Post Apocalyptic Pathfinder

[Reynard]

I am putting together a potst-apocalyptic campaign using the Pathfinder rules and I was hoping to get some insight and opinions. First off, let me establish two important things:

1) By "post apocalyptic" I mean nuclear wasteland (and other calamities) destroyed Earth inspired by the likes of CRPGs like Wasteland and Fallout, and other media like the movie Hell Comes to Frogtown and the comic Wasteland. So I mean a sci-fi post apocalypse, with plenty of weirdness and super-science, but no magic and with protagonists (aka PCs) that are primarily human -- so NOT Gamma World type mutants.

2) I want to mine information from Paizo published materials and the Pathfinder SRD because the players want to play Pathfinder, not a different game using the Pathfinder engine.

Also, i should note that I am totally aware of the upcoming technology Guide and Iron Gods AP, which will certainly have some useful stuff to incorporate, but we plan on starting sooner than August.

All that said, I am hoping to put together a list of character options. I am going to limit race to humans, but I want to collect enough non-magical classes and class archetypes to make sure there are plenty of options for everyone while keeping all of the meta-game archtypes (including healers) in the mix. I think I'll need to allow alchemists of some sort, given a high tech paint job, in order to achieve this. I am not totally against converting some spellcaster class into a psychic if it seems appropriate and necessary.

I figure it won't be too hard to paint most monsters as mutants, and a lot of magic items can be re-skinned as high-tech. Guns might be a problem, though, up to and including rocket launchers and plasma rifles, so any suggestions would be helpful.

Thanks all.

[Michael Sayre]

Things that I would probably do as part of a post-apocalyptic campaign:

Consider bringing in some of the psionics material from Dreamscarred Press. Psychic abilities are pretty standard futuristic fare and you're going to find that Pathfinder doesn't play super well without some kind of supernatural backing to the party, even if it's something as simple as a Vitalist playing healer and keeping the party on their feet. Other classes that can be easily reflavored to fit a magic-free post-apocalyptic wasteland include the Alchemist and the Ninja. A Ninja using Vanishing Trick could be an infiltration-style hitman who has salvaged some Metal Gear type personal cloaking technology. An Alchemist could be the guy who's figured out how to combine the various irradiated plants and substances into chemical concoctions, and the bombs are fairly appropriate to the setting in and of themselves.

Consider using an alternate subsystem for firearms instead of the core one. If there is a base assumption that most of the people you run into are going to have access to firearms, than Pathfinder's firearm system is terrible. The touch AC is going to to leave you with dying party members during almost every combat, or force your entire group into playing Dex heavy monk alternates. Consider a subsystem like Penetration Rating. One-handed firearms have PR 2, two-handed firearms have PR 4, allowing them to ignore 2-4 points of AC from armor, natural armor, and shields. Enhancement bonuses automatically improve PR, so a +4 rifle would ignore 8 points of AC from armor, natural armor, and shields. You'll find this is much better balanced and easy to play with, especially in a world where there are a lot of guns.

If you want to create your own unique firearms, use the advanced firearms in Ultimate Combat as a baseline. The Reign of Winter AP also had several entries for World War I era firearms in book 5, "Rasputin Must Die!". These could be another good resource for establishing the baseline of your futuristic weaponry.

[Cap. Darling]

I think the " the players want to play pathfinder not a differently game using the pathfinder engine" goal clashses with the sci- fi no magic thing. The only advice i can think of is to abandon one of the goals. As it stands now pathfinder is a fantasy roleplay game and taking away the fantasy is a different game on same engine.

[Reynard]

I only meant that they want to be able to use their pathfinder books at the table, hence my desire to rely primarily on flavor reskinning and selective options. Given how option deep Pathfinder is, even in the core book, it should be doable.

I'll definitely have to think about firearms. My concern is striking a balance between genre-verisimilitude and, well, balance. I'm tempted to reskin wands for rare high tech weapons and just say regular guns work like crossbows and stuff.

