So i just noticed that the FAQ disagrees with itself on if a two handed weapon gets the bonus damage from power attack if you are using it in one hand.
This says you do:
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qno
This says you don't:
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9quw
Thoughts?
Linkified:
A lance is special; it is a two-handed weapon wielded in one hand when you're mounted by special exception. It otherwise remains a two-handed weapon.
The other case is a two-handed weapon wielded AS a one-handed weapon (and therefore is also treated by power attack as a one handed weapon).
"using a two-handed weapon with one hand" <> "treat a weapon that is normally wielded in two hands as a one handed weapon"
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SlimGauge, the lance is just an example in the first FAQ ("such as"). The first FAQ also applies to any other two-handed weapon being used in one hand.
I pointed out the apparent contradiction when the second FAQ came out and was told by a number of posters that the difference is "using" vs "treated as" or vs "wielding".
I still don't really see a need to split hairs in the language to that extent. Either your weapon is or is not in one hand and based on that there is an apparent contradiction here.
SKR had even stated that it would need to be examined but there was no (posted) followup to that. SKR's post
For reading here is the discussion regarding the contradiction.
I do see the difference. A two-handed weapon wielded in one hand (by special rule affecting ONLY wielding) vs a two-handed weapon being treated as a one handed weapon (in ALL respects, including wielding in one hand). I'm sorry that you can't see that difference, but I'm not sure how to explain it better.
SlimGauge, I posted a link to a statement by SKR where he said the language needed to be looked at so clearly I am not the only one seeing a problem with the language.
While I *can* parse the language just as well as you and see a difference you should not have to use legalese to figure out the difference. Anyone who is not using rules legalese will find the two FAQs incompatible without an in-depth analysis of the linguistic differences.
Thus, there is an *apparent* contradiction.
Tesoe, this has all been hashed out before. I suggest reading up on the subject and making a determination for your own table. If playing PFS ask your GM which interpretation of the FAQs they subscribe to.
I did, but thought its irrelevant (it is relevant to me tho).
Splendor, I agree with your statement that #1 could be read as referencing situations where you are using a feat or special ability.
However, I disagree with your #2 statement because the 2nd FAQ (as presented in your order) does not state that it does not apply if you are using a specific feat or special ability.
If there is not some other wording that indicates otherwise (such as the using vs wielded debate) then the Power Attack situations #1 covers are a subset of the Power Attack situations that #2 covers and therefore there is a conflict.
Kazaan, that is what people have stated ever since the 2nd FAQ came out and I agree that it could be interpreted that way.
The problem is, and what I stated in the thread I referenced above, is that your average non-legalese reader will not see that difference and even if you are capable of parsing it it is still splitting legalese hairs.
Even SKR commented that this was a language problem that he needs to bring to the other Devs (link also above). This is not a clear issue if it takes legalese to parse it and it really should be addressed by the Devs.
While I agree it is a complicated game SKR stated the language is an artifact of multiple editions and needed cleaning up. While he may no longer be at Paizo I hope that other Devs also feel that way and will move towards simpler language that does not require so much parsing.
Linkified:
A lance is special; it is a two-handed weapon wielded in one hand when you're mounted by special exception. It otherwise remains a two-handed weapon.
The other case is a two-handed weapon wielded AS a one-handed weapon (and therefore is also treated by power attack as a one handed weapon).
"using a two-handed weapon with one hand" <> "treat a weapon that is normally wielded in two hands as a one handed weapon"
Thanks for the linkafication!
...Even if you were mounted and wielding a Lance, the Lance still counts as a 2-h weapon so you cannot Spell Combat with a Lance just because you wield it "in one hand" because it still isn't a 1-h weapon. But you can Spell Combat with a 2-h weapon that specifies you wield it "as a one-handed weapon" or any variant thereof.
This seem to be a big problem right there. The second FAQ says that "wielding" that lance in one hand means you treat it just like a one handed weapon. The first FAQ says that if you are "using" the lance in one hand you still treat is as a two handed weapon. I think the word "using" would include "wielding" it. Thus the conflict in ruling.
Thus the conflict in ruling.No conflict because "using a two-handed weapon with one hand" isn't using it as a one-handed weapon.
