Arcane caster for rise of the runelord, advice needed


Advice


Cross posted from ROTRL forums for maximum solicitation.

So our ROTRL group will be starting in the near future, and so far it seems we have a mobile fighter, an oracle (of battle), two newer and undecided players and then myself. I was originally looking to play an archer, but the party could use some arcane casting and I'd rather not shove a "You should try a wizard" statement on a new player. I'm pretty sure the AP runs to 17, so that's what I've been looking at.

I've played wizards before in previous editions. I'm pretty well researched, so I have it down to three choices:

1) A Paladin1/Wizard1/EK10/Wizard6 archer/mage. This brings lots of versatile ways to do damage and bring utility/control but the drawback is the -2CL from the paladin and EK levels.

2) cross blooded draconic/orc Sorcer 1/ Admixture Wizard 16. This thing brings a lot of daze based AOE damage for wide area control and mook cleanup allowing the party to focus on the BBEG. A slightly less noticeable -1CL is the drawback here.

3) Wizard 17. Just straight wizard with a lot of single and wide area control stuff.

I know a wizard is well regarded for any party in this AP. Will 1 and/or 2 be noticeably "behind" what the AP demands for spellcasting? What do you recommend here?


Nothing wrong with any of those builds, although I think the archer paladin ek would be the worst choice in a party that already looks like it will be pretty martial heavy (presuming your newer players go martial.)

Another option though might be a witch instead of a wizard. This might be especially good if you really want to play an archer for one of your new players. Witch isn't any simpler than wizard as far as spells go, but it does have the nice fallback of slumber or evil eye if the player doesn't know what else do to. I think that makes it a very good class to learn to play full casters. You have all the options, but you also have a simple and effective 'default' action if you don't know what to do.

Dark Archive

Well, I am playing a conjurer in RotRL right now and it is a blast. We are almost done with the first book,and the only character who really contributes a ton more than me is the barbarian, but that will change as we get into higher levels. The blaster wizard idea might be really fun as mook-b-gone, especially at the start, but I think it will stay up there in damage until the higher levels. The real concern there is the lack of 9th level spells, so I think a better idea might be go with a blaster and skip the sorc (as much as it pains me to say, i love sorcs). All in all, have fun as an arcane caster in this AP


Dave Justus wrote:

Nothing wrong with any of those builds, although I think the archer paladin ek would be the worst choice in a party that already looks like it will be pretty martial heavy (presuming your newer players go martial.)

Another option though might be a witch instead of a wizard. This might be especially good if you really want to play an archer for one of your new players. Witch isn't any simpler than wizard as far as spells go, but it does have the nice fallback of slumber or evil eye if the player doesn't know what else do to. I think that makes it a very good class to learn to play full casters. You have all the options, but you also have a simple and effective 'default' action if you don't know what to do.

The EK build is an archer, shouldn't conflict with melee.


Posted in the other thread.

Grand Lodge

ROTRL is a arcane campaign and you will have fun no matter what you pick.

I have play through it and wished I picked a witch or wizard for the campaign. I played a cleric and was envious of a lot of the wizard stuff.

Certain types of wizards will be better suited this campaign. Conjuration is always good regardless, Necromancy specialist, Transmutation specialist are going to be your stronger picks for this campaign. Enchantment and Evokers are great but the enemies typically have resistances, good will saves, and immune to mental effects.

The witch is good Because Hexs are strong and keep a witch viable when spells aren't necessary or if they run out.

I really recommend a Necromancy wizard, a Transmutation wizard, or a witch.


Currently halfway (I think...) through the campaign as an elven Conjuration (Teleportation) Specialist from the Mordant Spire and really enjoying it thus far.

When I'm not buffing or throwing out debuffs or controlling spells - I'm moving our heavy hitters around the battlefield and giving them as many full attacks as possible. It's a very busy character and I can't see boredom setting in anytime soon!

Not sure how important this will become later in the game but given the subject matter... I'm sure I won't become LESS relevant. :P

Grand Lodge

well considering Wizard get stronger as you go no you will not become LESS relevant. you will become more relevant.

A good way to move other team mates is give your familiar a wand of Dimension Door and let the familiar use it to port people around with saving your actions and spells to do other things.

I always enjoy a good Teleportation wizard. But it does get redundant to me to play the same time of Wizards over and over as i tend to lean to Clerics and Wizards when I play.

Owner - October Country Comics, LLC.

My group just finished book one and i'm playing a Human Conjuration Wizard who will be going into the Magaambyan Arcanist and focusing on summons later in his career. I have found him very enjoyable (after my Teleportation Elf Wizzy died) and useful. Focusing on battlefield control with some side damage.