[tumbler]

I've run a few games like this and one game that was a sort of space fantasy game. I would say you don't need to start by discounting or discarding anything. With the right fluff, even the most magical of items can be technology. Here are a few things we have done:

We once had a wizard who carried a small tablet sized piece of hardware that housed nanobots. These tiny robots were capable of restructuring matter, but would only respond to very specific verbal and physical instructions. So the verbal and somatic components of a spell were actually complex instructions to a computer. New discoveries could be made through experimentation. The player obviously limited his spell list to things that seemed reasonable. So he command the nanobots to swarm out and build a wall of stone but not a wall of force, for example.

I had a villain who had similarly acquired a communicator type device which could give commands to an abandoned orbital station. Using this device, he could call down attacks from above.

We had a PC who was the monk archetype which has throw anything and treats all weapons as improvised weapons, can't remember the name of it. He fought primarily with a big crescent wrench and throwing gears from his tool belt (like shuriken or something). He eventually found a massive mechanical hand that he lugged around. When it was powered a for a few rounds a day he had the equivalent of improved natural attack for his unarmed strike and a strength bonus.

We had a spellslinger, the gun using wizard. It is way less than optimal, but it was fun to say she was shooting a gun using different power packs that would use the ray spells she had.

Spell-less ranger from Kobold Press is super useful.

We didn't use it, but we considered refluffing the paladin into an order of knights who use power armor. Smite, save bonuses, spells, and the special weapon were all powered by the armor.

Alchemists are already weird science.

Inquisitors would be pretty easy to refluff as cybernetics.

Ninja tricks as technology I like a lot.

We had a T-1000 sort of character in the space opera game who was a Rakshasa blooded sorcerer. All of his spells had to do with changing shape and making claw hands and things. That one worked really well.

What I have found works best for these kinds of campaigns is if you let rule of cool win and try to avoid working to optimize.

[Reynard]

After running through the SRD I started to come to the conclusion that that's probably the best course: explain what the setting and campaign are intended to be and ask the players to make something appropriate, with guidelines and input, re-fluffing and re-skinning as necessary. If I maintain veto power and work with them on their characters, it should work fine with players I know.

Now, what about guns? They are quintessential to the style of PA I am going for. Anyone know how Infinite Futures or Broken Earth handle them? Do you think I can just use the gear list from Darwin's World 2E (based on d20 Modern)?

[Joshua Goudreau]

This product may be of interest to you.

[Reynard]

As I noted in my OP, I am aware of the upcoming Numeria/Tech stuff, but it comes out too late for the start of the game. Thanks, though.

Does anyone have any experience with the EN World Santiago AP. The (free) Player's Guide has some tech and rules changes that look like they have potential.

[Carl Hanson]

In my opinion energy weapons are easier to convert than modern slug slingers. I would just treat energy weapons like wands of blaster spells (scorching ray, fireball, lightening bolt, etc.); using charges as the remaining power in the device or energy pack. This approach works especially well if the super high tech stuff is very rare in your post-apocalyptic world under the assumption that the prodcution facilities were lost in the apocalypse.

[Reynard]

Here's the rough first draft of the character generation rules I came up with, for those that might be interested:

CHARACTER GENERATION

The goal of character generation for the post apocalyptic Pathfinder game is to make as few changes to the rules as possible so that players will be able to consult their Core books, APGs, etc… without having to worry about reams of extra and conflicting material. As such, the following are the basic guidelines for character generation, which will likely get tweaked as we go through the process:

Ability Scores: There are no changes to ability scores. They should be generated by way of 4d6-L, in order, with the option to switch two scores.

Race: Only Humans are allowed. Note the ability score bonus and keep in mind any changes to skills and feats when choosing those benefits.

Classes: The following classes are allowed essentially unaltered from the Core book with options available from the Advanced Player’s Guide: Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger, and Rogue. Rangers should be of a sort that do not acquire spells and barbarians should not take options that give them overt extranormal powers. The flavor of PA we are going for here is more grounded, at least where PCs are concerned, with a decidedly sci-fi bent, rather than the gonzo Gamma World style.

A note on Rangers: for the purposes of Favored Enemies, monsters will be used right out of the Bestiaries. Most Humanoid type enemies will in fact be some flavor of cannibal mutant thing, so Humanoid (Goblinoid) becomes Mutant (Goblinoid). Undead will exist even if the explanation is more horrific superscience than magic, but they are still a viable enemy type.

