Ever Game With the USA as Enemy?


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There is of course Barber's Jihad vs. McWorld thesis, but if you are against the evil tradition destroying globalism, then you are on the side of...


DM Under The Bridge wrote:

I like where you are going. Avatar and dances with wolves meets golarion?

Hmm, well I could see playing as the Shoanti vs Chels; but Dances with Wolves and Avatar are still American movies within an Americanist paradigm, Red Indians and Blue Aliens only get to be the 'goodies' because they're indigenous non-whites who pose no conceivable threat to US hegemony. I'd probably be more interested right now in playing the Slav/Orthodox analogues vs the Anglo-US analogues. Not particularly easy on Golarion where Cheliax and Brevoy are at opposite ends of the map. :) But an easier alternative would be a 'US in Latin America' theme, which could work with both Varisia (feels like temperate south America) and Garund (feels like tropical Caribbean, as well as Africa).

But my normal default is to see the Chels as 'us' and the Varisians/Shoanti/Garundi as 'other', even when the Chels are clearly the bad guys, so it'd take a bit of head work.

(I also just had a cool idea for a Syrian Civil War analogue set in Rahadoum with Rahadoumi PCs, involving the Cheliax Intelligence Agency and corrupt Garundi terrorist kingpins backing revolutionary religious fanatics against Rahadoum's enlightened secular rule... but the board ate it.)


Could work, but while I don't like the Shoanti much Cheliaxians and the weird Nidalese are DEFINITELY the bad guys.

So... Shoanti fight for freedom campaign.

Earlier in Varisian history could certainly be settlers vs. Indians.


Today I am prepping for a future intrigue heavy game, and I'm putting together a slightly US inspired country. It will have its deep south and old families clinging to the nobility of the old world, as well as enslaved native tribes in its power. It has some new prospering cities and there is great faith in the militia and old heroes, with quite the cult of the hero as defender of the migrating people trying to find and found a home.

The general idea is a new nation of half-drow (Drow that moved above and partially assimilated, partially adapted to the humanoids above), moving more than a touch away from the philosophies of their subterranean sisters. In this course, they are moving closer to egalitarianism (pardon the massive slavery) and away from the old matriarchy as this people have been cut off from their homeland, and experiment with new governance. They have unusual magic tech and have moved far away from the Llolth clericalism of the past. The old world has been cast aside, there is a new beginning and even the old complex Drow names have been simplified and standardised.

Controlling the slave trade is still crucial for them at this stage, but they are spreading out their merchants and trying to gain a real foothold and influence over neighbouring economies. They disdain suffering losses in battle, so they have a sort of Vietnam syndrome (the battles against the tribes were vicious, but the tactics of the half-Drow were crafty, cowardly and their victory near total) and don't have a great population base yet (a lot of slaves though). Most are now half drow with some of the old settlers still around and pulling the strings - founding fathers if you will.

Mentality and culture wise, these new settlers reject the old world (even as it still holds an influence over them) and have no respect for the cultures of the day. For all of these competing cultures are not like them and have not suffered like they have suffered, nor do they stand for a new, greater society destined to replace the old world in supremacy. These half-drow hold themselves to be truly exceptional, above all others whether old or also new. Their confidence makes diplomacy with others difficult, and their new merchant class are determined to make use of their neighbours and all that they possess (for now).

Their earth shaping and breaking magics are very strong and unusual, and they have a love of giant statues and garish symbols set in stone. The territory they moved into was the ruins of an old Dwarven empire, which has influenced their architecture so that this new people and their experimental society are connected to that which is old and alabaster.

Scarab Sages

The 8th Dwarf wrote:
Krensky wrote:
The 8th Dwarf wrote:
Except in ancient Carthage will always be bad guys.
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.
Cato wasn't wrong.

However you feel about the USA, you seem to really hate Carthage. That's...um...may I ask why?

