Is Fire Mountain Games dead?


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Scarab Sages

I need to get book 6 for Way of the Wicked. I was also looking forward to Throne on Night, at least reading it. I can order the PDF for book 6, but it seems like they are not printing any more copies.

Has anyone heard from Mr. McBride? It would be a real shame if this talented small company fell by the wayside.

Any news would be cool...

Dark Archive

Private message sent.

FMG seems a lot less dead than the last few months.
The second volume of Throne of Night should be released this week, according to Mr. McBride.
Link

Shadow Lodge

Jadeite wrote:

The second volume of Throne of Night should be released this week, according to Mr. McBride.

Link

At this point, that's become something I'll believe when it actually happens.

Dark Archive

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Yeah, I almost went in for the KS too, especially since I'm from Portland and it's just a stones throw away. Dude seems passionate enough and heard great things about the previous AP...just think he's not so great at keeping to schedules and then feels a bit ashamed to keep contact.


The artist still seems to be doing stuff.


The studio appears to be (barely) active, it's just their credibility that's dead.

Scarab Sages

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Well, let's hope it is temporary. Sometimes real life tends to interfere in gaming. Let's hope we hear something soon...

Liberty's Edge

Patman wrote:
Well, let's hope it is temporary. Sometimes real life tends to interfere in gaming. Let's hope we hear something soon...

When you are a for profit publisher gaming is your "real life".


While Fire Mountain Games is not dead, I think Super Genius Games is...anybody heard from Hyram Savage in the last couple of months? It seems he has let Dungeon A Day completely lapse into no access.

President, Jon Brazer Enterprises

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ShadowcatX wrote:
When you are a for profit publisher gaming is your "real life".

While I don't know the specifics about Gary's or FMG's situation, I can say that real life still does get in the way of for profit publishing. Most of us do this after coming home from the day job, spending time with the spouse/kids, helping out around the house, doing this after everyone else goes to bed. For this group, schedules are almost as real as some of the monsters in the Book of Beasts. The few publishers that do it as a full time job have a much better chance of actually making a consistent schedule, but there are only a few of us that fall into that category.

Liberty's Edge

Dale McCoy Jr wrote:
ShadowcatX wrote:
When you are a for profit publisher gaming is your "real life".
While I don't know the specifics about Gary's or FMG's situation, I can say that real life still does get in the way of for profit publishing. Most of us do this after coming home from the day job, spending time with the spouse/kids, helping out around the house, doing this after everyone else goes to bed. For this group, schedules are almost as real as some of the monsters in the Book of Beasts. The few publishers that do it as a full time job have a much better chance of actually making a consistent schedule, but there are only a few of us that fall into that category.

I'm simply pointing out that if someone does a kickstarter (or preorders) they have a legal (and a moral) obligation to uphold their end of the bargain. I'm not saying FMG hasn't done so, quite honestly, I don't know if they have or not, I don't pick up many adventures so I didn't back their kickstarter. But I am going to point out that it is an obligation and it is real life, and that excuses like publishing isn't "real life" are entirely bogus and shouldn't be accepted.

If "real life" has a significant chance of getting in the way, don't accept money before the product is complete. And this isn't just about FMG, this is any publisher.


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In all actuality, I don't believe Mr McBride has offered any reasons/excuses for the delays. This is what has a lot of his backers angry. I missed out on the kickstarter, but have been on the kickstarter page several times to check out the product. Usually on an update, which I believe up to about 3 weeks ago was almost totally non-existent, he starts with "It's been too long since the last update..." (paraphrase).

From what I gather on these boards, if he had popped in ever 2-3 weeks and said, "Guys, sorry on the delays, X has happened, so Y is the result", the effects on his reputation may have been different.

Out of curiosity I will continue to monitor the progress of this project. If and when it comes out complete and appears to be a good product, I'll buy it.

Scarab Sages

Well, Super Genius has become Rogue Genius from what I have heard. I agree Mr. McCoy, and I'm not busting balls at all, I am just saying I hope everything is OK with him and his company. I loved Way of the Wicked, I backed the creature cards, but I did not get in on the Throne of Night. I am definitely going to pick it up if it releases in full..Just hope it's not on GRR Martin or Robert Jordan time....