Other allowed classes include the Alchemist, the Bard and the Monk. These three classes require much more care and buy in to the milieu to ensure they strike the right tone. The Alchemist is a student of pre-war tech. His “magical” abilities are re-skinned as concoctions and ancient, barely understood super-science. The Bard, rather than being a jack of all trades, is the descendent of a psychic commando engineered for the Final War. A bard’s abilities and spells represent psychic powers and only performances and spells should be chosen that can be reasonably explained as ESP, telepathy, psychokinesis and the like. Monks are a special case, representing genetically engineered super soldier bio-droids that have been wandering aimless for nearly a century since The End. A PC monk must be one that recently resurfaced with little or no memory of its prior existence.

Other classes are generally not allowed unless a player has a very compelling explanation for the character and a way to build it and describe it that does not destroy the admittedly already tenuous verisimilitude of the game.

Skills: Skills, including what are class skills for the various classes, remain mostly unchanged with a few exceptions. Knowledge (Arcana) is renamed Knowledge (Technology) and is used to discern and identify pre-End tech. Spellcraft has been eliminated entirely -- any of its uses that come up will be handled by Knowledge (Technology) -- and Use Magical Device becomes Use Technology and is a universal class skill and is usable untrained with the caveat that terrible failures always result in bloody hilarity. Add the Drive (Dex) skill, which is a class skill for anyone with the Ride skill. Fly becomes Pilot.

Feats: Generally speaking, all feats in the Core and APG are allowed and work as described in those sources. Note that some flavor changes may be required. In addition, firearms are considered bows and crossbows for feat purposes, and bullets are considered arrows (so, yes, Monks and others may Deflect Bullets).

Gear: Most equipment will work as explained in the book, with whatever necessary flavor changes get it in the right genre (ex: the alchemical items become technology). The big ones, of course, are guns.

All guns are martial weapons -- they are easy to fire but hard to master, so making them martial demands training or taking a -4 non-proficiency penalty. For the time being, I am going to simplify the types of guns into the following categories:

Pistols, Rifles and Shotguns

and the following firing modes:

Single Shot, Semi-Automatic and Automatic.

These combine to create 9 basic weapon types, costs, ammo capacities and range increments:

Pistol, Single Shot: revolver 50 gp, 6 rounds, 50 ft
Pistol, Semi-Auto: Modern Handgun 75 gp, 12 rounds, 50 ft
Pistol, Auto: Submachine Gun 100 gp, 30 rounds, 50 ft
Rifle, Single Shot: Hunting rifle 60 gp, 2 rounds, 150 ft
Rifle, Semi-Auto: Assault Rifle 100 gp, 30 rounds, 150 ft
Rifle, Auto: Machinegun 150 gp, 100 rounds, 150 ft
Shotgun, Single: Hunting Shotgun 75 gp, 1 round, 20 ft
Shotgun, Semi-Auto: Modern Shotgun 150 gp, 5 rounds, 20 ft
Shotgun, AUto: Tactical Shotgun 200 gp, 10 rounds, 20 ft

I realize this is an oversimplification of epic proportions, but it should get us started.

Pistol damage = 1d8/19-20. Rifle damage = 1d10/x3. Shotguns do 2d6/x4. Note: the shotgun critical multiplier is reduced by one per full range increment away to a minimum of x2 in the third range increment or farther. Ammunition is determined by category: all pistols use the same ammo, etc… Different ammo types can increase penetration (to hit), impact (damage or threat range), or add energy damage (ex: incendiary). Basic ammo costs 1 gp per round.

Firing Modes: It is a standard action to fire a single shot. Semi-automatic weapons may be”fired wild” as a full round action, consuming 3 rounds for a +2 to hit. Automatic weapons may fire a burst of 3 rounds for a +2 to hit as a standard action, or be fired on full auto (consuming 10 rounds or 50% of the ammo in the weapon, whichever is greater) as a full round action. Against a full auto attack, targets lose their dexterity bonus to AC, if any, and take double damage (triple on a successful critical hit).

If a character possesses the Point Blank Shot feat and is within 30 feet of his target, the threat range of a firearm is increased by 1.