Scarab Sages

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S'mon wrote:

I did recently have the idea that maybe Golarion's Cheliax is sort of a US analogue ca 2005-7, with Death of Aroden = 9/11 and the House of Thrune as the Bush clan (since Paizo seems pretty Lefty) >:) - I might do something with that, especially when I run 'Skull & Shackles' where Cheliax is an enemy. Would take a bit of tweaking though, since *everybody* on Golarion is pretty American. :)

Oh did you, now? "Recently?" I think I beat you to the punch, then (note my longer-term interpretation - I've been never-forgiving and never-forgetting nonstop since 2000, but I've learned that in the grand scheme of things, the Bush Regime was more symptom than cause).

S'mon wrote:


I don't have any visceral need to do an anti-American game, but I can imagine doing a fantasy analogue where a tiny band of brave traditionalists fight to defend their ancient way of life against the vast Globalist empire... in many countries "300" was seen as an *anti* American movie. >:D

That's genuinely interesting, especially since, as an American, 300 struck me as directly catering to some of the worst things about America, like fascism/the cult of masculinity, the bad guys conveniently happening to be "this decade's Them" (Middle Easterners), talking about "defending freedom" without understanding what it means (read Whose Freedom?: The Battle Over America's Most Important Idea, by George Lakoff), and, well, you know, stuff like that bit where Leonidas snickeringly refers to the Athenians as "boy-lovers" despite the fact that Sparta was the indisputable pederasty capital of the ancient world to the point that Spartans had to take absurd lengths to get men interested enough in their wives to perform the necessary function of procreation; that evil politician guy would never have raped Leonidas' wife - he'd have raped Leonidas himself, or his son from earlier in the movie (and if he'd done the latter, the next scene would have consisted of the two openly walking about Sparta together, with everyone they met congratulating them on having found someone). It didn't help that I'm a huge Phantom of the Opera fan, and in addition to the other failings of the 2004 movie, Gerrard Butler was the WORST PHANTOM IMAGINABLE - it would have been a big improvement if they'd taken him and the guy who played Raoul and switched them, but that still would have left the problem of: Butler being a horrible singer, the Phantom's supposedly horrible face just turning out to be some kind of rash, the anachronistic background dancers in the "Point of No Return" scene, and the FIREBALL SCENE IN THE GRAVEYARD BEING REPLACED WITH A CRAPPY SWORDFIGHT - THAT THE PHANTOM LOSES, AND RAOUL HAS TO SPARE HIM OUT OF MERCY???

Folks: If the play comes to your area, SEE IT - forget that movie.

S'mon wrote:
DM Under The Bridge wrote:

I like where you are going. Avatar and dances with wolves meets golarion?

Hmm, well I could see playing as the Shoanti vs Chels; but Dances with Wolves and Avatar are still American movies within an Americanist paradigm, Red Indians and Blue Aliens only get to be the 'goodies' because they're indigenous non-whites who pose no conceivable threat to US hegemony.

What bugs me about the assumption of "Na'vi = Indigenous Americans" is that it's a little myopic - it was very convenient that I had just been studying cultural anthropology not long before the movie came out; it greatly amplified my ability to appreciate it, since I was able to recognize more of what it was talking about. Na'vi culture as portrayed was more based on the !Kung, or Ju/'hoansi, of the Kalahari Desert (which some may be otherwise familiar with from the movie The Gods Must Be Crazy), most overtly in the scene where Sully is taught how to perform a "clean kill" by apologizing to his quarry as it dies.


Yes, not everything the native americans. There are other indigenous people too.

The history of colonialism is rife for use in rpgs, the problem is a repeat in themes I feel.


I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
The 8th Dwarf wrote:
Krensky wrote:
The 8th Dwarf wrote:
Except in ancient Carthage will always be bad guys.
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.
Cato wasn't wrong.
However you feel about the USA, you seem to really hate Carthage. That's...um...may I ask why?

One word - Tophet

As for the US it's over emphasised and frequently over done. I don't hate the US it just doesn't interest me when it comes to history... Because of the prevalence of US history/culture in the media other stories are lost.

WWII - The majority of the German army was destroyed by the Russians. Entire German divisions disappeared on the steppes, ground into the earth.

Korean War - I can choose from Canadians, Australians, British, Turks, and so on. why I want to go over the known history, why not educate my self about what the rest of the world was doing.