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ShadowcatX wrote:
Dale McCoy Jr wrote:
ShadowcatX wrote:
When you are a for profit publisher gaming is your "real life".
While I don't know the specifics about Gary's or FMG's situation, I can say that real life still does get in the way of for profit publishing. Most of us do this after coming home from the day job, spending time with the spouse/kids, helping out around the house, doing this after everyone else goes to bed. For this group, schedules are almost as real as some of the monsters in the Book of Beasts. The few publishers that do it as a full time job have a much better chance of actually making a consistent schedule, but there are only a few of us that fall into that category.

I'm simply pointing out that if someone does a kickstarter (or preorders) they have a legal (and a moral) obligation to uphold their end of the bargain. I'm not saying FMG hasn't done so, quite honestly, I don't know if they have or not, I don't pick up many adventures so I didn't back their kickstarter. But I am going to point out that it is an obligation and it is real life, and that excuses like publishing isn't "real life" are entirely bogus and shouldn't be accepted.

If "real life" has a significant chance of getting in the way, don't accept money before the product is complete. And this isn't just about FMG, this is any publisher.

Unless you have been on the publishing side of things you have NO idea. Very few of the 3rd PP make 100% of their living..paying for their homes, food, cars, medical..on gaming. So you have to juggle a job..as well as whatever part you may have in the project..writing, editing, art, layout..whatever. Despite what it may seem sometimes, its not at all easy..all the more so on a multi-book project. Do things get behind..of course..you get sick. Work takes up more time than expected. Parts of the project need to be tweeked to meet expectation of the people that pay for it..because if its not good than you lose money. And sometimes you have to take a breather just not to burn out. So whaile publishing is "REAL LIFE" as you put it..if my choice is being homeless and not feeding my family to get the project out on time..or letting people wait so I can have a "real life" as well as produce a good product, then so be it. More off..if YOU can find a way to juggle a job, and find the extra money to produce a project of this size, with the expected quality without outside funding..please share. Every company would love to know that magic.

Sovereign Court Publisher, Raging Swan Press

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ShadowcatX wrote:
Dale McCoy Jr wrote:
ShadowcatX wrote:
When you are a for profit publisher gaming is your "real life".
While I don't know the specifics about Gary's or FMG's situation, I can say that real life still does get in the way of for profit publishing. Most of us do this after coming home from the day job, spending time with the spouse/kids, helping out around the house, doing this after everyone else goes to bed. For this group, schedules are almost as real as some of the monsters in the Book of Beasts. The few publishers that do it as a full time job have a much better chance of actually making a consistent schedule, but there are only a few of us that fall into that category.

I'm simply pointing out that if someone does a kickstarter (or preorders) they have a legal (and a moral) obligation to uphold their end of the bargain. I'm not saying FMG hasn't done so, quite honestly, I don't know if they have or not, I don't pick up many adventures so I didn't back their kickstarter. But I am going to point out that it is an obligation and it is real life, and that excuses like publishing isn't "real life" are entirely bogus and shouldn't be accepted.

If "real life" has a significant chance of getting in the way, don't accept money before the product is complete. And this isn't just about FMG, this is any publisher.

I completely agree, as a publisher. Once you've got a customer's money not delivering on your promise is just wrong. (I'm making a general comment here - not aiming anything at FMG as I don't really know anything about the situation). That's basic professionalism.


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Creighton Broadhurst wrote:
ShadowcatX wrote:
Dale McCoy Jr wrote:
ShadowcatX wrote:
When you are a for profit publisher gaming is your "real life".
While I don't know the specifics about Gary's or FMG's situation, I can say that real life still does get in the way of for profit publishing. Most of us do this after coming home from the day job, spending time with the spouse/kids, helping out around the house, doing this after everyone else goes to bed. For this group, schedules are almost as real as some of the monsters in the Book of Beasts. The few publishers that do it as a full time job have a much better chance of actually making a consistent schedule, but there are only a few of us that fall into that category.