A note about currency: the different types of coins in Pathfinder stand for different thing in this setting. CP (copper) = crappy pieces. SP (silver) = shiny pieces. GP (gold) = good pieces. PP (platinum) = perfect pieces. “Pieces” refers to bits of useful salvage, from transistors and copper wire to nuts, bolts and bullets. If a character is out of ammo, roll percentile against the number of GP the character has on hand (actual pieces, not just value in other treasure). If it is equal to or less than, then he has found a bullet in his pieces. Reduce the character’s GP by 1. The character may continue to search for a bullet in his GP until the first failed percentile roll. He may not check again until after finding more GP. This is a move equivalent action.

[Michael Sayre]

If you've got a little cash to throw down, Thunderscape:The World of Aden is a .pdf available on this site that has a ton of stuff appropriate to a post-apocalyptic world, including simplified firearm rules, technology based classes and gear, and Mad Max style vehicles. It's actually a very impressive document.

[krevon]

There is a free download called Santiago: A Myth of a Far Future that is a conversion of pathfinder to sci-fi. You could check that out and see if it's sometime you might be interested in.

[Reynard]

It's never a good sign when you post some design and people respond immediately with pointing you toward something else. ;)

[Michael Sayre]

Reynard wrote:

It's never a good sign when you post some design and people respond immediately with pointing you toward something else. ;)

Couple things-

1) Are you keeping the misfire and touch AC rules for guns? I kind of recommend throwing them out. Assume that you're far enough in the future that people know how to make bullet-proof armor.

2)

Reynard wrote:

" Semi-automatic weapons may be”fired wild” as a full round action, consuming 3 rounds for a +2 to hit. Automatic weapons may fire a burst of 3 rounds for a +2 to hit as a standard action, or be fired on full auto (consuming 10 rounds or 50% of the ammo in the weapon, whichever is greater) as a full round action. Against a full auto attack, targets lose their dexterity bonus to AC, if any, and take double damage (triple on a successful critical hit)."

I might rethink this entirely. You're putting more rounds in the air for a +2 to hit with one of them? I'd think about going with something where wild firing with a semi-auto gives you an extra attack (or more than one depending on the weapon), but with a -4 to both shots, making it work similarly to a double-barrel. Full auto might be better represented by allowing the character to attack all targets in a 60 foot line and having them (the targets) make a Reflex save against a specific DC instead of the attacker making an attack roll, kind of giving you a different version of the Scatter property. Introducing some unique area attacks to the players also makes sense given the limited class options. Pretty sure that's how they did full auto in the Star Wars RPG as well.

3) I notice the Gunslinger didn't make your list of allowed classes. Was that intentional? This is generally one of the types of campaigns where he actually [i]doesn[/t] seem out of place.

[Reynard]

1) No. I want guns to be ubiquitous because it fits the genre, but I don't want them to dominate -- or kill PCs left and right. HP are abstract enough that action movie physics work just fine.

2) I am not looking to simulate what guns do in the real world so much as I am trying to get them to do what they do in the fiction. Being able to expend extra bullets to increase the chance to land a hit is both easier to adjudicate and does not overpower semi-autos. In general, I don't like combat mechanics that us to-hit penalties as the balancing factor. Those kinds of systems tend to disincentivize doing cool stuff because the potential whiff factor. Mechanics with other costs are easier for players to decide whether it is worth it ($2 in bullets, drawing an AoO, etc...).

3) I am trying to stick to the Core + APG just because that is what we usually play with. Besides, it seems like a bad idea to include a gun-centered class when I want all the PCs to be packing.

[TritonOne]

There was the Exodus role-playing game by Glutton Creeper Games that started out as a pen-and-paper conversion of Fallout. It was designed for the d20 Modern system, so I presume it could be converted to Pathfinder rules.

Exodus

[Rynjin]

Not necessarily. Even in fiction where everyone uses guns, there's always that one guy who's the sharpshooter or the crack shot who's better than everyone else.

Where everyone else grabs the biggest gun they can find and fires blindly he takes a good rifle or a revolver (or two) and is even more effective than they.

Plus, Grit is like tailor made for this kind of action movie trope heavy campaign.

You'll still have your street samurai, your Kenshiro wannabes and whatnot even with the Gunslinger available as the go-to gun guy.