Vietnam - Australians, Koreans, New Zealanders, Thai, Taiwanese, all have interesting stories.

Scarab Sages

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The 8th Dwarf wrote:


One word - Tophet

Okay, I thought so - to my understanding, basically all support for that whole thing is based on writings we get from just about the two least trustworthy sources imaginable: the Israelites and the Romans. To use American analogies, that's like learning everything you know about people from New York and the California Bay Area from people from the Bible Belt (remember, Carthaginians=Phoenicians=Canaanites, roughly speaking), or learning everything you know about the Soviet Union from the John Birch Society. While it's difficult to rule out, there are way too many alternative explanations, holes, and resemblances to other situations we know of where innocent cultural misunderstandings were milked for libel-fuel to say with anything close to comfortable certainty that that was what happened.


Rome needed to eliminate Carthage so as to further its own ambitions. Knock out a competitor to allow Rome to spread further. Se we certainly cannot trust what the Romans say about their enemy Carthage.

Mmmmm libel-fuel.


I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
The 8th Dwarf wrote:


One word - Tophet
Okay, I thought so - to my understanding, basically all support for that whole thing is based on writings we get from just about the two least trustworthy sources imaginable: the Israelites and the Romans. To use American analogies, that's like learning everything you know about people from New York and the California Bay Area from people from the Bible Belt (remember, Carthaginians=Phoenicians=Canaanites, roughly speaking), or learning everything you know about the Soviet Union from the John Birch Society. While it's difficult to rule out, there are way too many alternative explanations, holes, and resemblances to other situations we know of where innocent cultural misunderstandings were milked for libel-fuel to say with anything close to comfortable certainty that that was what happened.

lots of archeological evidence for it.

In the Tophet of Salammbó, Carthage, about 20,000 urns were deposited between 400 BC and 200 BC,[12] with the practice continuing until the early years of the Christian period. The urns contained the charred bones of newborns and in some cases the bones of fetuses and 2-year-olds. These double remains have been interpreted to mean that in the cases of stillborn babies, the parents would sacrifice their youngest child.[15] There is a clear correlation between the frequency of sacrifice and the well-being of the city. In bad times (war, poor harvests) sacrifices became more frequent, indicating an increased assiduousness in seeking divine appeasement, or possibly a population-controlling response to the reduction of available food in these bad times,[9] or perhaps increased child mortality due to famine or disease.

Most archaeologists accept that infant sacrifices did occur. Lawrence E. Stager, who directed the excavations of the Carthage Tophet in the 1970s, with the view based on ancient texts that infant sacrifice was practiced there. Patricia Smith and colleagues from the Hebrew University and Harvard University show from the teeth and skeletal analysis at the Carthage Tophet that infant ages at death (about two months) do not correlate with the expected ages of natural mortality (perinatal).[16] Paolo Xella of the National Research Council in Rome summarized the textual, epigraphical, and archaeological evidence for Carthaginian infant sacrifice.[17]

12. a b Stager 1980, p. 3.
13. Jeffrey H. Schwartz, Frank Houghton, Roberto Macchiarelli, Luca Bondioli. Skeletal Remains from Punic Carthage Do Not Support Systematic Sacrifice of Infants. PLOS One. Published: February 17, 2010. DOI: 10.1371/journal.pone.0009177 http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0009177 accessed 23rd January 2014
14. Ribichini 1988, p. 141.
15. Stager 1980, p. 6.
16. Patricia Smith, Lawrence E. Stager, Joseph A. Greene and Gal Avishai. Archaeology. Volume: 87 Number: 338 Page: 1191–1199. Age estimations attest to infant sacrifice at the Carthage Tophet. http://antiquity.ac.uk/ant/087/ant0871191.htm accessed 23rd January 2014
17. Paolo Xella, Josephine Quinn, Valentina Melchiorri and Peter van Dommelen. Phoenician bones of contention. Volume: 87 Number: 338 Page: 1199–1207. http://antiquity.ac.uk/ant/087/ant0871199.htm accessed 17th February 2014


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8th Dwarf is right. While it is not yet a completely uncontroversial interpretation, our current understanding of the balance of evidence supports the idea of child killings, particularly in desperate times.

