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I'm currently in the process of rebuilding my setting from the ground up.
Plan
- Build base classes around a core concept. Remove all feats which conflict the desired outcome of a classes abilities.
- Provide niche protection & tie class abilities to specific weapon groups.
- Melee can have nice things, too. Mundane fighters and rogues, for example, are called warriors and experts.
- No more big 6.
- Magic will follow consistant rules that don't step on everyone else's toes.
Real general list. I have no illusions about this being done anytime soon, but you gotta start somewhere. I decided to start, in order, with the following: Rogue, Fighter, Wizard, Cleric. After I finish these core classes, I can tool around with the others. Anyway, the following is what I have so far:
Rogue Basics
d8 HD, 3/4 bab, Will (Good), Reflex (Good) Fort (Poor).
Damage: High; Defense: Light
Level| Special
1st | Guile, path talent, vanish
2th | Evasion, rogue talent
3rd | Trapsense +1, path talent
4th | Rogue talent, uncanny dodge
5th | Path talent
6th | Rogue talent, trapsense +2
7th | Path talent
8th | Improved uncanny dodge, rogue talent
9th | Trapsense +3, path talent
10th | Advanced talents, rogue talent
11th | Path talent
12th | Rogue talent, trapsense +4
13th | Path talent
14th | Rogue talent
15th | Trapsense +5, path talent
16th | Rogue talent
17th | Path talent
18th | Rogue talent, trapsense +6
19th | Path talent
20th | Path mastery, rogue talent
- Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Rogues are proficient with all simple and rogue weapons (hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword). They are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.
- Guile (Ex) A rogue is a lightly armored, agile warrior that uses a combination of stealth and quick attacks to disable and destroy their opponents. Guile represents their ability to channel their energies into blindingly fast and lethal attacks. At the start of each day, a rogue begins with 1 point of guile. Her guile goes up or down throughout the day, but usually cannot go higher than her Charisma modifier (minimum 1), though some feats and magic items may affect this maximum. A rogue spends guile to activate her special abilities (see below), and regains guile in the following ways:
Critical Hit: Each time the rogue confirms a critical hit with a rogue weapon while in the heat of combat, she regains 1 guile point. Confirming a critical hit on a helpless or unaware creature or on a creature that has fewer Hit Dice than half the rogue’s character level does not restore guile.
Killing Blow: When the rogue reduces a creature to 0 or fewer hit points with a rogue weapon while in the heat of combat, she regains 1 guile point. Destroying an unattended object or reducing a creature that has fewer Hit Dice than half the rogue’s character level to 0 or fewer hit points does not restore any guile.
- Vanish (Su) As a standard action, the rogue expends 1 point of guile to vanish from sight. This functions as the vanish spell and uses the rogue's level as her caster level. (Notes: Around level 9-11, the action cost for this will be reduced to a move action and again at 17-20 to a swift action)
- Path Talents [Placeholder. At 1st level, a rogue will select her Path which will define her abilities as she advances through the class. A rogue may not select Path talents from any but her chosen Path.]
Generally speaking, I intend for these to be a mix of general rogue-style talents, some combat related, others skill or niche related. No real prerequisites are attached right now, as I haven't decided yet what abilities I want available and at what level. This is just a sample from quick brainstorming.
- Combat Training A rogue that selects this talent gains a bonus combat feat (see Feats) for which she meets the prerequisites. A rogue may select this talent multiple times.
- Elusive (Su) A rogue can befuddle divinations used against her as if she were under the effect of a nondetection spell with a caster level equal to her character level. She can suppress or resume this protection as a standard action. If dispelled, the rogue cannot resume the nondetection for 1d4 rounds.
- Fast Movement (Ex) A rogue's land speed is faster than the norm for her race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor, and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the rogue's speed because of any load carried or armor worn. This bonus stacks with any other bonuses to the rogue's land speed.
- Scoundrel A rogue that selects this talent gains the Improved Feint feat.