And, in a Guns Everywhere setting, even a single level of Gunslinger will get you Gun Training, so if they want to use guns very well it's not a heavy investment. I might suggest adding a Feat for it as well (Expert Firearm Training or some such, prerequisite of Weapon Focus: Firearm, applies to only one type?).

That way you can have your big burly Barbarian Rambo-ing it up with dual M60's with a mere Feat investment.

[Reynard]

I think it is important to make sure -- which admittedly will require some tweaking after play testing -- that the guy with the chainsaw and the guy with SAW are equally terrifying.

[Michael Sayre]

Reynard wrote:

I think it is important to make sure -- which admittedly will require some tweaking after play testing -- that the guy with the chainsaw and the guy with SAW are equally terrifying.

If you throw Touch AC and Misfires both out the door you're pretty much there with guns. As long as the M-249 and the Stihl tree-remover are targeting the same defense and one isn't blowing up every 5th round, everything else will even out.

The problem with putting multiple bullets in the air for an increased chance to hit comes in with balancing resources and actions. What type of action is it to use the semi-auto or full auto setting on your gun? Standard? Full? How many of your attacks can you get the bonus on? How easy is it to pick up more ammunition? You actually introduce more variables into the equation than simplifying it to a special attack option would, and more bonuses to it can create a situation where semi-auto = free Rapid Shot. Which is probably okay, but there's some things that are a bit off about you getting more and more accurate the more bullets you put in the air. The "spray and pray" style of shooting only really works in video games and drive by's.

[Reynard]

I prefer a bonus to hit to multiple "free" attacks, conceptually anyway. That said, a player/friend and I are going o run a couple set piece fights, him running a party of mixed weaponry and me running monsters/raiders/etc, to see how it works in practice.

[Rotolutundro]

Dot for interest in the subject.

[MatthewJHanson]

For what it's worth, my company (Sneak Attack Press), just put out a book called Broken Earth that sounds very similar to what you're doing.

[chillblame]

I've gotten broken earth and it's very good. The setting is excellent and the class/race options are interesting.

But I miss my gamma world mutated tiger warrior with his gamma ray eyes, death leach field and black ray gun. Sigh. Good times.

[MatthewJHanson]

Thanks for the kind words.

And yes, Broken Earth does not really support the gonzo Gammar World style apocalypse. I hear that Warlord of the Apocalypse may do that better when it finally comes out.

[Fabian Benavente]

chillblame wrote:

I've gotten broken earth and it's very good. The setting is excellent and the class/race options are interesting.

But I miss my gamma world mutated tiger warrior with his gamma ray eyes, death leach field and black ray gun. Sigh. Good times.

I also miss GW.

But I found your tiger warrior's cousin. :)

[DeathQuaker]

I would suggest YOU, if you can, find a copy of d20 Apocalypse, a supplement for d20 Modern. This is not a book the players need to have at the table, so I think this fits your goals of not requiring the players to have more than their corebooks and house rules at the table.

It is, however, a valuable resource for GMs for setting up a post-Apocalyptic campaign. Systems for scavenging and bartering might be especially useful for you. Since it's d20 System, any system you do adapt to Pathfinder should be relatively easy to convert. But it's more just a source of ideas for you. It is a short book so if you find it it won't take you long to flip through.

Of your allowed classes, I would consider adding the slayer and brawler from the ACG to your list. They suit the world, and in a world where ammo and even melee weapons can be rare, you need a class that can excel at fistfighting (brawler), and I understand why you would not include the monk.

You need to consider rules for crafting, jury rigging, etc. Perhaps homebrew a rogue archetype specializing in working with technology.

Fortunately, the bestiary as you say is rife with creatures easily refluffed for a post apocalyptic world. I think most of your typical, generic "Fallout-esque" creatures (giant insects, mutated animals) can be found in there easily.

Good luck!

[Michael Sayre]

DeathQuaker wrote:

Of your allowed classes, I would consider adding the slayer and brawler from the ACG to your list. They suit the world, and in a world where ammo and even melee weapons can be rare, you need a class that can excel at fistfighting (brawler), and I understand why you would not include the monk.

Seconded. The Brawler would be a very appropriate fit.