It's lucky that the Romans were able to come along and protect all the chil...

*whisper*

...dren... hm?

*whisper whisper*

What's that you say? The Romans slaughtered or enslaved pretty much the entire population of Carthage, without regard for age or sex?

Well so much for being better off afterwards then.


The 8th Dwarf wrote:


In the Tophet of Salammbó, Carthage, about 20,000 urns were deposited between 400 BC and 200 BC,[12] with the practice continuing until the early years of the Christian period. The urns contained the charred bones of newborns and in some cases the bones of fetuses and 2-year-olds. ...

Or maybe they had different burial rites for young children. charred remains don't mean they were alive when they were burnt. And I believe the infant mortality rate would have been high.

Which is my main reason for doubting it. Carthage was very successful. While adding massively to their infant mortality rate?


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They are separate cemeteries with only male children of a specific age bracket and the occasional animal none of which died of disease. Other Carthaginian cemeteries have a normal spread of ages and genders. Why single out one particular age bracket and gender?

Yep the Romans were far from being good guys and the Gladiatorial games were the Roman version of human sacrifice.

The Greeks not big on human sacrifice - would sell entire cities into slavery after killing all the useless and un-sellable.

Celts - head hunters and human sacrifice, the Germans very much the same...

Ancient world was a brutal deadly place - Arcadian utopia my hairy arse!

Liberty's Edge

Rifts from Palladium has the US as the enemy. Basically the Coalition States. Which began as the remains of the Us, Canada and Mexico armies after the coming of the Rifts. Over time became corrupted and evil. Turning from a democracy into a fascist government. Much of the CS tech is stuff the US was working on before the coming of the Rifts. To keep the average person dumb and stupid they change the look and origin story of much of their tech.

Liberty's Edge

The 8th Dwarf wrote:

They are separate cemeteries with only male children of a specific age bracket and the occasional animal none of which died of disease. Other Carthaginian cemeteries have a normal spread of ages and genders. Why single out one particular age bracket and gender?

Yep the Romans were far from being good guys and the Gladiatorial games were the Roman version of human sacrifice.

The Greeks not big on human sacrifice - would sell entire cities into slavery after killing all the useless and un-sellable.

Celts - head hunters and human sacrifice, the Germans very much the same...

Ancient world was a brutal deadly place - Arcadian utopia my hairy arse!

It is worth noting though that the games aren't properly human sacrifice, since death wasn't the guaranteed or, strictly speaking, intended outcome or goal of a match.

Not that there wasn't an element of it and the evidence suggests that the Romans picked the practice up from Carthage, but if you're looking for a 'good guy' in the Classical world during that timeframe, Rome's closer than a lot of civilizations.

The Celt's reputation as head-hunters and human sacrificers is almost assuredly overblown by the Romans. There's no real evidence of it as a major undertaking or phenomenon, and Macha's Mast was - as far as e can be tell - more about ritual disposal and offerings of war dead than the point of a battle.


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DM Under The Bridge wrote:


Hello everybody!

With the new Captain America movie coming out and part of it involving presenting the US and its warmongering in a negative light I wanted to hear what any of you had to say about the US in your games and have they been villains/the grand enemy.

I've played in a Vietnam game on the side of the US, I have fond memories of spec ops: the line, and I know plenty of games cover the US or something like it as a force in their settings. My question is has the US or its forces ever been the bad guys in any of your games, what were they like, how did you feel about that, would you like more of it in games?

Now if we could avoid invectives and keep this about settings, games and experiences that would be excellent. Possible war/conflict settings are on topic.

I played in a V20 game where the federal government was a convenient tool of the Technocracy, there were NWO agents operating out of government offices we encountered who had Iteration X terminator bots on call and there were Progenitors working on a nearby military base. They were a small subset of the antagonists in the game though with Baali, fellow Camarilla, Sabbat, Nikutu, werewolves, hunters, and even Cthulhu/Changeling the Lost and Prometheans showing up as adversaries.

