Monk Enforcer...


Rules Questions


Enforcer: Whenever you deal nonlethal damage with a melee weapon, you can make an Intimidate check to demoralize your target as a free action. If you are successful, the target is shaken for a number of rounds equal to the damage dealt. If your attack was a critical hit, your target is frightened for 1 round with a successful Intimidate check, as well as being shaken for a number of rounds equal to the damage dealt.

I'm a monk with flurry of blows and other fun Monk tricks. can I combine Enforcer with 1) AoOs? 2) Stunning fist? 3) Flurry O Blows (giving 2+ enforces a round) 3a) If so do those rounds stack if I jack the same target? 4) Scorpion/Gorgon/Medusa. etc Strike? Since it's a free action to intimidate, and I must use nonlethal damage (which a monk can decide), I'd think so. Is a monk's unarmed attacks considered a "Melee Weapon" for the purpose of this feat? if not, is there a feat/ special ability that will allow it? Thanks!


1. So long as the AoO is done for non-lethal damage, then yes.

2. I'm gonna say no on this one, since Stunning Fist states that you don't do damage with your unarmed strike in order to give the target the Stunned condition instead.

3. I'm not sure on this one, so let someone else answer this one.

4. Scorpion Style reduces movement, rather than damage so I'm not sure on this one. Don't remember the other feats off the top of my head.

5. Yes, the monk's unarmed strike is considered both a natural and manufactured weapon, but ONLY the monk to my knowledge gets their unarmed strike treated as both a natural and manufactured weapon. Otherwise, anyone can use an unarmed strike as a melee weapon. Can't fighters take 'unarmed' as one of their weapon categories?

Sczarni

1.) Attacks of Opportunity: No, as you have to make a Demoralize attempt as a "Free Action" - Free Actions are only done on your turn. Attacks of Opportunity are done outside your turn as a No Action.

2.) A Stunning Fist and a Monk's Stunning Fist: Absolutely. A stunning fist can be non-lethal if you wish, it just stuns in the process. Damage is still done normally along-side the stunning fist. You can choose to make it non-lethal with an unarmed strike. For a Monk it works a little differently - First, you get the Stunning Fist Feat for free. The Monk has a segment about Stunning Fist, thus slightly adding to how it works. Not only do you deal normal damage, but it has a variety of status effects because you are a Monk.

3.) Flurry of Blows: Absolutely, for as many hits as you land. It's a free action to intimidate with Enforcer, so you can do it as much(to GM limit) as you wish as long as you meet the required steps. It does not stack. It just refreshes the duration as opposed to extending it.

4.) Scorpion Style: Yes. It still has a damage roll, and it's done with an Unarmed strike. You can choose to make it non-lethal.
Gorgon's Fist: Yes. It still has a damage roll, and it's done with an Unarmed strike. You can choose to make it non-lethal.
Medusa's Wrath: Yes, as it's just two extra unarmed attacks based on a condition your opponent is in.

5.) A Monk's Unarmed Strike is considered a manufactured and natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. Also, since you have Improved Unarmed Strike you are considered armed at all times. Also, this Feat that is given to you is what helps you change your unarmed strike damage from lethal to non-lethal for free. Unarmed Strikes also count as light weapons.


Daniel Turner Zen Archer wrote:

1. So long as the AoO is done for non-lethal damage, then yes.

2. I'm gonna say no on this one, since Stunning Fist states that you don't do damage with your unarmed strike in order to give the target the Stunned condition instead.

3. I'm not sure on this one, so let someone else answer this one.

4. Scorpion Style reduces movement, rather than damage so I'm not sure on this one. Don't remember the other feats off the top of my head.

5. Yes, the monk's unarmed strike is considered both a natural and manufactured weapon, but ONLY the monk to my knowledge gets their unarmed strike treated as both a natural and manufactured weapon. Otherwise, anyone can use an unarmed strike as a melee weapon. Can't fighters take 'unarmed' as one of their weapon categories?