- Slice Throat (Ex) The rogue is skilled at quietly eliminating guards and others when they are caught unaware. If a rogue damages an opponent that is unaware of her, that opponent cannot speak or make other noises until the end of her next turn. This is a stunning effect. The effects of a rogue's Kiss (if any) stack with this effect.
Just a few from brainstorming. Obviously, I'll have to remove the critical feats. Most of the abilities in each Path will cost a variable amount of Guile.
- Path I Signature Strike: I intend for this to grant 1 Guile, be used as a standard action, and grant a scaling amount of critical range and multiplier, but I haven't fully fleshed out the idea, obviously.
- Kiss of Death A rogue may add her Dexterity modifier to her damage dealt with a rogue weapon on a successful critical hit.
Alternatively, the rogue may inflict this extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.
- Kiss of Death, Improved The rogue may apply the additional damage granted by her Kiss of Death to all damage dealt with the dagger, kukri, punching daggers, or sword-breaker dagger. On a successful critical hit, she adds 1.5 times her Dexterity modifier.
Alternatively, the rogue may inflict 1.5 times her Dexterity modifier anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.
- Kiss Of Agony Whenever you score a critical hit with a rogue weapon, your opponent takes 1 point of bleed damage per two rogue levels each round on his turn, in addition to the damage dealt by the critical hit.
Alternatively, the rogue may inflict this extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.
Bleed damage can be stopped by a DC 15 Heal skill check or through any magical healing. Bleeding damage from this ability does not stack with itself. Bleeding damage bypasses any damage reduction the creature might possess.
- Kiss of Agony, Improved This talent make the wounds “vicious”. Any concentration checks made while under the effects of a Kiss of Agony add the rogue's Charisma modifier to the DC, in addition to the damage dealt.
- Path II Signature Strike: Wounding Strike (Ex) As a standard action, while wielding a rogue weapon, you may deliver a wounding strike. A wounding strike deals normal weapon damage on a successful hit and recovers 1 guile. Additionally, the jagged wounds the rogue leaves cause intense pain to her opponent that deal 1d4 damage each time he takes a move, standard, or full-round action for a number of rounds equal to one half her rogue level (minimum 1). Each round the target takes damage from this effect after the first, she gain 1 additional guile. This damage can be stopped by a Heal check (DC 15) or through the application of any spell that cures hit point damage.
- Path III Signature Strike: I intend for this to grant 1 Guile, be used as a standard action, and grant a scaling amount of armor or DR penetration. I haven't fully fleshed out the idea, obviously.
- Kiss Of Betrayal Whenever you score a critical hit with a rogue weapon, in addition to the damage dealt by the rogue's critical hit, your opponent suffers one of the following conditions for a short time: blinded, dazzled, deafened, entangled, shaken, or sickened. This condition lasts for 1 round. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s AC, the penalty lasts 1 additional round. This penalty can usually be removed if the target spends a move action.
Alternatively, the rogue may inflict one of these conditions anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.
Kiss Of Betrayal, Improved The penalty lasts for 1d4 rounds, plus 1 round for every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD. In addition, removing the condition requires the target to spend a standard action.
Constructive comments, questions, and criticisms are appreciated.
Have you considered calling it something otherr than Rogue?
I went ahead and moved everything to the following link: Rogue Revision, Soril
- Changes
- Rogue talents are completely non-combat related & added a few more
- Moved the combat related talents I had to Paths.
- Paths will be purely combat related and represent a particular rogue's style of combat.
- Assigned alchemical fluff to the vanish ability, reclassified as Ex.
Have you considered calling it something other than Rogue?
Okay, I'll bite, why?=)
Obviously, you are looking for something to fill the rogue's shoes, and are keeping some of the standard rogue abilities, but it seems that you're making a substantial departure. Obviously there isn't a finished draft to ascertain this, but that is the impression I am getting.