I played a patriotic tea party conspiracy theorist/Kolchak the Night Stalker style blogger so I was pro America and anti-federal U.S. government from the start. This made not establishing an adversarial relationship with and starting a war with the secondary Technocracy elements of the campaign so I could focus on protecting people from the supernaturally powered Satanists bringing about the apocalypse a deliberatly frustrating part of the game.

Liberty's Edge

Voadam wrote:

I played in a V20 game where the federal government was a convenient tool of the Technocracy, there were NWO agents operating out of government offices we encountered who had Iteration X terminator bots on call and there were Progenitors working on a nearby military base. They were a small subset of the antagonists in the game though with Baali, fellow Camarilla, Sabbat, Nikutu, werewolves, hunters, and even Cthulhu/Changeling the Lost and Prometheans showing up as adversaries.

I played a patriotic tea party conspiracy theorist/Kolchak the Night Stalker style blogger so I was pro America and anti-federal U.S. government from the start. This made not establishing an adversarial relationship with and starting a war with the secondary Technocracy elements of the campaign so I could focus on protecting people from the supernaturally powered Satanists bringing about the apocalypse a deliberatly frustrating part of the game.

Look on the plus side.

You didn't get turned into a lawnchair.

The Exchange

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Aside from rarely being in a real-Earth setting where the US is an element, there's another good reason for an American citizen like me not to admit to portraying the US as a tool of villainy - my government has a distressing tendency to confuse role-playing games with reality (remember the GURPS espionage fiasco?), and in 2001 it granted itself the legal authority to drag its poor* off to be imprisoned for as long as they like for no reason at all. (For freedom!)

* Technically they have the right to do this to rich people too, but let's be realistic here.


Krensky wrote:
Voadam wrote:

I played in a V20 game where the federal government was a convenient tool of the Technocracy, there were NWO agents operating out of government offices we encountered who had Iteration X terminator bots on call and there were Progenitors working on a nearby military base. They were a small subset of the antagonists in the game though with Baali, fellow Camarilla, Sabbat, Nikutu, werewolves, hunters, and even Cthulhu/Changeling the Lost and Prometheans showing up as adversaries.

I played a patriotic tea party conspiracy theorist/Kolchak the Night Stalker style blogger so I was pro America and anti-federal U.S. government from the start. This made not establishing an adversarial relationship with and starting a war with the secondary Technocracy elements of the campaign so I could focus on protecting people from the supernaturally powered Satanists bringing about the apocalypse a deliberatly frustrating part of the game.

Look on the plus side.

You didn't get turned into a lawnchair.

I did at one point have to cut off my own leg near the hip to stop injected self-replecating nanobots from spreading to the rest of my body.

Worse. My conscientious Libertarian Malkavian became the Prince of Albuquerque!

Scarab Sages

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The 8th Dwarf wrote:

Celts - head hunters and human sacrifice, the Germans very much the same...

I forget where I read this, but I did read something about an Ancient Celtic stele (or something like that) relating a story of a tribe suffering from (I think) famine, and preparing to offer a sacrifice. They ask the tribe for volunteers - and the chief's son steps up. The chief begs his son not to do it, but his son insists. It certainly helps to better, shall we say, humanize the institution of human sacrifice.

The 8th Dwarf wrote:


Ancient world was a brutal deadly place - Arcadian utopia my hairy arse!

The "ancient world" spans a LOT of time and space (even if you're confining yourself to Europe and the Mediterranean) - I understand the works of Jared Diamond are a both-quality-and-convenient source that addresses this whole issue.

Voadam wrote:


Worse. My conscientious Libertarian Malkavian became the Prince of Albuquerque!

Did you decree that henceforth, there shall be Shriners and lepers playing ukeleles all day long stationed throughout the city, and that the air shall smell like warm root beer?


Child-sacrifice justifies annihilating a whole people so that you can become the biggest and nastiest slavery practicing empire of conquerors around?

Pardon? Carthage were the bad guys?

Dark Archive

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I thought the entire point of RPG was to be far away from Reality as one could get? Sadly sound like a lame idea mate. Good luck with that.