2. No, you do damage AND stun the target.

Stunning Fist forces a foe damaged by your unarmed attack to make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Wis modifier), in addition to dealing damage normally.

Silver Crusade

Slightly off-topic advice:
Combine this with a level 1 dip into the Thug archetype of rogue to Frighten people every time you do more than 3 damage against someone, if you so choose.


Some free actions can be taken when it is not your turn.

You can absolutely use a free action that triggers from non-lethal damage on an Attack of Opportunity.

Shadow Lodge

I think it is GM call whether or not you can use Enforcer on AoO's. On the one hand, it is a Free Action, and those can typically only work on your turn. The exceptions are stuff like talking that you can do at any time. On the other hand, it would make perfect sense for an AoO to scare as much as a normal attack, so it might get "handwaved". So ask GM.


Ok so next up-
Monk Enforcer punches a guy with Scorpion Strike (or stunning fist, or any other "Smak a dude" ability that requires a save, and Enforces with the same attack as a free action. He succeeds on his intimidate roll, and said dude is "shaken" -2 to hit, saves, skill checks, and ability checks. Does he get the -2 save on the Scorpion strike save? Enforcing is a free action, an is not language dependent, but it also is dependent on hitting the opponent.
Seems like a sticky wicket to me. The order of events is a bit wiggly.
we know some of the order:
1)Statement of intent by Enforcemonk "Imma Enforce and MonkPunch sumboddy inna junk"
1a) attack roll made
2)Damage done
2)Enforce activated (free action)Intimidate roll made
2)Scorpion/Stunning/Whatever bustedassMonkpunch ability- part of the "standard action" of making an attack
2)Effects occur.
2)Save for victim required

OK that's a whole lotta "2"s. In what order do they occur?

Silver Crusade

I don't know of any specific rules for what order something like this would happen, but this is what I can think up. There are two ways to think of this. Personally, I like the second way because it seems more ingrained in the rules while the first has to have an artificial thinking system plugged in.

First Way:

The first may sound crazy, but you could look at it like a kind of cascading tier system.

1. Damage dealt

2a. Intimidate check happens
2b. Save for special effect happens

3a. Shaken or not.
3b. Special effect happens or not.

In this case, we can see that being shaken and the special effect are being applied at the same time. That means they wouldn't get the -2 to saves on the special effect as they're being applied simultaneously.

Second Way:

The special effects are being applied during the Standard Action (aka during the attack itself), while the intimidate check requires a further Free Action to activate. Therefore, the intimidate check is being activated after the attack took place. Since the special effects of Scorpion Style take place during the attack itself they would be applied before being shaken. The -2 to shaken wouldn't be applied to the saving throw for Scorpion Style.

In both cases, the creature wouldn't get the -2 to the saving throw.

Silver Crusade

EvilPaladin wrote:
I think it is GM call whether or not you can use Enforcer on AoO's. On the one hand, it is a Free Action, and those can typically only work on your turn. The exceptions are stuff like talking that you can do at any time. On the other hand, it would make perfect sense for an AoO to scare as much as a normal attack, so it might get "handwaved". So ask GM.

I don't see the ambiguity. Enforcer specifically says "Whenever" non-lethal damage is dealt by a melee weapon. The feat does say this is a free action. The GM may place a limit on free actions available, but it would be disingenuous to deny use of this feat otherwise.


ErrantPursuit wrote:
EvilPaladin wrote:
I think it is GM call whether or not you can use Enforcer on AoO's. On the one hand, it is a Free Action, and those can typically only work on your turn. The exceptions are stuff like talking that you can do at any time. On the other hand, it would make perfect sense for an AoO to scare as much as a normal attack, so it might get "handwaved". So ask GM.
I don't see the ambiguity. Enforcer specifically says "Whenever" non-lethal damage is dealt by a melee weapon. The feat does say this is a free action. The GM may place a limit on free actions available, but it would be disingenuous to deny use of this feat otherwise.

I think free actions used to limited to during your turn but according to this it's whenever you take an action. So unless AoOs are a "not-an-action" it should work.