If i had to make another PC and wanted to stay in the caster mode it would be very much like your Paladin/Wizard Eldritch Archer. Seems to bring an awesome amount of versatility and the ranged will help alot.


I think, in the cases of the EK or pure wizard build, I'd like to focus on SOS spells like slow. With wayang spellhunter and/or magical lineage on slow I can be throwing out dazing/persistant slows pretty early.

The EK in particular is interesting because with a relatively high chance of critting he's going to eventually be simply including his slow spell whenever he crits and selecting his crit target at one of the recipients. I can imagine the first couple rounds are spent setting up a lockdown situation, but later rounds he can join in the range DPS fun and add more control as needed.

I kind of worry about being a full spell level behind with the EK but when your main spell comes online at third and you only need a few levels on it for your main metamagics you're doing okay. Also the prospect of things are are simply immune to magic is always out there so the archery would really help.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I suppose I should throw in 2 coppers for the Divination School.
Going first is a huge advantage in the high-level rocket tag.
You want to be the wizard dropping Time-Stop, dropping a Monster Summoning IX, your favorite control spell, a buff or two, and then say a Quickened Horrid Wilting as opposed to being the wizard hit by HW, surrounded by foes and having the boss buffed.

prd wrote:


Forewarned (Su): You can always act in the surprise round even if you fail to make a Perception roll to notice a foe, but you are still considered flat-footed until you take an action. In addition, you receive a bonus on initiative checks equal to 1/2 your wizard level (minimum +1). At 20th level, anytime you roll initiative, assume the roll resulted in a natural 20.

Works very well with dex secondary (elves usually) wizards.

With a trait that boosts init(like Reactionary or Elven Reflexes), a initiative pet (scopy, compsagnathus, rabbit) you are looking at (assuming 16 dex):
+3(dx)
+2(trait)
+4(familiar)
+1(school)
+10 init at level one...with ZERO feats. And you always act in the surprise round. Even a non-dex race (assuming 12-14 dex) will have a respectable +8 or +9 to init.
At 17th level you are at +18 to init (and still acting in the surprise round)...with ZERO feats or stat increases.

The other school bonuses are very good...but in every combat...going first (and acting during surprise) is a tremendous advantage.


Wizard is a great class to have in RotRL, but I suggest going straight. Things like Tport are necessary fairly early, and multiclassing will hurt.

You will NEED a full Utility and battlefield control arcanist. Now, if one of the two undecideds is gonna do a Sorc and the other a bard, well, fine. But if they both go martial, you're hosed.

TEAMwork is critical in RotRL. I also suggest a healer, which the Oracle of Battle isn;t very good at. Not necessarily for cure spells (it depends on your play style, we really need in combat healing, other folks play Rocket tag and it's not so necessary then) but the various Restoration/condition spells, etc.

I suggest for the two "undecideds" is Hospitaler Paladin*, and Bard. I note a lack of skills & healing in your current party.

* great for newbs, almost unkillable, and can Channel like mad.


I'd suggest going with the Admixturer option, if only because the Lore Seeker campaign trait is a very nice trait for any caster that focuses on a single spell - like a Blockbuster Wizard does.


ZanThrax wrote:
I'd suggest going with the Admixturer option, if only because the Lore Seeker campaign trait is a very nice trait for any caster that focuses on a single spell - like a Blockbuster Wizard does.

If you focus on any one spell or even school in RotRL you'll be sorry.


I'm not aware of which spells oracles lack. I looked for the major ones (remove curse/disease and restoration) and found them all to be present. I felt the oracle would be exceptional in that role since he's not blowing his spells on control/healing being melee focused.

Certainly a paladin will be strongly encouraged, but if I'm going to run a pure wizard the paladin might be better off as a ranged oath of vengeance paladin, and the bard could also focus on archery for a better balance.


Lastoth wrote:

I'm not aware of which spells oracles lack. I looked for the major ones (remove curse/disease and restoration) and found them all to be present. I felt the oracle would be exceptional in that role since he's not blowing his spells on control/healing being melee focused.

Yes, he can know them. But will he? The advantage of a Cleric is that tomorrow he can cure Blindness, etc. Lesser Restoration is a must do, but the others? And if he's stuck in melee how does he heal others unless he has Channel?


DrDeth wrote:
ZanThrax wrote:
I'd suggest going with the Admixturer option, if only because the Lore Seeker campaign trait is a very nice trait for any caster that focuses on a single spell - like a Blockbuster Wizard does.
If you focus on any one spell or even school in RotRL you'll be sorry.