I'm simply pointing out that if someone does a kickstarter (or preorders) they have a legal (and a moral) obligation to uphold their end of the bargain. I'm not saying FMG hasn't done so, quite honestly, I don't know if they have or not, I don't pick up many adventures so I didn't back their kickstarter. But I am going to point out that it is an obligation and it is real life, and that excuses like publishing isn't "real life" are entirely bogus and shouldn't be accepted.

If "real life" has a significant chance of getting in the way, don't accept money before the product is complete. And this isn't just about FMG, this is any publisher.

I completely agree, as a publisher. Once you've got a customer's money not delivering on your promise is just wrong. (I'm making a general comment here - not aiming anything at FMG as I don't really know anything about the situation). That's basic professionalism.

Well being someone who lost his wife to cancer in the middle of completely my KS campaign and running my RPG business, I can tell you anything can happen and knock you on your ass. I know the gaming industry was more forgiving to my situation when they learned about it but some people were still upset. Just because you don't know what is going on doesn't mean they are just sitting counting your KS dollars. Just something to think about.

Sovereign Court Publisher, Raging Swan Press

LMPjr007 wrote:
Creighton Broadhurst wrote:
ShadowcatX wrote:
Dale McCoy Jr wrote:
ShadowcatX wrote:
When you are a for profit publisher gaming is your "real life".
While I don't know the specifics about Gary's or FMG's situation, I can say that real life still does get in the way of for profit publishing. Most of us do this after coming home from the day job, spending time with the spouse/kids, helping out around the house, doing this after everyone else goes to bed. For this group, schedules are almost as real as some of the monsters in the Book of Beasts. The few publishers that do it as a full time job have a much better chance of actually making a consistent schedule, but there are only a few of us that fall into that category.

I'm simply pointing out that if someone does a kickstarter (or preorders) they have a legal (and a moral) obligation to uphold their end of the bargain. I'm not saying FMG hasn't done so, quite honestly, I don't know if they have or not, I don't pick up many adventures so I didn't back their kickstarter. But I am going to point out that it is an obligation and it is real life, and that excuses like publishing isn't "real life" are entirely bogus and shouldn't be accepted.

If "real life" has a significant chance of getting in the way, don't accept money before the product is complete. And this isn't just about FMG, this is any publisher.

I completely agree, as a publisher. Once you've got a customer's money not delivering on your promise is just wrong. (I'm making a general comment here - not aiming anything at FMG as I don't really know anything about the situation). That's basic professionalism.
Well being someone who lost his wife to cancer in the middle of completely my KS campaign and running my RPG business, I can tell you anything can happen and knock you on your ass. I know the gaming industry was more forgiving to my situation when they learned about it but some people were still upset. Just because you don't know what is...

I hope you don't think was attempting to belittle you or make light of your situation - I absolutely wasn't.

Liberty's Edge

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I'm going to take this point by point.

Blackerose wrote:
Unless you have been on the publishing side of things you have NO idea.

This is very false. One does not have to be in a field to know something of it. Or multiple somethings of it. Second, this isn't just a publishing issue, this is a legal issue. Third, don't get defensive, I'm not casting stones, I'm here to help, at least one individual has been driven to bankruptcy because of kickstarter. I don't want to see that happen to anyone here.

Quote:
Very few of the 3rd PP make 100% of their living..paying for their homes, food, cars, medical..on gaming. So you have to juggle a job..as well as whatever part you may have in the project..writing, editing, art, layout..whatever. Despite what it may seem sometimes, its not at all easy..all the more so on a multi-book project. Do things get behind..of course..you get sick. Work takes up more time than expected. Parts of the project need to be tweeked to meet expectation of the people that pay for it..because if its not good than you lose money.

Ok, I'm going to address this all together, because it is basically one point. Know what you're doing before you take other people's money to do it. Period, full stop, end of discussion. Schedule time for this, and if, for some reason, you planned so poorly that you didn't schedule time for this let people know. Give them updates. Communicate. That goes a long way.

Quote:
And sometimes you have totake a breather just not to burn out.

