the allies really had the feat, giving my ally Precision Damage when flanking, for example. Also, now I'm talking about taking 2 or 3 Teamwork Feats, and 1 level in Cavalier gives me a bonus one. And finally, I was thinking of having Boris join the Order of the Seal, and their challenge ability is a bonus Bull Rush or Trip with every full attack against their challenge opponent, icing on the cake.
I would make a bull rush character more like this:
Urban Ranger 2/ Fighter 4/ Urban Ranger 5
1 Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush
2 Shield Slam
3 Weapon Focus(Klar), Weapon Focus(Earthbreaker)
4 Two Weapon Fighting
5 Thunder and Fang
6 Greater Bull Rush
7 Endurance, Lunge
9 Improved Two Weapon Fighting
10 Shield Master
11 Bashing Finish
I would make a bull rush character more like this:
Urban Ranger 2/ Fighter 4/ Urban Ranger 5
1 Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush
2 Shield Slam
3 Weapon Focus(Klar), Weapon Focus(Earthbreaker)
4 Two Weapon Fighting
5 Thunder and Fang
6 Greater Bull Rush
7 Endurance, Lunge
9 Improved Two Weapon Fighting
10 Shield Master
11 Bashing Finish
There are a couple of small problems with your build, one really: prerequisites.
You need a BAB of +6 to take Shield Slam, and you need a BAB of +11 to take Shield Master. That being said I had overlooked Shield Master, and I should have a look at it.
My Thunder and Fang Bull Rush Build called for 2 levels in Ranger right in the beginning. Then a level in Fighter, and I could get Thunder and Fang at level 3.
Lunge is a nice touch, as it speaks to the problem Errant brought up of wanting reach AFTER bull rushing your opponenent away from you.
As to Bashing Finish, I must admit I am prejudiced against crits and crit builds, but I also think that if you are not doing anything else to support Bashing Finish, it will be wasted. Both Earthbreakers and klars only crit on a 20. You aren't taking Improved Critical, and even if you do or make them Keen, you will only threaten on a 19 or 20. I just don't think the math adds up to that being a good feat to take for your build.
There are a couple of small problems with your build, one really: prerequisites.
You need a BAB of +6 to take Shield Slam, and you need a BAB of +11 to take Shield Master. That being said I had overlooked Shield Master, and I should have a look at it.
It looks like those were taken with Ranger Style feats, which do not need to meet prerequisites.
I'm feeling a little dumb here. Klar is a 1-handed weapon! I had it in my head that it was a light weapon because it gives 1 point of shield bonus to AC like a light shield, but when I was looking it up on the Threat Range for the Klar, I discovered my mistake.
Mr. Connelly, Thunder and Fang is TOTALLY the way to go! I should still get a Bashing Klar, but I really can only use 1.
Thunder and Fang makes Improved Shield Bash redundant. Bashing Finish is probably not the strongest feat, I just didn't think of anything else. Combat Reflexes, Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Iron Will, Improved Initiative, Weapon Specialization or anything else could be slotted at 11th and it changes nothing. Weapon and Shield style is almost mandatory in this kind of build to avoid feat logjams around level 6. I wouldn't be too focused on the klar in the beginning. At levels 1-4 the combo of a 2d6 two handed weapon and Power Attack is gonna lay the hurt on most anything, so you have the option of doing that or using 2 klars. Once you hit 5th you use both all the time and keep the shield bonus without Improved Shield Bash.
1Ranger1: Freebooter archetype, Weapon Focus Klar, Improved Shield Bash
2R2: 2 weapon
3R2Fighter1: Weapon Focus Earthbreaker, Thunder and Fang
4R2F2: Power Attack
5R2F3: Improved Bull Rush
6R2F4: Shield Slam
7R2F4Cavalier1: Mount, Challenge, Tactician, Paired Opportunist, Order of the Seal, Great Bull Rush
8R2F4C1Inquisitor1: Stern Gaze, Monster Lore, Judgement of Destruction, Travel (maybe Chaos or Repose)Domain
9R2F4C1I2: Combat Reflexes, Init bonus, Tracking, Detect Alignment
10R2F4C1I3: Pack Attack, Solo Tactics
11R2F4C1I4: Judgement 2/day, Weapon Specialization or Precise Strike
12R2F4C1I5: Bane, Decern Lies
I think the earthbreaker will be mithril, and the klar will be adamantine, and the character name will have to change to Maxwell MacKenzie, after the Beatle's songs, "Bang, bang, Maxwell's silver hammer came down on his head. Bang, bang, Maxwell's silver hammer came down till she's dead..."
Thunder and Fang makes Improved Shield Bash redundant. Bashing Finish is probably not the strongest feat, I just didn't think of anything else. Combat Reflexes, Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Iron Will, Improved Initiative, Weapon Specialization or anything else could be slotted at 11th and it changes nothing. Weapon and Shield style is almost mandatory in this kind of build to avoid feat logjams around level 6. I wouldn't be too focused on the klar in the beginning. At levels 1-4 the combo of a 2d6 two handed weapon and Power Attack is gonna lay the hurt on most anything, so you have the option of doing that or using 2 klars. Once you hit 5th you use both all the time and keep the shield bonus without Improved Shield Bash.
