[PFS] *sigh* Paladins?


Advice

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Dark Archive

I'm working on a new character for PFS and I have been tossing around a bunch of ideas, ranging from Voodoo Witch Doctor styled Witches to Zangief styled Tetori Monks but as I try towork out what character to play, a realization came over me.

Where are all the Paladins? I have been playing regularly for the past few months now and not once have I seen a Paladin. And I have a theory why. And it is amazing because it is a single word theory: Murderhobo.

Is it impossible to play a Paladin in PFS? My current character, someone I thought was going to be a morally gray Rogue, has been appalled at some of the things that have happened in our weekly games and I wonder if a Paladin, even one who is not Lawful Stupid, could actually hang out with the people associated with the society.

Spoiler:
Without going into any spoilerly detail, one week, two GMs were running the same scenario at different tables at my LFGS. During the scenario, we learn an NPC might stumble upon us. My group decided to place a host of traps for this NPC and when he appeared, traps nearly killed him. He tried to talk to us and ask for help and the group chased him off. The other table did not set traps, but when the guy asked for help (looking for an item in the dungeon), they straight up murdered the guy because "How dare he ask us for loot!" ...in a game where everyone gets the loot after the event! XD

Also, I just realized that a good chunk of people will read this and be like "Yeah, whats the problem?"

What do you guys think? Am I correct or is there another reason why Paladins just aren't represented in PFS often? And what kind of advice would you give to someone thinking about doing it? I have no clue what I am going to be making, but heck, maybe seeing some responses might help.

Grand Lodge

Man, Paladins are dime a dozen in my area. I've got one now that plays just fine. I've even seen Hell Knight Paladins.

Not all areas are the same and not all players play like Murderhobos.

If you try some online PbP PFS or in another area I think you may find a different experience.

That said people do tend towards 'grey' backgrounds because of what Pathfinders are but I've seen some pretty clean personalities played irrespective of class.

Sovereign Court

I'm playing a paladin in PFS and it's a lot of fun. I think it's an area thing.

Here, people seem a bit more inclined to play nice when there's a paladin present, but so far that's not a problem with the scenarios involved. They involve a little bit of bending the truth, but not doing actual BAD things. I figure, I'm not allowed to lie. But if lies are needed for the greater good, I'll just stand in the back and let someone else talk.


I've seen lots of paladins in society, and I myself have two (one is a stonelord or Torag though, so he barely counts as one).

Scarab Sages

I've never played a PFS game without a paladin, and twice I've been in a group with two paladins. By contrast, I've never seen someone playing a wizard.


Never had a Paladin in a PFS game, either as DM or Player.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Seem lots of them here. Actually ran a four man confirmation table with two Paladins.


I also have 2 wizards in pfs, one of them is my seeker character!

But wizards do seem pretty rare in society, seems most people prefer sorcerers.

Silver Crusade

Out of my 7 character numbers, 3 have Paladin levels and 3 have wizard levels (in each case, 2 full or almost full, 1 dip). I'm playing the seeker arc right now and 2 of our 5 are paladins and a 3rd has 3 paladin levels.

Lots of both around here.


Plenty of players play jerk murderhobos. Unfortunately, plenty of players play jerk paladins too. Anyone can be a murderhobo (except maybe a paladin), so murderhobos are more common.

I thought you couldn't be evil in PFS, but that's a system where the DM has almost no authority.

Shadow Lodge

I think it has to do with the high amounts of slightly-less-than-legal and less-than-good activity the Pathfinder Society indulges in quite often. But I have seen paladins in PFS before, and sometimes I wish I hadn't. I knew one guy who thought being a Paladin meant that everything you do is good and justified, and that he could kill an unarmed opponent who had surrendered and was incapable of defending himself, because the guy didn't immediately apologize. Also thought he could eat formerly sentient creatures. Hehe, that Pally fell from grace quickly enough.


The problem from my experience is that the Society is portrayed in PFS to be more like their rivals the Aspis Constortium than the Pathfinder Society in the non-PFS source material. PFS portrays them as unscrupulous thieves and mercenaries a lot of the time land so its no wonder that players follow suit.


Ya, though they are quite obviously trying to move away from that in later seasons, which I actually like the greyness area. Like there are missions where if you don't rob a (mostly) innocent merchant you loose a good chunk of your wealth for the mission. I actually liked that grey area stuff but the are trying to make it.more black and white. Consequently, they have also attempted to change what it takes to succeed as a pathfinder, which I think was a terrible idea on their part.