Sczarni

Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
ErrantPursuit wrote:
EvilPaladin wrote:
I think it is GM call whether or not you can use Enforcer on AoO's. On the one hand, it is a Free Action, and those can typically only work on your turn. The exceptions are stuff like talking that you can do at any time. On the other hand, it would make perfect sense for an AoO to scare as much as a normal attack, so it might get "handwaved". So ask GM.
I don't see the ambiguity. Enforcer specifically says "Whenever" non-lethal damage is dealt by a melee weapon. The feat does say this is a free action. The GM may place a limit on free actions available, but it would be disingenuous to deny use of this feat otherwise.
I think free actions used to limited to during your turn but according to this it's whenever you take an action. So unless AoOs are a "not-an-action" it should work.

They are still limited to your turn.

According to what you just wrote, it's whenever you are taking another action normally. You left out the bolded part and that happens to be rather important wording.

AoO's aren't considered part of the norm. Those are outside of the norm.
A GM could alter this, as he can with anything with some houseruling. It's not a big deal either way, I'm just relaying RAW - not enforcing it.

geekgumbo wrote:

Ok so next up-

Monk Enforcer punches a guy with Scorpion Strike (or stunning fist, or any other "Smak a dude" ability that requires a save, and Enforces with the same attack as a free action. He succeeds on his intimidate roll, and said dude is "shaken" -2 to hit, saves, skill checks, and ability checks. Does he get the -2 save on the Scorpion strike save? Enforcing is a free action, an is not language dependent, but it also is dependent on hitting the opponent.
Seems like a sticky wicket to me. The order of events is a bit wiggly.
we know some of the order:
1)Statement of intent by Enforcemonk "Imma Enforce and MonkPunch sumboddy inna junk"
1a) attack roll made
2)Damage done
2)Enforce activated (free action)Intimidate roll made
2)Scorpion/Stunning/Whatever bustedassMonkpunch ability- part of the "standard action" of making an attack
2)Effects occur.
2)Save for victim required

OK that's a whole lotta "2"s. In what order do they occur?

It's really just how you and the GM perceive it. It may be a "finish what you started" sequence, or it may be "well they pretty much happen at the same time anyways" view. Whether you take your free action before or after Scorpion Style's detriment, they are both legal.


Bestiary 1 wrote:

Trip (Ex) A creature with the trip special attack can attempt to trip its opponent as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity if it hits with the specified attack. If the attempt fails, the creature is not tripped in return.

Format: trip (bite); Location: individual attacks.

Would you then say that when this creature performs an AoO it doesn't get to trip?

Sczarni

Komoda wrote:
Bestiary 1 wrote:

Trip (Ex) A creature with the trip special attack can attempt to trip its opponent as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity if it hits with the specified attack. If the attempt fails, the creature is not tripped in return.

Format: trip (bite); Location: individual attacks.

Would you then say that when this creature performs an AoO it doesn't get to trip?

Personally, I wouldn't care as they both happen at about the same time anyways. If I were the GM, and I had a creature that could do that to players, I probably wouldn't allow it. I would likely allow players(their companions or whatever that has it) to use it though.

What matters is not my opinion, but the opinion of his GM. I'm not saying he MUST do anything. I'm just relaying what I've been told and seen dozens of times for RAW. RAW is not the end-all be-all.

If you could clarify better than I could, please do. It'd be nice to know for certain.

Silver Crusade

Kazumetsa Raijin wrote:

According to what you just wrote, it's whenever you are taking another action normally. You left out the bolded part and that happens to be rather important wording.

AoO's aren't considered part of the norm. Those are outside of the norm.
A GM could alter this, as he can with anything with some houseruling. It's not a big deal either way, I'm just relaying RAW - not enforcing it

Attacks of Opportunity are out of the norm? Virtually everybody gets one. In fact, they are so normal, the rules call out specifically when cases occur that prevent a creature from making them. It doesn't happen on your turn but making an Attack of Opportunity is definitely normal.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Monk Enforcer... All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.