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All. Yes, every single complaint so far regarding more accounting, has everything to do with folks not following the rules in place for chronicles since day one. Just because common practice was to not follow the rules, doesn't mean the UTS is adding work.
Its just a piece of paper that makes it tough to not do the work you were supposed to do all along.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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Personally, I've seen exactly zero benefit from the ITS. The people faithfully recording their purchases on it were faithfully recording purchases on their chronicles before anyway, and the ones who aren't, weren't.
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Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
And scientifically, more paper does equal more work. It takes extra energy to lift that extra paper.
Though, I personally feel that the ITS is an improvement to the game. At the very least it allows for shopping between games now.
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Some people love those 6 page character sheets with huge empty spaces and large margins.
And some people prefer to condense everything down to as few sheets as possible.
I'm one of the latter.
For those that keep claiming the ITS isn't more paperwork, please understand that is your personal opinion, and nothing more.
Just because it isn't work for you doesn't mean it isn't for others.
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Some people love those 6 page character sheets with huge empty spaces and large margins.
And some people prefer to condense everything down to as few sheets as possible.
I'm one of the latter.
For those that keep claiming the ITS isn't more paperwork, please understand that is your personal opinion, and nothing more.
Just because it isn't work for you doesn't mean it isn't for others.
The difference between just being more paper and actually being more work is not an opinion.
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Personally, I've seen exactly zero benefit from the ITS. The people faithfully recording their purchases on it were faithfully recording purchases on their chronicles before anyway, and the ones who aren't, weren't.
The benefit to ensuring faithful recording, is simply that there is still a place to do so.
The real benefit of the ITS isn't about ensuring faithful record keeping. Its about John Compton having more space on the chronicles to do more cool stuff he couldn't do before
Literally, the ITS is only an enlarged version of the purchase boxes on the old chronicles.
That's it.
It isn't some new added and required accounting.
Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Indianapolis
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Off-topic: is it wrong that I just lol'ed while reading various comments about differences of opinion, being flat out wrong, etc.?
No, it's not wrong. And if it is, well, I don't want to be right.
[SARCASM]Continue, please, because this thread is increasingly becoming entertaining, and isn't straying close to the realm of personal attacks.[/SARCASM]
:)
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Personally, I've seen exactly zero benefit from the ITS. The people faithfully recording their purchases on it were faithfully recording purchases on their chronicles before anyway, and the ones who aren't, weren't.
I've found it very helpful to have all my purchases listed in one place. I might go several weeks between two sessions with a given PC, and a quick glance at that character's (latest) ITS gives me an easy overview of what's been going on for multiple sessions so I can get back into where they're at in their gear progression. Without the ITS, getting the same feel of their status/progress would require either flipping through the last few chronicles or looking through various sections of inventory (consumables, slotted items, etc) that aren't in chronological order and try to remember what's new within the last couple of sessions.
The ITS is a great reminder of the current state of my PC in relation to his/her ongoing development.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Indianapolis
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This. I use herolab, and In the gold/xp section I can note what I spend gold and prestige on in each scenario. From "shot 3 tangleshot arrows" to burned three charges from my clw wand." Even with this thought my accounting is poor at times. Like bnw, I use a lot of utility belt items, and it can be a pain.
I have started doing the same in Hero Lab. I still use the ITS, because it keeps those purchases to just a few pages (vs. the many pages of the print out from the HL journal). But, the HL journal is really a reminder for me (but I can put a lot more detail there than I could on a chronicle sheet or the ITS.)
Glad I'm not the only one who does this.
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BNW, I read back on page two that you use a spreadsheet to track your purchases, etc.
Since we're allowed to make our own ITS (as long as it contains the minimum data on the provided ITS), what's stopping you from adjusting your spreadsheet so it has the same info (Item bought, chronicle bought, chronicle used/sold) and printing that out instead of using the sample ITS?
Maybe we are wandering a little bit.
I think the most appropriate question is:
Should the ITS be mandated?
While I do not like the ITS, I do not suppose to believe that players ought not use it. You like ITS, then ITS on my brothers and sisters.
I, however, don't like the ITS. I think it wastes time and, as argued above, I don't think it really aides the auditor.
Therefore, why must I fill out the ITS if I am carefully calculating my purchases?
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Why do we have the ITS? Because in my area, there were some serious accounting problems on some characters because people had not gotten in the habit of making their purchases/equipment list able for other people to read. Mandating the ITS and occasional audits has mostly solved this problem, but if the ITS requirement goes away, I can see people going back to their old habits fairly easily. Due to the health and circumstances of my region, I cannot support and will actively fight any movement to make the ITS no longer mandatory.
(Also, there are some scenarios where I collect ITSs before the session. Glory of the Past 3 is a good example of this.)
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BNW, I read back on page two that you use a spreadsheet to track your purchases, etc.