I thought that's why you were asking, but I didn't want to assume and put words in your mouth, so I figured it was worth the double-check.=)
I'd actually considered calling it scoundrel at one point, to be honest.
Done a lot more thinking on the subject and your comment, specifically, "substantial departure," really stuck with me. The original intent wasn't to depart from the rogue, but to correct some issues I and my players have with it - taking into account their suggestions and many of the other rogue fixes in these threads.
I'm going to archive the ideas I have and use for something else, but get back to the rogue and provide some niche protection, as well as remove some things which make them second class. I'll post more tonight.
You should post a draft of what it is you want, something more than an outline. The Vanish feature and Paths are what lead me to the "substantial departure" comment.
You should post a draft of what it is you want, something more than an outline. The Vanish feature and Paths are what lead me to the "substantial departure" comment.
I figured as much and you were correct.
We (the group I play with) have been talking about this for a long time - I've been reluctant to do it until now - they're good with removing the Bard as a class and folding it into a Rogue archetype, so as to maintain the style of play. So, that's what we're going to do.
We already use spell-less variants for many classes as it is, so it's not going to be a drastic change for us (for example, Paladin (Antipaladin) with the Warrior of the Holy Light (Eternal Night) Archetype; Ranger with the Skirmisher Archetype)
This is what I have thusfar, with the minor changes included; it leaves the rogue mostly intact, but I did grant them good Will saves.
It's a work in progress, but I plan on doing the following:- Traps: I'm throwing out the Trap-based archetypes for Rogue and Ranger, but keeping the idea. While Learn (Ranger) Trap and the Improved versions will exist for all classes, a special feat (or talent for the rogue) specifically for Rogue and Ranger will grant them a wider range of Traps and uses per day. I want the Rogue and Ranger classes to excel with traps. While everyone else receives the standard allotment, a rogue will gain 1 + Intelligence modifier and a ranger will receive 1 + Wisdom. I'll be going through the traps to make sure they all have appropriate components (i.e. all (Su) traps require a specific and appropriate scroll for use).
- Rogue Talents: Everyone and their brother seems to have done a rogue rewrite in some form or fashion; I'll likely go through these and see if any strike my fancy for replacing many of the current poor rogue talents.
- Bard Archetype: Make sure the benefits and costs are roughly equivalent. Right now it feels like you're getting a lot more going with Bard - basically, I'm not sure if I yanked enough class features just yet.
As always, any constructive comments or criticism is appreciated.
Edit Edit to add a note: The Bard archetype may select Masterpieces in place of a feat. Consider allowing them to select it in place of a rogue talent, as well.
In your Bard archetype, it seems to be a bard who gives up spells for rogue talents. Possibly weaker than a bard, but interesting.
In your new version of sneak attack, does the extra damage also apply to simple weapons? It seems weird than light crossbows and daggers wouldn't apply. Do the bonuses from Clever Explorer stack with Trapfinding?
Also, perhaps you can use your shelved abilities for some kind of rogue variant that has spell-like or supernatural abilities... and isn't a ninja. Actually, I might try my hand at that.
It is my hope that once I get the rogue talents revised either personally or from borrowing from the hard work others put into their talent revisions, that the loss and gains for the Bard archetype will balance out. You're right though, my initial assessment of Bardic music was a lot higher than it should have been. So far, all bards have done was lose spells, but gain rogue talents and uncanny dodge.
I'll have to add in daggers, lightcrossbows, and one or two others to "rogue weapons" or spell out more clearly what constitutes a rogue weapon so as to avoid anything I didn't anticipate.
Thanks for catching that. I just removed that line from Clever Explorer, but left the rest intact.
I was actually considering that, but please feel free to use anything you liked. A lot of it was from a project to make a Witchblade class that used a Bloodlust mechanic. I never came even close to finishing or testing it, but the concept was pretty darn interesting.