Admixture insures diversity.

Anyways. A Sin Magic Specialist has a lot of flavor opportunity tied with RotR. As do most specialist wizards.


DrDeth wrote:
ZanThrax wrote:
I'd suggest going with the Admixturer option, if only because the Lore Seeker campaign trait is a very nice trait for any caster that focuses on a single spell - like a Blockbuster Wizard does.
If you focus on any one spell or even school in RotRL you'll be sorry.

I've only played about a book and a half of Runelords, but I can't think of any reason to play a Universalist Wizard. Ever. I can't think of any way for an enemy to be immune to Evocation in general either.


DrDeth wrote:
Yes, he can know them. But will he? The advantage of a Cleric is that tomorrow he can cure Blindness, etc. Lesser Restoration is a must do, but the others? And if he's stuck in melee how does he heal others unless he has Channel?

He wouldn't, healing in combat is terrible at every level for clerics. We've moved away from it because almost anything is better than wasting action economy on those spells. We've had numerous campaigns that have been a lot better since moving out of the "this guy is our healer" mentality.

Keep in mind his combination of shield other (to share damage with them) and his swift self healing *IS* good action economy, and far more healing than we usually get, so he's a big bonus.


ZanThrax wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
ZanThrax wrote:
I'd suggest going with the Admixturer option, if only because the Lore Seeker campaign trait is a very nice trait for any caster that focuses on a single spell - like a Blockbuster Wizard does.
If you focus on any one spell or even school in RotRL you'll be sorry.
I've only played about a book and a half of Runelords, but I can't think of any reason to play a Universalist Wizard. Ever. I can't think of any way for an enemy to be immune to Evocation in general either.

Well, sure you take a School Specialization, but burning a couple feats on Spell focus, and then more on one single spell is a entirely different kettle of fish.

So, yeah, being a Evoker is fine. Being and Invoker that has spent all his feats on being good at one and only one spell? Not so much.

There is one series of encounters in the Runeforge....


Lastoth wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
Yes, he can know them. But will he? The advantage of a Cleric is that tomorrow he can cure Blindness, etc. Lesser Restoration is a must do, but the others? And if he's stuck in melee how does he heal others unless he has Channel?

He wouldn't, healing in combat is terrible at every level for clerics. We've moved away from it because almost anything is better than wasting action economy on those spells. We've had numerous campaigns that have been a lot better since moving out of the "this guy is our healer" mentality.

Keep in mind his combination of shield other (to share damage with them) and his swift self healing *IS* good action economy, and far more healing than we usually get, so he's a big bonus.

Ah, so you play Rocket tag. In most games, where encounters last 6+ rounds, like the way the devs play and my groups play, in combat healing is a Must. Nevermind.


DrDeth wrote:
Ah, so you play Rocket tag. In most games, where encounters last 6+ rounds, like the way the devs play and my groups play, in combat healing is a Must. Nevermind.

We frequently reach the end of our haste spells in our current healerless campaigns without deaths (both at level 11 now). Rocket tag requires some squishy players. We usually get by with front liners who can mitigate a pounding. Also the notion that in combat healing is a must is purely conjecture. At no point is casting a healing spell more valuable than stopping one or several monsters from attacking. At no point is any heal spell going to make up for the melee damage a mirror image will prevent. If you haven't tried it, don't knock it. At first I felt odd about going healerless, but it caused me to examine what I was playing and prioritize some defensive thinking in early rounds to get out in front of damage before it happens.

In fact, that's why I'm up on these mage builds right now, because I see the value of a high initiative dazing spell and how much damage it can shut down. Action locking opponents via dazing spell, slow, obsidian flow and other harrying spells each prevent more damage than any other spell can. Even if I take the CB sorc dip to make my DPR numbers less bad, it's not going to invalidate all the control and preemptive healing I'm able to provide via halting incoming damage.

Grand Lodge

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What Dr Deth is trying to say is 2 things.
1: Clerics are infinitely better then oracles.
2: There will be A LOT of status problems for the cleric to fix this campaign and if this oracle doesn't take those spells your group is going to be hurting. But with an Oracle he is dedicated to having those spells the entire campaign. A cleric can fix his spell list every day and remove what you have and not hurt his class any.

Now what Lastoth wrote about healing in combat is correct. Healing in combat is very terrible action economy. Shield other is good from levels 4-8. Later you will want the "tank" (bad term) to have mitigation of other sorts. Like Stone skin, Mirror Image, displacement, ect ect. to negate hits all together.