Yup, you don't need Improved Shield Bash for your AC if you have Thunder and Fang. I overlooked that. Also, you can take Shield Slam as Level 2 Ranger if you have Weapon an Shield Style. I overlooked that, too. 2 weapon takes nothing special: I can take it as a regular or combat feat
1Ranger1: Freebooter archetype, Weapon Focus Klar, 2 weapon
2R2: Shield Slam
3R2Fighter1: Weapon Focus Earthbreaker, Thunder and Fang
4R2F2: Power Attack
5R2F3: Improved Bull Rush
6R2F4: Great Bull Rush
7R2F4Cavalier1: Mount, Challenge, Tactician, Paired Opportunist, Order of the Seal, Combat Reflexes
8R2F4C1Inquisitor1: Stern Gaze, Monster Lore, Judgement of Destruction, Travel (maybe Chaos or Repose)Domain
9R2F4C1I2: Weapon Specialization Klar, Init bonus, Tracking, Detect Alignment
10R2F4C1I3: Pack Attack, Solo Tactics
11R2F4C1I4: Judgement 2/day, Precise Strike
12R2F4C1I5: Bane, Decern Lies
This has all been incredibly helpful. Thank you all.
This looks a lot tighter to me over all. While it's very hard to compete with the Travel Domain for a melee character, I suggest Luck as an alternative. Since the effect requires a standard action it must be set up the turn before, but rolling every attack twice and the saves/checks, too, is pretty huge. You can duplicate the effects of the Travel domain with equipment, but not the Luck domain.
In the end it's almost a cosmetic change. I think the new toys in your toolkit do more for the character, too.
I think it looks much tighter to me as well. The Cavalier level seems odd, but the Inquisitor is a good idea. Are you doing it just to get another teamwork feat and Tactician? I'm not sure how you expect to get enough attacks of opportunity to want combat reflexes without reach. I also think your 2 HD mount is gonna die often at level 7. I'm not sold on Weapon Specialization(klar) it seems out of place. At 9th when you get it you have 2 earthbreaker attacks and 1 klar attack on a full attack. I assume with haste that would be 3 earthbreaker attacks and 1 klar attack. You don't have reach so attacking with the klar is going to bull rush people outside your reach. I assume this is intentional with the strategy being full attack with the klar last, bull rush them 5 ft back and then 5 ft step to 15 ft away preventing a full attack in return. This is perfect for Lunge. Put them 15 ft away from you and give yourself 10 ft reach. When they move to get adjacent to you it triggers an attack of opportunity. Take it with your klar and laugh as they get bull rushed back out of reach.
I am taking the level in Cavalier for the bonus Teamwork Feat and for the Tactician ability. Another Cavalier ability I want is the Challenge ability granted by the Order of the Seal. It will grant me 1 free bull rush (or trip) with every full attack against my challenge opponent.
It has been pointed out correctly that the Inquisitor levels will be enough for my character to realize the benefits of my Teamwork, sometimes it will be better if I can really give my allies those feats instead of just getting the benefits as if they had them.
It has been pointed out correctly that the Tactician (and the Challenge) ability are usable only 1/day. I'll go further and say the Tactician ability will only last a few rounds, I think 3. But in practice, I have found that in PFS sessions, with a fairly small number of combat encounters, one time/day is actually a lot. Anyway, the bonus teamwork feat is enough to justify taking the Cavalier Level, Tactician and Challenge are just gravy.
You are absolutely right about the horse. Poor horsey.
This character will only realize attacks of opportunity if my fellow Pathfinders get attacks of opportunity. It will depend upon other melee fighters being willing to form up on the same opponents I form up on. And if that is already happening, then the chances are we will achieve flanking against the opponent. I was thinking when I bull rush someone I am flanking, their movement will stop against the ally's square. They will still be bull rushed, and they will still provoke attacks of opportunity from my allies, and when I have Paired Opportunist, from me.
Within my character build, I will have a move of 30'. Shield Slam allows me to take a 5' step, and Pack Attack will allow me to take another. If I take the Travel Domain, I will be able to ignore difficult terrain that might prevent 5' steps. It is my hope that the ability to take two 5' steps/round will allow me to achieve favorable battlefield position depending on my party's needs by orienting myself just so vis a vis my opponents, and then bull rush them in just the direction I want them to go in, perhaps to back them up against a wall and/or flank one of them, perhaps to shove pirates off the ship and into the water, perhaps to open a gap in the line to let someone else charge the evil wizard, perhaps to isolate one of them from the melee so he can be easily gunned down, perhaps to usher the enemies into an ideal position to get Fireballed or push them into a Blade Barrier, Black Tentacles, or Web, any of all kinds of things.
Father MacKenzie might substitute short spears for his Silver Hammer sometimes. He might Bull Rush them away and then throw a spear at them. He is going to be a spellcaster. He can use bull rush as a way to give himself room to cast spells
Your strategy of bull rushing defensively in order to take advantage of reach is clever.
I'm not completely sold on Weapon Specialization Klar, either. I am intending to get the Bashing Enchantment on the Klar. It will do the same damage on the earthbreaker: 2d6. I am tentatively favoring the Klar over the hammer because with Shield Slam, I will get the Bull Rush, and when it happens that multiple characters form up on the same opponent as I do, or if 1 does who also has an AoO build, then I can get those multiple attacks of opportunity if I keep Shield Slamming with Great Bull Rush so they get the AoO's, I'll get them, too, because of Paired Opportunist, and so on.
I assume this is intentional with the strategy being full attack with the klar last, bull rush them 5 ft back and then 5 ft step to 15 ft away preventing a full attack in return. This is perfect for Lunge. Put them 15 ft away from you and give yourself 10 ft reach. When they move to get adjacent to you it triggers an attack of opportunity. Take it with your klar and laugh as they get bull rushed back out of reach.
The problem is that if they are 10' or more they can charge, and even charge/pounce at higher levels. This is a very dangerous tactic without reliable support. You can accidently set your opponents up for a massive counter-charge.
The long and short of it is that Scott Wilhelm's build is fairly advanced. He'll have to balance range and distance with deliberate positioning. Done correctly the battlefield becomes a Pinball game and Scott the Pinball Wizard. It could really take off with two other similar builds. Reposition feats with a Whip Master would be even better.