I mostly skimmed just to check things out but I wanted to comment on your version of sneak attack. While it's nice that you can get your dex mod to damage it doesn't really make sneak attack better. It makes it hit a little harder sure, but it doesn't really fix any of the fundamental flaws that sneak attack has. Sneak attack doesn't need to hit harder, it's damage is fine really, but it's the situational usage and the not-rare-enough immunity to it that cause problems.
I'm also not a huge fan of making dex into more of a super stat. Plus it makes level dipping into rogue even better than what it already is. Level dipping is by no means bad, but this is crazy awesome level dipping to the point you might be hurting yourself if you don't dip. Two good saves, awesome skill list, dex to damage, and if you take a second level, evasion and a rogue talent. I see fighters in your campaign being a bit thugish.
I'd recommend coming at it from another angle. Like, "A rogue who can't sneak attack an opponent adds their rogue level to their damage rolls," or something like that.
Just my two cents though and YMMV.
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Giving this a quick read, thoughts so far.
SA: To keep dipping from being an issue, maybe cap the dex bonus you can add to damage at the Rogue's level. Someone dips for two levels, they can add 2 damage with finesse (also might want to word this doesn't work with Agile unless that's how you want it to work to not let people double dip damage)
Rogue Talents: Scoundrel is the only one that stands out to me, making CMB somewhat manageable to try and mess with opponents. Are the changes in the first post supposed to be assumed in this, or is it's just what's listed in the Doc that we're looking at?
I mostly skimmed just to check things out but I wanted to comment on your version of sneak attack. While it's nice that you can get your dex mod to damage it doesn't really make sneak attack better. It makes it hit a little harder sure, but it doesn't really fix any of the fundamental flaws that sneak attack has. Sneak attack doesn't need to hit harder, it's damage is fine really, but it's the situational usage and the not-rare-enough immunity to it that cause problems.
I'm also not a huge fan of making dex into more of a super stat. Plus it makes level dipping into rogue even better than what it already is. Level dipping is by no means bad, but this is crazy awesome level dipping to the point you might be hurting yourself if you don't dip. Two good saves, awesome skill list, dex to damage, and if you take a second level, evasion and a rogue talent. I see fighters in your campaign being a bit thugish.
I'd recommend coming at it from another angle. Like, "A rogue who can't sneak attack an opponent adds their rogue level to their damage rolls," or something like that.
Just my two cents though and YMMV.
Much appreciated Gunsmith Paladin & N. Jolly - you both bring up valid points. For sneak attack, I'll probably word it in a fashion similar to what Gunsmith suggests to lessen the impact of dipping into rogue (I'll start, conservatively, with 1/2 rogue levels to damage with finesse weapons when sneak attack is unavailable). I don't have a problem with dipping, but I do have an issue with making Dexterity more appealing than it already is. One thing, though not represented here, is a change to the way saves are calculated in a fashion similar to 4e (Str or Con for Fortitude, Int or Dex for Reflex, and Wis or Cha for Will saves).
Rogue Talents: Scoundrel is the only one that stands out to me, making CMB somewhat manageable to try and mess with opponents. Are the changes in the first post supposed to be assumed in this, or is it's just what's listed in the Doc that we're looking at?
The changes in the original post are pretty much dropped. I was straying too far from the path, so to speak. The document contains all current changes. I think Cieran is going to toy with some of the mechanics in the OP and I know I eventually will when I run out of things to do with the current revisions for all classes we're going to use in my group (it's a big revision; post-apocalyptic and all the decisions of significance the PCs made over the last 10 years of my previous version of the scenario will be taken into account, such as the setting's Drow equivalent "winning", moving to the surface, and enslaving or slaughtering all of their kin).
I'll add the sneak attack change to the notes in the document and get it worded properly tonight, likely to include the range of weapons usable, as well (likely change from "Rogue Weapons" to light or one-handed weapons and rogue weapons).
Again, thanks guys!
I agree about limiting "dex to damage" and know of a way to do it. I refer you to Canny Defense - ability of the Duelist prestige class. I'm sure you can lift some language from this to accomplish the level-based bonus damage limit .