All areas are different but I would say that on the whole paladins would be among in top 2 for PFS since we know that u can't be evil and evil acts are not wanted. Paladins are rock solid for any table or player to build on and can do almost any job but skill monkey. In later material the alignments and feel of the stories become more gray so that may be why lately ur not seeing as many. Keep in mind that ur supposed to only play one paladin character ever.


There's a BIG problem in PFS sessions that breaks down into two parts -

1) It's easier getting the mission accomplished being a 'jerk'. Intimidate that clerk, break in to that warehouse - killing those 'watchmen', etc etc.

2) No real long term lasting effect for being a 'jerk'.
That 'clerk' you intimidated doesn't put the 'word' out about you. Those 'watchmen' you beat up/killed in town, even if evil, doesn't get you into trouble with the city watch. Etc etc.

Scarab Sages

I had my biweekly PFS game today. One paladin showed up and insisted on stabilizing all enemies not killed outright, even during combat.

Silver Crusade

At one of our gamedays, there was an all-Paladin table run. They finished the scenario much more quickly and easily than the rest of us.


MaxXimenez wrote:
I had my biweekly PFS game today. One paladin showed up and insisted on stabilizing all enemies not killed outright, even during combat.

This isn't particularly unusual. My druids and clerics often do this. Cleric one is a follower of Calistria, he doesn't like killing his opponents because its crueler to be saved by your opponent. The cleric of Gorum only kills in combat. Knocked out enemies that had the fortitude to survive meeting him deserve a chance to engage in battle at another time. The druid just doesn't like to kill if he or his badger isn't going to eat it. Don't waste meat and all that.

My local area has one guy who only plays paladins. As such we see him and a couple of randoms every week. We don't get as many wizards as most wizard types try other classes rather than deal with the no crafting railroads that PFS is. They are a pain to navigate the low levels with and most of the higher level power is highly constrained by PFS rules and mission structure.


Yeah, also taking my Paladin through Seeker Arc right now. I have played with a good number of Paladins. Admittedly scenarios can push you to taking the easy way out morally, and most Pathfinder Paladins probably do have a little note on their records "Considered a Falling Danger". However outside one scenario I have never seen Pathfinder actively punish someone for being Lawful Good.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

I rock a sword and board paladin who alternates between defending his allies with Covering Defense and being the main front liner. He only does real damage when smiting, but his AC and saves are usually enough to give him the endurance to outlast the enemies best options.

Silver Crusade

I have a couple of paladins myself. I also have a wizard, a mystic theurge ( cleric/wizard) and an arcanist.

I see paladins every so often. I see wizards every so often....sorcerers are more common I think.

Up thread i think someone mentioned that there are regional differences.


Its a little rough.

The society is basically the second largest organization for smuggling on golarion. A LOT of what they do is underhanded and outright illegal. Toss on that the entangled table variation of alignment, no reason to pump intelligencem low skill points and you're cruising for a bruising.


I think the 'temporary' nature of PFS scenarios tend to discourage role-play and character development in favor of mechanical effectiveness... and since the Paladin is really the only class that has a built-in mechanical penalty for a role-playing transgression, that can make it a tough sell. I also think that you'll see a lot more of them in areas with GM's who don't make 'getting the paladin to fall' one of their priorities.

Liberty's Edge

btw.. the topic for this thread is a bit well off. It reads like you are sigh.. annoyed/tired with Paladins.

To your point though. I bet a lot of new Paladins hit the scene in Season 5 with the worldwound and all. Lots of otherworldly creatures to slay and so on.

The Paladin should be the moral compass of the party or lead by example. When the characters in your group want to kill the npc because 'hes annoying and a dick' then its up to the Paladin to stand up for the npc and disuade people from doing so.

We have a fair few Paladins locally , most are the 2 handed weapon types.

Grand Lodge

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We have a variety of Paladins locally, yesterday we had the Seelah pregen being used at our table, while the other table's GM is one of the folks locally who runs a Paladin.

As an online player/GM, I see a bunch of Paladins in the online games, usually in mid-to-high-tier tables.

Locally, we do have some Wizards. I have one in my stable, another local loves them, but is using PFS to play other types of PCs that he is not as familiar/comfortable with. I have seen other Wizards, and arcane casters of various types, around our tables.

A lot of experienced gamers, in my experience, tend to use PFS as a testing grounds for PCs of types they don't normally use. That's how I do it, myself. My area of preference, for example, is ranged fighters, but I think I only have about 4 of them in my stable of PFS PCs, but I also have 4 sorcerers, 1 wizard, 2 maguses, 1 rogue, a couple of trip/disarm builds, 1 bard, and a couple of GM credit blobs in the wings...