Since we're allowed to make our own ITS (as long as it contains the minimum data on the provided ITS), what's stopping you from adjusting your spreadsheet so it has the same info (Item bought, chronicle bought, chronicle used/sold) and printing that out instead of using the sample ITS?
There's no good way to track an item that is both regularly bought and regularly used , especially if its not bought at the same rate that it's used. IF you insist on maintaining all of the information on the chronicle it starts to take up a lot of space.
Why do we have the ITS? Because in my area, there were some serious accounting problems on some characters because people had not gotten in the habit of making their purchases/equipment list able for other people to read. Mandating the ITS and occasional audits has mostly solved this problem, but if the ITS requirement goes away, I can see people going back to their old habits fairly easily. Due to the health and circumstances of my region, I cannot support and will actively fight any movement to make the ITS no longer mandatory.
(Also, there are some scenarios where I collect ITSs before the session. Glory of the Past 3 is a good example of this.)
Hmm...I haven't heard any auditors favor the ITS yet. James, do you think it is possible that the audits have more to do with positive change then the ITS? Did you try regular audits before the ITS?
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Personally, I've seen exactly zero benefit from the ITS. The people faithfully recording their purchases on it were faithfully recording purchases on their chronicles before anyway, and the ones who aren't, weren't.The benefit to ensuring faithful recording, is simply that there is still a place to do so.
The real benefit of the ITS isn't about ensuring faithful record keeping. Its about John Compton having more space on the chronicles to do more cool stuff he couldn't do before
Literally, the ITS is only an enlarged version of the purchase boxes on the old chronicles.
That's it.
It isn't some new added and required accounting.
And that problem is incredibly easy to solve without mandating addition paperwork. Just instruct players to fill out purchase on the back of their chronicle sheets. Problem solved.
Although, if we are being honest about the situation, I always have room to fill out my purchases on the blank space left on the front of the chronicle sheets, even the season 5 ones with lots of boon text.
Groups that are having problems with people messing up purchases can solve them by having audits and telling people to show up prepared for them. Again, audits happen neigh-infinitly less often than the end of every session played.
Common pracitise is that people aren't filling out their chronicles in entirey before the GM signs them. You can rage against it all you want, you can say it's illegal and that those characters can't be played anymore. It's not going to change the situation. As a GM, I'm never going to take 30 minuets after a session checking every players' math, making sure their information matches up to their last chronicle, and making sure they recorded their items purchased and used correctly. Especially when I only have 4 hours to run a game on weeknights before the comic shop closes for business and kicks us out. I'm going to fill out in pen the parts that depend on information I...
I'm sorry, I forgot. Audits are much more efficient and much less work than using an ITS.
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One other thing: Why do I seem to be the ONLY one, for or against the new sheet, who observes the problem of the new sheet making bookkeeping harder simply because it places purchases/sales and total gold spent per adventure on different sheets?
I subtotal my purchases by chronicle in the margins of the ITS, and then write that number on the actual chronicle.
Then they match, and are easy to tie.
Or do you mean that sometimes you spend money on things that aren't purchases? Those get written in the notes separately, and added to the subtotal.
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Signed:
I don't know why people are insisting that the ITS doesn't add more time to the paperwork at the end of the session, because that's a blatent lie. Just getting the PCs to fill out chronicle sheets before they are signed is so time consuming that most GMs in my area just fill out XP, PP, gold, and dayjob sections then sign and initial and leave the rest for the player to fill out later. ITS sheets can't be handled this way. That's a serious increase in the amount of time post game that needs to be devouted to record keeping. Many PFS venues have limited time between the end of the work day and when the store closes, so that extra recording keeping time comes at the expense of actual gameplay.
I know that it helps when auditing PCs, but this is really a tiny benifit compared to its cost. Character audits are performed very, very, very infrequently. And when they do happen, they are time consuming, even with the ITS. And doing a proper audit requires checking every Chronicle Sheet anyway. Adding time and hassle onto the end of every session is not worth saving a little time in an already time consuming task once in a blue moon.
The space on the chronicle sheets is much more important issue. And one that has an incredibly easy solution. Fill out your purchases on the backs of your chronicle sheets. You don't need anything printed on it, just a short sentence on the front instructing players to do so.
Finally, no one I know is actually following the ITS rules. Some players use them to help in record keeping, but I have never had a GM, in homeplay, play at local gaming stores, or games at local conventions, ever ask for ITS sheets to be signed. This includes games run by the venture captain for my area. I typically play PFS 5-6 times a months, so my experience in this matter isn't trivial.
The ITS sheet is a great aid for player record keeping. But making it mandatory and require GM signatures every session is not a positive change for the PFS community.
Seriously. The ITS does not need to be signed. Would you like a link? I have several I can find from Mr. Brock stating this over and over and over again. Seriously why do people still think we need to have the ITS signed?
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Maybe we are wandering a little bit.