So you're saying that using a weapon to attack a monster is not the same as wielding a weapon to attack a monster.
One way the weapon is treated as a two-handed weapon in all respects except (solely) the number of hands wielding it. This is what you get when the rule says "may be wielded in one hand"
The other way the weapon is treated as a one-handed weapon in all respects. This is what you get when the rule says "is treated as a one-handed weapon".
So you're saying that using a weapon to attack a monster is not the same as wielding a weapon to attack a monster.I've no idea what your question is about or how it is related to this thread.
But read SlimGauge's last post. It explains it well.
I was just restating what you had said and stating the issue at hand.
The root question is a simple one, "if I use a weapon in one had that normally requires two hands, do I treat it as a one or two handed weapon."
The first FAQ clearly says you do. the second FAQ clearly says you don't.
The idea of the rules saying you "wield it like (blank)" isn't adress at all in either FAQ. The only "wield" comes up is in the second FAQ which say, "If you're wielding it in one hand..." Which if we are going to be nit picking is different than saying you are wielding it like a one handed weapon.
The funny part is that everyone seems to gloss over the fact that a Dev (now former Dev but not former at the time) stated this was a language problem and needed to be looked at. I have yet to see anyone from the "they are not contradictory" side of things acknowledge this.
I am curious, did anyone read his post?
There seems to be a lot of getting hung up on what the word "wield" means/implies in this situation, and how it is used.
The first FAQ does not use the word wield and instead uses the more broad term of "use." The first FAQ is specifically addressing a lance though.
From the Pathfinder SRD: "Lance: A lance deals double damage when used from the back of a charging mount. While mounted, you can wield a lance with one hand."
The second FAQ does not address the situation of a weapon being "wielded like a one handed weapon" at all. It instead says, "If you're wielding it in one hand (even if it is normally a two-handed weapon), treat it as a one-handed weapon for the purpose of how much Strength to apply, the Power Attack damage bonus, and so on."
Both the lance description and the second FAQ use the same wording to talk about how the weapon is being used. Which means the second FAQ applies to the lance. The first FAQ addresses the lance specifically. Which means it also applies to the lance. Both FAQ give a different answer on how to treat power attack if you are using a lance in one hand.
Tesoe, the first FAQ is not specifically addressing a lance. It states "such as a Lance" which is an example rather than specifically addressing it.
Tesoe, the first FAQ is not specifically addressing a lance. It states "such as a Lance" which is an example rather than specifically addressing it.
Since the lance is the example used in the question, that would mean the answer does specifically apply to it. Especially since the answer is just, "yes."
The funny part is that everyone seems to gloss over the fact that a Dev (now former Dev but not former at the time) stated this was a language problem and needed to be looked at. I have yet to see anyone from the "they are not contradictory" side of things acknowledge this.
I am curious, did anyone read his post?
I'm your Huckleberry.
I believe that there is a language issue because it makes things a bit ambiguous and difficult to sift through, particularly if you're new to the hobby. I also believe they are not contradictory.
The lance is really the only weapon that I'm aware of that the first FAQ actually applies to, anyway.
Tesoe, there is a difference between specifically addressing and (specifically) applying to.
In the first case it is the subject, in the other it is a consequence.
fretgod99, thank you. :)
The funny part is that everyone seems to gloss over the fact that a Dev (now former Dev but not former at the time) stated this was a language problem and needed to be looked at. I have yet to see anyone from the "they are not contradictory" side of things acknowledge this.
I am curious, did anyone read his post?
I'm your Huckleberry.
I believe that there is a language issue because it makes things a bit ambiguous and difficult to sift through, particularly if you're new to the hobby. I also believe they are not contradictory.
The lance is really the only weapon that I'm aware of that the first FAQ actually applies to, anyway.
The first FAQ should apply any two-handed weapon used in one hand since the question is a blanket question covered all situation. Lances while mounted, phalanx fighter using a spear, etc...
Tesoe, there is a difference between specifically addressing and (specifically) applying to.
In the first case it is the subject, in the other it is a consequence.
That argument seem to be overly reliant on the same kind of confusing language that got us here in the first place. You seem to be saying if I asked, "are vegetables, like celery, eatable." Than a "yes" answer might not mean celery is eatable.