Most of the Paladins I've seen at my table are Gishes with sorcerers, and possibly a level in Oracle to let Cha act as Dex in terms of AC, and then EK from then on. Don't doubt the power of being able to eventually add your CHA to AC 4 times with the right features/feats/magical items. The paladin aspect (add Cha to saves) just makes them all the more invulnerable.
I've seen them come in terms of
(Pal2/Ora1/Sor1/EK06/Mystery Cultist 10)
(Pal2/Ora1/Sor1/EK10/Hell Knight Enforcer6)
(Pal2/Synth18)
(Pal4/Sor16)
(Pal2/Monk1/Ora1/Synth1/Sor1/EK10/HKE4) (This was the stupid high AC build)
(Pal2/Monk4/Ora1/Synth1/Sor1/EK10/HKE4) (This was the stupid high ranged AC build)

Most of the Wizards have been gishes with EK, synth, and others in it.
Wizards tend to be a little less on the optimal side compared to the Sorc, but have other powers to make up for it.

Grand Lodge

I play a paladin hospitaler online. Honestly, i have a great time playing lawful and playing good (aka not lawful stupid). The greatest moment I his career thus far was after another player had gone down, and I had fought them off while standing over his unconscious form (not single handedly mind, there were 3 other players there doing most of the damage, i helped him back up, emptied my wand of healing and a large number of lay on hands for the day, and used my scroll of lesser restoration to get him back to fighting fit. The guy was ecstatic. He had basically written off his character as dead, and was so grateful to be not just alive, but back to fighting fit. He backed up my paladin for the rest of the session. When we took prisoners and one guy wanted to kill them, he was right there backing me up in saying "awwww hell naw".

Long story short- I play my paladin sub optimally. I spend large amounts of my character wealth and resources helping a bunch of strangers that I will not ever likely see again. And it feels great.

Side not- my summoner is selfish as all hell, and is more than willing to leave the entire party in the lurch if things get ugly. Just in case you got the mistaken impression that I was secretly a good person. I make characters, and then play them to role.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

MaxXimenez wrote:
I had my biweekly PFS game today. One paladin showed up and insisted on stabilizing all enemies not killed outright, even during combat.

Heck, my Sczarni Archeologist tries not to kill humans and the like. Dead people are bad for business.

Silver Crusade

"Every day I help wage war on the forces of the World Wound to help protect Mendev and the World from being overrun by the evils within."

-Darius Ellon


My PFS paladin is now level 9, and he hasn't been on a single Society mission that required him to violate his code or his faith. His Phylactery of Faithfulness is as untested as the day he bought it.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

My local group, when they were playing had a pretty decent paladin population.

The bulk of the players do follow the murdering home invasion archetype sadly. My main is more of a pacifist...prefers capturing and his main offensive abilities debilitate or knock out rather than inflict lethal damage.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Matt2VK wrote:

There's a BIG problem in PFS sessions that breaks down into two parts -

1) It's easier getting the mission accomplished being a 'jerk'. Intimidate that clerk, break in to that warehouse - killing those 'watchmen', etc etc.

In the Destiny of the Sands trilogy, it's an excellent way of denying yourself a secondary success, or failing the mission entirely.


Calybos1 wrote:

My PFS paladin is now level 9, and he hasn't been on a single Society mission that required him to violate his code or his faith. His Phylactery of Faithfulness is as untested as the day he bought it.

What scenarios? Either you're incredibly lucky or you have a really loose definition of that code.

Dark Archive

After tonight's game, I have played at least one game with generally every player in our group of Pathfinders (I think we number around 30, so thats a lot), and tonight's session alone would have caused just about any Paladin to fall from grace... There was debauchery, murder and pillaging... and that was the players!

I thought about trying to create a Paladin to act as a good example. I might still do so.

Edit: Oh yeah, and animal abuse. When the GM put a group of dogs on the table, the who group made a collective groan about having to kill them, then went about killing them in grisly manners. (with no thought about not murdering them! lol)


Zedorland wrote:

I play a paladin hospitaler online. Honestly, i have a great time playing lawful and playing good (aka not lawful stupid). The greatest moment I his career thus far was after another player had gone down, and I had fought them off while standing over his unconscious form (not single handedly mind, there were 3 other players there doing most of the damage, i helped him back up, emptied my wand of healing and a large number of lay on hands for the day, and used my scroll of lesser restoration to get him back to fighting fit. The guy was ecstatic. He had basically written off his character as dead, and was so grateful to be not just alive, but back to fighting fit. He backed up my paladin for the rest of the session. When we took prisoners and one guy wanted to kill them, he was right there backing me up in saying "awwww hell naw".