You are both right...its just that other player is rolling oracle....God they are heretical scum...only way to be good on one is the right feats/spell Eldritch heritage+Paragon surge. As a base class they are terrible. (without feats)

A cleric is the opposite the domains + a ever changing FULL spell list. Yes as a cleric you can cast EVERY spell on your list.

DRdeth is speaking from a power level aspect. Clerics, Druids, and Wizards are on the top of the food chain.

Silver Crusade

Lastoth wrote:

Cross posted from ROTRL forums for maximum solicitation.

2) cross blooded draconic/orc Sorcer 1/ Admixture Wizard 16. This thing brings a lot of daze based AOE damage for wide area control and mook cleanup allowing the party to focus on the BBEG. A slightly less noticeable -1CL is the drawback here.

I just recently finished this campaign with an elven blaster close to your #2 build, i did not do the daze thing, instead I went for piercing spell in order to carve through SR like Butta


Lastoth wrote:

Cross posted from ROTRL forums for maximum solicitation.

So our ROTRL group will be starting in the near future, and so far it seems we have a mobile fighter, an oracle (of battle), two newer and undecided players and then myself. I was originally looking to play an archer, but the party could use some arcane casting and I'd rather not shove a "You should try a wizard" statement on a new player. I'm pretty sure the AP runs to 17, so that's what I've been looking at.

I've played wizards before in previous editions. I'm pretty well researched, so I have it down to three choices:

1) A Paladin1/Wizard1/EK10/Wizard6 archer/mage. This brings lots of versatile ways to do damage and bring utility/control but the drawback is the -2CL from the paladin and EK levels.

2) cross blooded draconic/orc Sorcer 1/ Admixture Wizard 16. This thing brings a lot of daze based AOE damage for wide area control and mook cleanup allowing the party to focus on the BBEG. A slightly less noticeable -1CL is the drawback here.

3) Wizard 17. Just straight wizard with a lot of single and wide area control stuff.

I know a wizard is well regarded for any party in this AP. Will 1 and/or 2 be noticeably "behind" what the AP demands for spellcasting? What do you recommend here?

I just finished a ROTRL campaign, using your option #2. If your GM allows it, tattooed cross-blooded solves the -1 CL, though your spell progression will still be one level slower. The extra efficiency of the spells more than makes up for it.

I suggest metamagic and spell penetration feats.


Tin & Thac, thank you. I tinkered with some stuff today and found that at the end of the campaign as an evoker I'd be running such massive bonuses to firesnake that I wouldnt need as much spell pen (but I took it anyway). Espcially considering an evokers second roll vs spell penetration it seems overkill (though I trust it will not actually be overkill).

I've toyed with the straight mage to make him Void specialized so he is more focused on SOS since he gets that awesome save debuff ability. Not sure what school he will focus on, but more than likely necromancy or transmutation for the SOS abilities. Even bigger questions about what spell to specialize/perfect. I have thoughts of one of the dispel magics, just to set myself up as a caster killer.


In my experience, the best way to be a caster killer is to just blow them up.

From your choices, I'd just go straight wizzy. Taking the level in crossblooded ups your damage considerably for a few spells sure, but high caster level and not being feat intensive setting up your one nuke spell in your build gives you flexibility to adjust your wizard as you play him.

I would probably vote all levels as a divination (foresight) specialist and learn to love going first all the time. Take improved initiative as your first feat and get used to the feel of the campaign before you start down the road of picking your spell perfection spell.


DrDeth wrote:
ZanThrax wrote:
I'd suggest going with the Admixturer option, if only because the Lore Seeker campaign trait is a very nice trait for any caster that focuses on a single spell - like a Blockbuster Wizard does.
If you focus on any one spell or even school in RotRL you'll be sorry.

To offer a contrary opinion we had a Kitsune Sorcerer (Fey) who focused very heavily on enchantment spells... and simply owned many parts of this AP - and when enchantment magic wasn't effective, creatures already enslaved by Dominate, etc. were more than up to the task.

Of course, that's a specialized Sorcerer - no one in our group likes Wizards very much. They're incredibly versatile in theory, but in practice it never seems to work out that way.

Grand Lodge

Spell perfection e nervation :-) quickened empowered maximized enervation followed by maximized empowered e nervate, followed by your familiar using wand of enervate. Negative 12-16 levels. Sure death ward or spell immunity slows you down but you have greater arcane sightsight and dispel magic. Stripping someone of all thier levels is just fun too.