@Tesoe: I think I understand the source of your misunderstanding now.
You have to read the full FAQ, including the question that prompts the answer:
Weapons, Two-Handed in One Hand: When a feat or other special ability says to , does it get treated as one or two handed weapon for the purposes of how to apply the Strength modifier or the Power Attack feat?
If you're wielding it in one hand (even if it is normally a two-handed weapon), treat it as a one-handed weapon for the purpose of how much Strength to apply, the Power Attack damage bonus, and so on.It is, specifically, asking about feats and other special abilities that say to "treat a weapon that is normally wielded in two hands as a one-handed weapon". So the answer, even if it uses the "in one hand" phrasing for ease of understanding by the reader, is still addressing only the question of "wielded one-handed" and doesn't extend to "wielded in one hand" as illustrated by the Lance FAQ. Ergo, no inherent contradiction.
So you are saying that the FAQ that specifically addresses feats and abilities over rules the FAQ that say, "If I am using a two-handed weapon with one hand..." because the latter is a broad statement?
In other words abilities like the phalanx soldier "Phalanx Fighting" which reads "At 3rd level, when a phalanx soldier wields a shield, he can use any polearm or spear of his size as a one-handed weapon." would not get the normal benefits of a two-handed weapon because it literally changes the weapon type from two-handed to one-handed.
But abilities like a using a lance while mounted which reads: "While mounted, you can wield a lance with one hand." you can get the benefits because the lance is still treated as a two-handed weapon that just happens to be wielded in one hand at the moment.
So the argument that they don't contradict stems from the very broad answer to the second FAQ being in response to a narrowly defined question. Despite the answer being broadly worded to apply to anytime you wield a two-hander in one hand, it would not apply to a lance. Due to the question specifically asking about feats and abilities.
The FAQs address two different things; wielding a two-handed weapon in one hand as a two handed weapon and wielding a two handed weapon in one hand as a one handed weapon. To my knowledge, the only two handed weapon that you can use in one hand as a two handed weapon is the lance and only when mounted.
Due to the question specifically asking about feats and abilities.
No. It is because it asks specifically about "to treat a weapon that is normally wielded in two hands as a one handed weapon" instead of simply wielding a two-handed weapon in one hand.
[Bolded emphasis is my own]
***Ninjaed!
Due to the question specifically asking about feats and abilities.No. It is because it asks specifically about "to treat a weapon that is normally wielded in two hands as a one handed weapon" instead of simply wielding a two-handed weapon in one hand.
[Bolded emphasis is my own]
***Ninjaed!
So yes, because the question was narrowly phrased we are suppose to ignore the broadness of the answer.
So yes, because the question was narrowly phrased we are suppose to ignore the broadness of the answer.Due to the question specifically asking about feats and abilities.No. It is because it asks specifically about "to treat a weapon that is normally wielded in two hands as a one handed weapon" instead of simply wielding a two-handed weapon in one hand.
[Bolded emphasis is my own]
***Ninjaed!
In a word, yes.
The lance FAQ is open ended because new abilities and rules are frequently added to the game. Again, to my knowledge, only the lance and only while mounted falls under the two handed weapon wielded in one hand as a two handed weapon. However they might add a new weapon or archtype or feat that allows other weapons to be wielded in that way. So, to accommodate an ever expanding game system, they address it in broad terms even though it currently only applies to the one situation.
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The Lance is a special exception because of how lances were historically used. It's well established that a lance charge delivers tremendous force to the target - far, far more than the rider could deliver with a one-handed thrust.
One big reason (credit to person who posted this link recently) is that armored lancers normally used a lance arret (french word, not mis-spelling), incorrectly translated as a lance rest, on their armor. This multiplied the effective force a mounted lancer could deliver. The Pathfinder rules don't go into the technicality of requiring a lance rest on your armor. Instead, for simplicity, the rules just assume that you have one if you're charging with a lance from horseback.
I believe it's important to not fixate on the whole "lance" thing. They are an example and are subject to the FAQ, but it's not the de facto subject. To be honest, this can extend to far more than the Lance example. Let's take the overly-confusable subject that is a Bastard Sword.
A bastard sword is about 4 feet in length, making it too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon.