Actually the USA makes an excellent opponent, and a variety of Occidentalist movements and peoples have thought so. That it is the hegemonic bad guy continues to have a wide purchase. Therefore I don't quite get the "lame idea" part of it.

Rpgs as getting far from reality? Well, cultures and geography get used as inspiration and copied so very often, so I don't think getting far away from reality really is the entire point of rpgs.


I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:


Voadam wrote:


Worse. My conscientious Libertarian Malkavian became the Prince of Albuquerque!
Did you decree that henceforth, there shall be Shriners and lepers playing ukeleles all day long stationed throughout the city, and that the air shall smell like warm root beer?

Nah, the closest I got to Fish Malk was being a little racy during the manic phases of manic depression and rapid fire talking about multiple supernatural plots and Eyes of Chaos visions without explaining context for others.

My decrees were "Follow the Traditions, don't be a monster." "The five Tremere who did not obey the Tradition of Presentation are under a Blood Hunt until they do." and "The Sabbat are making moves. I'm getting ready for a war, but seeing if it can be avoided. Be aware and ready if I call on you."


Krensky wrote:

It is worth noting though that the games aren't properly human sacrifice, since death wasn't the guaranteed or, strictly speaking, intended outcome or goal of a match.

Not that there wasn't an element of it and the evidence suggests that the Romans picked the practice up from Carthage, but if you're looking for a 'good guy' in the Classical world during that timeframe, Rome's closer than a lot of civilizations.

I think it's probably a mistake to look for a 'good guy' civilization in the classical world. And I'm not aware of any evidence that gladiatorial games came to Rome via Carthage. Is that what you meant?

Oh, um, I suppose this is a bit derailing. Yeah, I play against USA sometimes.

Liberty's Edge

Voadam wrote:
I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:


Voadam wrote:


Worse. My conscientious Libertarian Malkavian became the Prince of Albuquerque!
Did you decree that henceforth, there shall be Shriners and lepers playing ukeleles all day long stationed throughout the city, and that the air shall smell like warm root beer?

Nah, the closest I got to Fish Malk was being a little racy during the manic phases of manic depression and rapid fire talking about multiple supernatural plots and Eyes of Chaos visions without explaining context for others.

My decrees were "Follow the Traditions, don't be a monster." "The five Tremere who did not obey the Tradition of Presentation are under a Blood Hunt until they do." and "The Sabbat are making moves. I'm getting ready for a war, but seeing if it can be avoided. Be aware and ready if I call on you."

I call shenanigans.

Unless you were wearing a funny hat or dressed like a clown, of course.

Scarab Sages

Coriat wrote:

I think it's probably a mistake to look for a 'good guy' civilization in the classical world.

Again "the classical world" spans a LOOOOOONG stretch of history (as in, still the majority of recorded history by far) - you'll find "good guy civilizations," but you'll have to look closer up at individual stretches of history, and in many cases, farther back or further out of the way (for example, the Roman Republic as opposed to the Imperium, Athens at its best, or the Minoans; there was also a lot to be said for Ancient Egypt).

Liberty's Edge

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What do you mean by 'The U.S.' if you mean the people of the country as a whole...no. If you mean the government, sure. I don't tend to think the U.S. government qualifies for villain status in real life...but it certainly comes close some days. More than close enough for a near-future or slightly alternate world to have it be such a villain.

And besides, I'm a libertarian, I just generally approve of governments as main villains (or major corporations, those work too).


Been reading up on drones terrifying the non-combatants as regions.

Perhaps an amusing fantasy equivalent would be a "light on the hill" oligarchy that terrorises its enemies with hordes of gargoyles and casts this favourably with firm influence and bardic propaganda.

Liberty's Edge

DM Under The Bridge wrote:

Been reading up on drones terrifying the non-combatants as regions.

Perhaps an amusing fantasy equivalent would be a "light on the hill" oligarchy that terrorises its enemies with hordes of gargoyles and casts this favourably with firm influence and bardic propaganda.

Scy and Fry or the use of constructs would be more accurate representations of drone strikes than self-willed Evil entities, IMO.

You can obviously either add some moral complexity to the situation or not as you choose.