Long story short- I play my paladin sub optimally. I spend large amounts of my character wealth and resources helping a bunch of strangers that I will not ever likely see again. And it feels great.

Side not- my summoner is selfish as all hell, and is more than willing to leave the entire party in the lurch if things get ugly. Just in case you got the mistaken impression that I was secretly a good person. I make characters, and then play them to role.

This guy gets it.

A paladin is an ideal not a character out to optimize himself, but make the party do the best they can with him as an ACTIVE example.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Calybos1 wrote:

My PFS paladin is now level 9, and he hasn't been on a single Society mission that required him to violate his code or his faith. His Phylactery of Faithfulness is as untested as the day he bought it.

What scenarios? Either you're incredibly lucky or you have a really loose definition of that code.

Not at all. Among others, he's done

#2-19: Shades of Ice—Part III: Keep of the Huscarl King
#3-09: The Quest for Perfection—Part I: The Edge of Heaven
#3-11: The Quest for Perfection—Part II: On Hostile Waters
#37: The Beggar's Pearl
#3-13: The Quest for Perfection—Part III: Defenders of Nesting Swallow
#5: Mists of Mwangi
#8: Slave Pits of Absalom
#4–21: Way of the Kirin
#4–11: The Disappeared
#4–05: The Sanos Abduction
#5–03: The Hellknight's Feast
Rise of the Runelords - Burnt Offerings
#5–07: Port Godless - Yes, Port Godless was no problem for a paladin.
#5–14: Day of the Demon

It's certainly possible to play PFS scenarios as an amoral, violent sociopath; it may even be 'easier' from some perspectives. But it's never been necessary.


MaxXimenez wrote:
I had my biweekly PFS game today. One paladin showed up and insisted on stabilizing all enemies not killed outright, even during combat.

Now that is an example of lawfull stupid. It certainly is not forbidden for paladins to save enemies, but it's not required at all costs.

If there's a good reason for sparing a life, for instance if you want to bring them to justice and are close to authorities or need intelligence, then such an action might be usefull. But generally speaking a paladin does not need to bend over backwards to safe the lives of his enemies.
Getting a knife and killing all bleeding fallen anemies is another matter, but desperately saving your enemies life is not required as a paladin.
I think that as a paladin it's important to define your guidelines as you start playing a paladin: not lying, being truthfull, show mercy when you can and your wrath if you must. Being chivalrous, righteous and an example to others. I am always a little ambivalent about the paladins do not retreat rule as I think it would be cruel to condemn everyone to death just because you stubbornly fight on against the odds.
I always tend to make sure that the paladin is not cowardly in combat, but retreating and surviving to fight another day is definetly honorable. If the paladin dies his/her followers friends are left without their protector and that responsibility is upon the paladin's shoulders as well.
If the entire party is heavily damaged and the paladin is at full health, I think it's reasonable for the paladin to retreat in order to minimize the chances of casualties for his companions. And I believe that a loud retreat performed by the Paladin in order to draw the enemy to himself instead of his companions is a very heroic action.
The rule that states paladin's must accept an invitation to personal combat is shaky as well as knights indeed lost great personal honor if they refused, but not everyone was allowed to challenge a knight (technically only other knights were allowed to do this). And the challenged knight may choose weapons so if you are challenged go for the joust.
The code of chivalry off course did demand that a paladin would be an example in appearance, deeds and virtue at all times. Protect the innocent and the weak, respect legitimate authority and act with honor.


MaxXimenez wrote:
I had my biweekly PFS game today. One paladin showed up and insisted on stabilizing all enemies not killed outright, even during combat.

I would do the same on my lawful neutral asmodeus worshipping sorcerer. Casually murdering people is something I generally prefer to avoid even if a lot of rpg's treat lethal combat as if it were some normal natural way of behaving. I wouldn't be likely to do it during combat unless we needed them for something but I would happily drop a wand charge on them afterwards.

Monsters on the other hand, well civilisation has no need for them.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Lawful stupid would be trying to force the rest of the party to use merciful combat and avoid killing party in order to comply with the paladin's code.

Trying to save the lives of people and not be a murderhobo is an RPG choice, not Lawful Stupid.