I think the most appropriate question is:
Should the ITS be mandated?
While I do not like the ITS, I do not suppose to believe that players ought not use it. You like ITS, then ITS on my brothers and sisters.
I, however, don't like the ITS. I think it wastes time and, as argued above, I don't think it really aides the auditor.
Therefore, why must I fill out the ITS if I am carefully calculating my purchases?
If you use some sort of written documentation to keep track of yoru carefully calculated purchases, you can use that document as your ITS, as long as it tracks which Chronicle you bought the item(s) on, and which Chronicle, if any, any of the items got expended on.
So, if you have some sort of written documentation to support your "carefully calcuated purchases", you are on top of the game.
For those of you who want to use the back of your Chronicle to track purchases and items used, then that becomes your ITS.
So, what's your problem? If you trackl your purchases properly, you are using whatever you are tracking on as an ITS.
Now, for quick updates, and being able to tell at a glance what your PC has bought or sold or used recently, a separate ITS is better than the backs of Chronicles, simply because it offeres better organization.
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So...if the ITS doesn't have to be signed, how do we know it is legit and that they didn't fake it?
Do people really have time to check every single chronicle and every single ITS paper before every single game? (Not baiting, honestly wondering how people get that done)
And wouldn't you rather spend that time gaming?
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Maybe we are wandering a little bit.
I think the most appropriate question is:
Should the ITS be mandated?
Good start, but it still wouldn't be enough - I find the new sheet superfluous/wasteful/counterproductive, but at least as bad are the accompanying changes to Chronicles I've previously mentioned.
Polite Reminder: Please remember this is supposed to be a petition thread, so please mark "/signed" in addition to your comments if you haven't already (or am I just being endearingly naive by thinking that's important?).
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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So...if the ITS doesn't have to be signed, how do we know it is legit and that they didn't fake it?
We don't. But that's not the problem it's trying to address.
An ITS is meant to remind everybody that they're supposed to be keeping track of items (such as, say, charges on that wand of CLW or Mage Armor, or those potions of Fly, Oil of Daylight, etc.).
If you're playing at my table, and you suddenly pull out of your handy haversack exactly the scroll, potion, enchanted item, ... needed to deal with a problem, I might raise an eyebrow. The second time you do it, perhaps I'll ask you to tell me how long you've been carrying that around.
Sure, you can fake an ITS, just like you can 'correct' an equipment list on a character sheet today. But it's a whole lot more work if you're going to have to insert the purchase at just the right spot on a chronological record, and it's a lot easier to check two sheets of an ITS than it is to check every single one of a whole stack of chronicles.
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Due to the health and circumstances of my region, I cannot support and will actively fight any movement to make the ITS no longer mandatory.
I have to ask: Does your region presently consist of 4-7 reliable players, 1-3 (mostly 1) reliable DMs, a Venture-Captain who hangs on out of sheer dedication in spite of personal hardship, and *0* Venture-Lieutenants? Do your Pathfinder Society meetings have a sort of "Billy Joel's 'Piano Man'" feel to them?
In my region's time, it's had to deal with a lot of crap: A few cases of cheating, Extremely Unpleasant People (if you're unfamiliar with the sort I'm talking about, your life is charmed), flakes, ships-in-the-night, an aggressively small mind or two, the death of a widely-liked player (and their old friend, until then a very reliable player, never coming back afterwards), a moving-away or two, DMs quitting for reasons ranging from being upset by Paizo's handling of the Shadow Lodge to being scared away by the original organizer (the original organizer being an EUP who was eventually ostracized), and miscellaneous personality/scheduling conflicts a-go-go.One thing we've never had problems with? Accounting (with the exception of needing to correct the results of one honest mistake we'd made early on that forced me to recalculate the gold/Prestige awards/expenditures of one or two characters across multiple Chronicles - the new sheets, had they been around then, would only have made the process WORSE).
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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If you're playing at my table, and you suddenly pull out of your handy haversack exactly the scroll, potion, enchanted item, ... needed to deal with a problem, I might raise an eyebrow. The second time you do it, perhaps I'll ask you to tell me how long you've been carrying that around.
That saddens me.
You know why?
I was playing Ksenia and she got blinded. Gm asked my my action. I said "move: pull out my potion of remove blindness. Standard: drink it. Free: make a rude gesture to the bbeg."
"You have a potion of remove blindness?"
"Yup. Right next to the scroll of remove deafness."
I showed him the item on my herolab printout and we moved on. No concern i was chesting no need to dig through my its. When I got home I pit in the journal entry. "Used potion of remove blindness. Bought potion of remove blindness.". That was the end of it.
That you automatically become suspicious of a crazy prepared character worries me.
Samiel (my archeologist) has been carrying around an exlier of spirit sight and a stun stone for most of his career. That he carried them is going to make you doubt my honesty? No thank you.