Lastoth wrote:
At no point is casting a healing spell more valuable than stopping one or several monsters from attacking. At no point is any heal spell going to make up for the melee damage a mirror image will prevent. If you haven't tried it, don't knock it.

1. True, but healing is 100%, while stopping requires a To Hit or a Save or Dr or ER or SR or a Miss chance or a combo of several of them.

2. You can only cast mirror image on yourself, and of course True Sight blows thru it. Mind you, it's a fantastic spell, but usually cast Round 1 or before.

3. I have. I have been in groups where healing was by Wand after battle. This caused only one death, but that's because the DM always had the foe switch after someone went down. But fairly often someone went down and spent rounds playing games on their device instead of their character. And, we blew thru cash for wands like a drunken sailor.


Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:

What Dr Deth is trying to say is 2 things.

1: Clerics are infinitely better then oracles.
2: There will be A LOT of status problems for the cleric to fix this campaign and if this oracle doesn't take those spells your group is going to be hurting. But with an Oracle he is dedicated to having those spells the entire campaign. A cleric can fix his spell list every day and remove what you have and not hurt his class any.

Now what Lastoth wrote about healing in combat is correct. Healing in combat is very terrible action economy. Shield other is good from levels 4-8. Later you will want the "tank" (bad term) to have mitigation of other sorts. Like Stone skin, Mirror Image, displacement, ect ect. to negate hits all together.

DRdeth is speaking from a power level aspect. Clerics, Druids, and Wizards are on the top of the food chain.

1. If you have only ONE Full caster, then yes- a Cleric is hwaaaay better than a Oracle. With a larger party, having two specialized oracles or a Cleric and a oracle, then it's different.

2. True. And it's kinda hard for the oracle to cover all the bases and still have useful day-to-day spells. Why would you take a Cure Blindness spell on such a limited list?

3. Terrible... unless your friend is going down if you don't. And with two feats you can Channel as a Move action, which is fabu. Gets back Action economy. Our Life oracle is amazing.


If your party is good about loading up on rainy day scrolls of remove whatever, the oracle doesn't have to blow his spells on them.

Heck, my clerics load up on those scrolls so that nobody has to wait until tomorrow to get blindness removed. They leave slots empty too, but invariably if you're fighting a monster with blind, they will blind one more pc than the cleric has slots open to cover it.

Wands of cure light wounds are economical, but they're more economical after 1-2 castings of channel energy to get some HPs back to everybody in the group after they get fireballed.


Oracles with the human FCB have more than enough open spells available to pick up the various necessary situational spells. Also many of them, such as remove fear/sickness/paralysis/blindness scale barely at all with caster level making them easy picks for scrolls. As far as channelling goes Life Oracles make far better use of it than Clerics given their heavy investment in Charisma.

As a comparison point my level 10 Lore Oracle currently knows 10/10/7/6/3 spells of level 1-5 when you include free cures, mystery spells, FCB spells and bonus spells from his curse. That is a hell of a lot of versatility without even touching any sort of Paragon Surge shenanigans.


The thread is getting hijacked, the status of the divine spells in the group aren't really relevant. Appreciate the input but it's not the thread for it.


DrDeth wrote:

So, yeah, being a Evoker is fine. Being and Invoker that has spent all his feats on being good at one and only one spell? Not so much.

There is one series of encounters in the Runeforge....

I actually did play through the Runeforge about a year and a half ago. I don't recall anything in there that was completely immune to Evocation and/or all four elements. I do remember

Spoiler:
that I really hate Disjunction
though.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16

To first take the pressure off: playing any Wizard in RotRL will be just fine. (Note: that's "Wizard", not "arcane caster") Beyond that it's all gravy.

If you are considering going partially ranged, I'll recommend Ranger->Arcane Archer. There are good opportunities to really get good mileage out of favored enemy, and other Ranger-tricks.

Also, I'd dial back expectations on level-cap. You won't hit 17 unless your GM is padding in sidequests or RP-XP. Expected play has you hitting 16 after winning the final conflict. So don't design past 15.

If you're going multiclass, the general advice of "guard the early levels" holds true here as well as anywhere. Beyond that, you won't get gimped for being a few levels behind the curve. You won't "miss out" on the cool Wizard stuff if your casting level is reduced due to multiclassing. You'll still rock the combats and be pivotal for the non-combat portions.

As far as what to focus on: bear in mind that RotRL is filled with manyvery high HP targets. Playing the damage-game isn't going to be your best option as a Wizard. As such, I'd recommend against Evoker.


Lots of goodies for a wizard in that AP.

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