==Aelryinth

Liberty's Edge

I'm currently playing TWO paladins in my lodge. One is more focused around combat (divine defender who worships Shelyn), the other is more focused around support and healing (oath of charity & hospitaler who worships Sarenrae).

I think too many people who do NOT play paladins immediately think of 'Lawful Stupid'. However, there are certain times where a paladin can complicate things simply because of being around certain situations that the player has no way of knowing (assuming they don't meta-game) and not because of the player.

I don't see many other paladins in the area that I normally play at, but there are some. And no one is ever upset to see one.

Sovereign Court

I interpret the "no retreat" thing as not leaving your teammates in the lurch. If something dangerous has to be done you're not allowed to be a coward. But if there's also a volunteering higher-level barbarian you don't have to insist you do it.

Although this attitude did nearly kill me a couple of times. But I want my paladin to be the guy other people like because they can count on him.


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#2-19: Shades of Ice—Part III: Keep of the Huscarl King
#3-09: The Quest for Perfection—Part I: The Edge of Heaven
#3-11: The Quest for Perfection—Part II: On Hostile Waters
#37: The Beggar's Pearl
#3-13: The Quest for Perfection—Part III: Defenders of Nesting Swallow
#5: Mists of Mwangi

#4–21: Way of the Kirin
Good there..

#8: Slave Pits of Absalom

That one can be very problematic. How did your character deal with the very legal practice of slavery?

#4–11: The Disappeared

Don't know that one.

#4–05: The Sanos Abduction
#5–03: The Hellknight's Feast
Rise of the Runelords - Burnt Offerings
#5–07: Port Godless - Yes, Port Godless was no problem for a paladin.

So you didn't cast any spells, didn't use any divine abilities, the whole adventure?

#5–14: Day of the Demon

Quote:

It's certainly possible to play PFS scenarios as an amoral, violent sociopath; it may even be 'easier' from some perspectives. But it's never been necessary.

Paladins are operating under more constraints than don't be an amoral violent sociopath- There are other goods besides lawful.

Not that most pathfinders actually engage in them but still...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

Keep in mind that a Paladin's code is not set in stone. Some Paladins have a very different code than others. I ran for a paladin/rogue in PFS that worshipped the God of Executions. He was perfectly willing to finish off evil foes following a combat as an extension of his gods divine mandate, acting as judge jury and executioner. I run for another paladin is play a redeemed Tiefling who invariably uses non-lethal damage and tries diplomacy and intimidation when possible.

There are a few adventures in PFS, Bloodcove disguise for example, that might be difficult for a paladin, however sometimes Silence is Golden.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:

#8: Slave Pits of Absalom

That one can be very problematic. How did your character deal with the very legal practice of slavery?

By rescuing the person they were sent to free?

BigNorseWolf wrote:

#5–07: Port Godless - Yes, Port Godless was no problem for a paladin.

So you didn't cast any spells, didn't use any divine abilities, the whole adventure?

Why is this hard to believe?

Sczarni

Weren't PFS Paladins restricted to their GOD's alignment, and not Lawful Good? I have only played PFS once, not exactly popular in Edinburgh, but I think I remember that to be the case?

Silver Crusade

The Lion Cleric wrote:
Weren't PFS Paladins restricted to their GOD's alignment, and not Lawful Good? I have only played PFS once, not exactly popular in Edinburgh, but I think I remember that to be the case?

No, that's fourth ed.


Taenia wrote:
Keep in mind that a Paladin's code is not set in stone. Some Paladins have a very different code than others..

Other paladins have ADDITIONAL codes, or clarifications to the existing code. The core ones still apply.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

#8: Slave Pits of Absalom

That one can be very problematic. How did your character deal with the very legal practice of slavery?

By rescuing the person they were sent to free?

You mean someone elses legal property?

BigNorseWolf wrote:

#5–07: Port Godless - Yes, Port Godless was no problem for a paladin.

So you didn't cast any spells, didn't use any divine abilities, the whole adventure?

Why is this hard to believe?

I think the usual -i don't recognize any authority i don't agree with is legitimate- is more likely.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
You mean someone elses legal property?

Illegally sold property?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Remember that being lawful doesn' mean you have to be blindly obedient to whatever the local legal structure is. It means you have to abide by your own code of discipline and respect local laws to the degree they do not conflict with your own.

There are lots of Andoran Paladins who do not see slavery as legally valid and are perfectly entitled to do something about it...as long as it doesn't involve full-on anarchy and stuff. But most Andorans consider slavers something rather lower then dirt, too.

==Aelryinth

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