They would have to be flying constructs though, for that real terror from above feel.

Moral complexity? To hunt down a radical cult, the constructs are being used to attack whole countries. The civilian death toll is kind of screaming upwards. Adventurers are needed to stop this menace!


Krensky wrote:
Voadam wrote:
I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:


Voadam wrote:


Worse. My conscientious Libertarian Malkavian became the Prince of Albuquerque!
Did you decree that henceforth, there shall be Shriners and lepers playing ukeleles all day long stationed throughout the city, and that the air shall smell like warm root beer?

Nah, the closest I got to Fish Malk was being a little racy during the manic phases of manic depression and rapid fire talking about multiple supernatural plots and Eyes of Chaos visions without explaining context for others.

My decrees were "Follow the Traditions, don't be a monster." "The five Tremere who did not obey the Tradition of Presentation are under a Blood Hunt until they do." and "The Sabbat are making moves. I'm getting ready for a war, but seeing if it can be avoided. Be aware and ready if I call on you."

I call shenanigans.

Unless you were wearing a funny hat or dressed like a clown, of course.

Does a rumpled cheap suit, old reporter style hat, and over wide tie from the 70's count?

Malkavians were not jokes in this campaign. Neither the storyteller or I liked that type of Malkavian characterization and silliness. The Malkavians of our game mostly fell into categories of Prophets, Monsters, or Crazies. The old Malkavian Prince was paranoid and psychopathic (like most every other non-Malkavian Prince), the Primogen was a sadistic monster with super prophet powers, about a third of the city's vamps bound to her, and nothing goofy at all.

Liberty's Edge

Eh. That was one of the biggest problem with the Revised books, they stripped the whimsey out of everything.

;)

Marauders and quiets were so much more boring. :)

Scarab Sages

Voadam wrote:
Krensky wrote:
Voadam wrote:
I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:


Voadam wrote:


Worse. My conscientious Libertarian Malkavian became the Prince of Albuquerque!
Did you decree that henceforth, there shall be Shriners and lepers playing ukeleles all day long stationed throughout the city, and that the air shall smell like warm root beer?

Nah, the closest I got to Fish Malk was being a little racy during the manic phases of manic depression and rapid fire talking about multiple supernatural plots and Eyes of Chaos visions without explaining context for others.

My decrees were "Follow the Traditions, don't be a monster." "The five Tremere who did not obey the Tradition of Presentation are under a Blood Hunt until they do." and "The Sabbat are making moves. I'm getting ready for a war, but seeing if it can be avoided. Be aware and ready if I call on you."

I call shenanigans.

Unless you were wearing a funny hat or dressed like a clown, of course.

Does a rumpled cheap suit, old reporter style hat, and over wide tie from the 70's count?

Malkavians were not jokes in this campaign. Neither the storyteller or I liked that type of Malkavian characterization and silliness. The Malkavians of our game mostly fell into categories of Prophets, Monsters, or Crazies. The old Malkavian Prince was paranoid and psychopathic (like most every other non-Malkavian Prince), the Primogen was a sadistic monster with super prophet powers, about a third of the city's vamps bound to her, and nothing goofy at all.

I must have unwittingly struck oil while shootin' at some food - do you realize I was referring to this?


Anyone get involved in oil wars with the USA involved?

I mean at the table, not in real life of course.

Liberty's Edge

*cough*Car Wars*cough*


fortress america is an old boardgame... i think i saw it mentioned as i scanned the board..... also there are a super host of ww2 games that let you play the Nazis......


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I have had great mileage with the USA as an enemy. But then I am a Cyberpunk GM, and ALL governments are corrupt enemies looking to exploit the masses for their corporate masters.

Liberty's Edge

Aranna wrote:
I have had great mileage with the USA as an enemy. But then I am a Cyberpunk GM, and ALL governments are corrupt enemies looking to exploit the masses for their corporate masters.

Are you sure you aren't talking about real life, there?

I'm only half kidding...


Aranna wrote:

I have had great mileage with the USA as an enemy. But then I am a Cyberpunk GM, and ALL governments are corrupt enemies looking to exploit the masses for their corporate masters.