Bolded the relevant text.
We know that a Bastard Sword is a One-Handed Exotic Weapon according to the table. Meaning for hit point calculations, hardness, Strength and Power Attack modifiers, feat/ability qualifications, etc. it is to be calculated as a One-Handed Weapon.
But now look at the bolded clause. It says that I can choose to use a Bastard Sword two-handed as a Martial Weapon. What exactly would that entail? And so for this case, we look at the two FAQs, except in reverse.
The first FAQ talks about feats and special abilities allowing us to use two-handed weapons as one-handed weapons. For the purposes of hit points, by the table it is still a Two-Handed Weapon, meaning hit points and hardness are calculated as a Two-Handed Weapon. Everything else changes though; Strength and Power Attack modifiers, feat/ability qualifications, required handedness for proper usage, the list goes on.
The second FAQ talks about using a two-handed weapon in a single hand. Since the weapon type does not change, the feat/ability qualifications, and Strength/Power Attack modifiers all remain the same. Even the weapon stats remain the same (hit points and hardness). The only difference is the hands required to properly use it become reduced. Everything else otherwise is unchanged.
Reversing this logic, using a Bastard Sword in two hands as a Martial Weapon appears to function as a modified version of the 1st FAQ, though only because of the rules for using a One-Handed Weapon in two hands. The 2nd FAQ applies when going from Two-handed to One-handed, not the other way around.
fretgod99, thank you. :)
Mostly I just want to be Doc Holliday. But, you know, without all the tuberculosis.
fretgod99, thank you. :)Mostly I just want to be Doc Holliday. But, you know, without all the tuberculosis.
You just want to twirl teacups?
You just want to twirl teacups?fretgod99, thank you. :)Mostly I just want to be Doc Holliday. But, you know, without all the tuberculosis.
Wait, you mean you don't?
Okay. What power attack does it when you using two handed weapon, you get 50% more bonus, yes? When you using power attack with a two handed weapon in one hand, like titan mauler or using lance on horse back, you don't get that 50% extra because you are using it with one hand.
To make it clear for power attack, it doesn't matter what weapon you use, it's only matter how many hands you use. two hands, you get 150%. one hand, 100%. Off handed, 50%. Unless you are two handed fighter, which your two hands gets 200% of the bonus.
@ SiouL
The FAQ says otherwise:
Power Attack: If I am using a two-handed weapon with one hand (such as a lance while mounted), do still I get the +50% damage for using a two-handed weapon?
Yes.
This FAQ says that if you are using a two-handed weapon with a single hand, you still calculate the Power Attack benefits.
Also, take a look at the Power Attack feat more closely...
This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls.
It even spells it out. As long as the attack is being made with a two-handed weapon (or even a one-handed weapon being used in two hands), that 150% damage is calculated, no questions asked. There is no handiness amount involved (except in the case of one-handed weapons, but that is its own separate topic).
In the case of a Lance, since it's a two-handed weapon that only requires one hand to use while mounted, the Power Attack +50% increase still applies, since using the Lance in one hand does not turn it into or tell you to treat it as a one-handed weapon.
@ SiouL
The FAQ says otherwise:
Power Attack: If I am using a two-handed weapon with one hand (such as a lance while mounted), do still I get the +50% damage for using a two-handed weapon?
Yes.This FAQ says that if you are using a two-handed weapon with a single hand, you still calculate the Power Attack benefits.
Also, take a look at the Power Attack feat more closely...
This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls.It even spells it out. As long as the attack is being made with a two-handed weapon (or even a one-handed weapon being used in two hands), that 150% damage is calculated, no questions asked. There is no handiness amount involved (except in the case of one-handed weapons, but that is its own separate topic).
In the case of a Lance, since it's a two-handed weapon that only requires one hand to use while mounted, the Power Attack +50% increase still applies, since using the Lance in one hand does not turn it into or tell you to treat it as a one-handed weapon.
But, again, for the lance only. Or more specifically, using a two-handed weapon in one hand by means of an ability that does not say "as a one-handed weapon" which to my knowledge only applies to the lance while mounted.
As a thought how does it interact with a Medium sized PC using a Small sized 2-handed weapon or with the Phalanx Soldier?