Canny Defense (Ex)
When wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level as a dodge bonus to her Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. If a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus.
I like your solution, Cieran (and may use it for a dagger specialist archetype), though I may actually end up dropping the entirety of Dex/Int/half level to damage. As I've been skimming through a ton of the rogue threads - the amount of which is simply staggering - I noticed a common theme: Dex to damage, Int to damage, etc. Multiple ways to boost the damage output by adding a stat modifier or something more abstract. I've also seen countless comments stating that a rogue's damage is fine, but the problem lies in dealing it, i.e. the conditions by which dealing sneak attack damage are difficult for many to meet.
With that in mind, I added a "Precision" entry under the Sneak Attack Entry.
I've mostly looked over Lemmy's rogue revision at this point - still trying to decide on many of the talents he rewrote, which are pretty nice.
Added:
Precision to Sneak Attack (Complete Warrior) & Trapsmith to talents.
Talents (Lemmy) Minor and Major Magic
Class Features (Lemmy) Shadow Strike, Trapspotter, Improved Evasion.
Class Features (StreamoftheSky) Stalker (Darkstalker feat).
Link (Same as above, but I hate scrolling up) Rogue, Sórilian
A while back, I did a Noble class with an "inspiration" mechanic. In essence, it took the core concept of the Variant Channeling mechanics used by Clerics and applied them to a class feature of the noble which allowed the class to be a party buffer through his natural charisma, leadership, and so on. While the noble class I put together was just an experiment for me (we never really used it), the thought occured to me (while I was looking at the sneak attack-related talents) that it might be an interesting addition to the rogue with some modification, as well as a basis to rewrite some of the current sneak attack talents.
Basic Rules: A rogue halves his sneak attack dice in order to apply said affect (minimum 1 rounded down, so not useable till level 3). Perhaps bonuses and penalties are morale or circumstance and maybe some sort of limit on uses (definitely no more than 1 time per round, but uses per day, as well). The DC of relevant saves (if any) would be 10 + 1/2 the Rogue's level + the rogue's (Intelligence/Charisma?) modifier. Bonuses are equal to the number of sneak attack dice sacrificed (i.e. minimum 1, maximum 5)
Examples:
Valorous Strike (Ex) All allies within 30 feet affected by fear may attempt another saving throw and receive a +1 morale bonus on the roll. A creature unaffected by fear gains a morale to its Armor Class until the end of your next turn and on its attack roll if it makes a charge attack before your next turn.
Fortuitous Strike (Ex) All allies within 30 feet gain a luck bonus on one roll (attack roll, CMB check, saving throw, or skill check) made before the end of your next turn. Alternatively, the rogue may inflict a penalty on all d20 rolls until the end of your next turn.
I'm not saying take everything there and clone it for rogues, but several of them could be quite fitting while allowing the rogue to contribute more without further buffing damage.
Thoughts?
- Returned Lore Master to the Bard Archetype in exchange for Shadowstrike.
- Added Decrescendo at 7th level to the Bard Archetype to replace trapspotter.
- Went through all iterations of Hide in Plain Sight and replaced the rogue version, which was a joke (the joke is, in 2nd Edition AD&D, the rogue was the only one with access to it, while in Pathfinder, everyone and their brother has a better version and a shadow sorcerer even gets it one level sooner and better without having to multiclass). Out of five classes with the ability, there were 5 different versions or phrasings.
- The new rogue version is the wording all will use across the board for my campaign.
- Moved stalker to talents (temporarily). Too appealing as a 1 level dip at 1st level - might move it to advanced talents (undecided).
Added the following talents: Charlatan, Danger Sense, Dilettante, Smash and Grab, Smuggler. A few of them are for NPCs of mine (Charlatan, Smash and Grab).
I think I just need to collect the full list, see if anyone has already done solutions I like for them, and adopt those, then fix the rest.