Sounds good. Could you tell me a bit more Aranna?

Silver Crusade

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I once developed a US-as-enemy for a now-defunct company's now-defunct fan club. The premise was that a corrupt war spirit born from the colonialist massacre of the Pequot at Mystic River guided the formation of the country and that the founding fathers were the core of its cult. It guided the American people through genocides and wars to increase its power, until it surpassed any of the other nation-spirits in the world; the game's plot was about its attempt to achieve godhood and the players attempting to prevent that without leading to the collapse of the United States.

Of course, in the intervening centuries, it had expanded its power and control through the nation's government and infrastructure and had plenty of proxies and influences to interfere with PCs, which is where most of the conflict lay.


That is... really cool.

So much plausible tie in with history as well, assuming mystical genocide spirits of course.

Were they set to encounter many a rambling cultist that could reveal just a tiny piece of the puzzle? Driven mad by partial glimpses of how enormous this spirit had become.

U,S,A! U,S,A! Controlled by a god of genocide.

Silver Crusade

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The thing about the cultists wasn't that they were rambling, crazy fools. They were dangerously intelligent and psychotic power-mongers who traded away their humanity to a corrupt god-to-be to pursue their ambitions; they chaired Senate committees, directed major corporations, and led religious movements. The cult was deadly not only because it was powerful, but because the people in it were ruthless and smart (and they had to be, to survive in the organization).


DM Under The Bridge wrote:
Aranna wrote:

I have had great mileage with the USA as an enemy. But then I am a Cyberpunk GM, and ALL governments are corrupt enemies looking to exploit the masses for their corporate masters.

Sounds good. Could you tell me a bit more Aranna?

Well it isn't very complicated. In dark near future games like Cyberpunk governments like the US government are excellent enforcers of the oppression the players will be fighting against. At first your PCs should be unknown by the powers at large so focus on having the Feds roll into a poor neighborhood and take it over under eminent domain laws in order allow a big Japanese Corporation to build new commercial properties. Perhaps one or more of the PCs have relatives living here and losing everything as the government sweeps everyone out. The PCs will fight back by raiding government sites for proof of the corruption to present to the people via the Rocker or Media PCs fan base. But later on as the PCs build successful names for themselves the government may take a more direct role against the PCs by making them FBI most wanted targets for any number of crimes against their corporate masters.


Coriat wrote:

8th Dwarf is right. While it is not yet a completely uncontroversial interpretation, our current understanding of the balance of evidence supports the idea of child killings, particularly in desperate times.

It's lucky that the Romans were able to come along and protect all the chil...

*whisper*

...dren... hm?

*whisper whisper*

What's that you say? The Romans slaughtered or enslaved pretty much the entire population of Carthage, without regard for age or sex?

Well so much for being better off afterwards then.

Yea and the Romans sacrificed their own citizens in an attempt to regain the favor of Mars after the battle of Cannae at the hands of Hannibal. Sacrifice, even human sacrifice was not the sole province of any one ancient people although some certainly practiced it with more regularity.


On the topic of the thread ...

I find it pretty funny when people complain about the U.S. acting just like any other country to protect its interests. The only difference is the U.S. has capabilities far beyond most countries. The British would still be in charge of an empire if they had the ability to do so, but they don't. Same with the French, the Russians are actively gunning for more right now, same with the Chinese with their flexing in the western pacific region. Iran would currently be attacking their neighbors if they could just get away with it...and why can't China just take Taiwan, Russia the Baltic states or Poland, Iran the gulf states, you know the reason so perhaps the U.S. deserves a little bit of credit.

Countries act in their own best interests to the best of their abilities, it is hypocrisy to say anything different.

Silver Crusade

Just because Y does it, doesn't make it OK for X to do it.


|dvh| wrote:


Just because Y does it, doesn't make it OK for X to do it.

The point Mike is making is that nobody has ever *not* done it. You may feel free to hate them all of course :)


Yep. Quite a lot

Anti-revolutionary game where Washington dies early on and General B Arnold saves the colonies

Post apocalypse game where the new new new USA are very evil n ruthless

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