Great, do that on your own time, don't do it on time other people are paying you for.

Quote:
So whaile (sic) publishing is "REAL LIFE" as you put it..if my choice is being homeless and not feeding my family to get the project out on time..or letting people wait so I can have a "real life" as well as produce a good product, then so be it.

Here you are creating a false dilemma. Failing to live up to your legal obligations is much more likely to make you be homeless than meeting them. If you can't uphold your end of a contract, don't ever sign the contract, it is that simple.


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Creighton Broadhurst wrote:
I hope you don't think was attempting to belittle you or make light of your situation - I absolutely wasn't.

No, I would never think that. You're good with me Creighton. I think people forget to be civil with one another once an a while.

Publisher, Dreamscarred Press

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ShadowcatX - as someone who is, oh, I don't know, a year behind on a Kickstarter, I can tell you that while communication goes a long way, the other issues brought up are very real.

I got burned out pretty heavily working on the content for Ultimate Psionics. And now getting through hundreds of shipments by myself, I'm getting burned out on it again. Knowing that I have a financial obligation to get them out doesn't motivate, it actually exacerbates, because time to relax and refresh is absolutely needed, but when you have that constant cloud hanging over your head of "need to get this out because people paid for it" means that even when you're trying to relax so you can get back at it with gusto the next day, after lunch, or whatever, you always have that weighing on you and making you feel guilty for the time you are taking off. Even when you logically know it's needed, it doesn't help.

I can tell you there have been many weeks where I've spent more time on Ultimate Psionics than on my 40+ hour a week day job. I get paid far less for publishing than I do for my day job. I don't begrudge customers for that, but it can very much impact the ability to get things done of a sufficient quality and speed when you're under that much constant pressure.


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I think the point that's being made is this:

If you are a small publisher, and you run a kickstarter, add 12 months to the expected delivery date.

Seriously.

No one will complain if you are early.


Thedmstrikes wrote:
While Fire Mountain Games is not dead, I think Super Genius Games is...anybody heard from Hyram Savage in the last couple of months? It seems he has let Dungeon A Day completely lapse into no access.

A sad end to the site, indeed.


I think in regards to this project, SPECIFICALLY, there could very well be situations that the public is not aware of. Nevertheless, Mr McBride has posted more than 1 update recently, and no mention of why it had been several months since anyone had heard from him.

Perhaps he had some kind of bad situation happen to him in that time, if so, I definitely sympathize with him. And he doesn't need to be intimate with the public as to what he's going through. However, something/anything could go a long way in softening people's stance to him. Because at the end of the day, it all really boils down to people's perception. I won't get into any of the legalities here; I don't think I'm qualified to do so. I'm just speaking in terms of the OP. Is FMG dead? I don't know, but pending the final outcome of this scenario, it very well may be. And I'm not judging anyone's commitment or such in the 3PP world, I think it's existence is critical to keep gaming fresh, I'm just commenting as a consumer.

@LMPjr007. Sorry to hear about your loss bro. My condolences.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

I believe Fire Mountain Games is undead at this point. Lumbering slowly along with no response. :)

Scarab Sages

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This goes back to the old phrase " You can't please everyone". People need to understand the "shit happens". I'm not in the "game" but geez, I can surely put myself in that place. I had several good discussions with Gary McBride when first starting to run WotW, and he was a very nice man, and very enthusiastic and helpful with his comments and suggestions.

Sometimes you need a little break to catch your breath, deal with loved ones etc....I think 90% of the gaming community would understand this. But, there are always the people who say " I paid for it, stick to the schedule" . I understand that they are there. In a smaller way, I deal with that too. I'm in the hospitality industry, managing bars and restaurants. People want what they want...I merely suggest that you cannot make everyone happy, so do the best to communicate what is going on, then if people cannot accept that things are a little late, oh well..you tried. By communicating you let people know you still care, but shit came up. Just dropping out make people worry, speculate, start rumors etc....That was what I wanted to avoid with this post. I was hoping someone knew what was happening, or Gary or his partner would respond to squash the rumors. I saw a lot of them while searching for an update on the project and future endeavors.

To all the developers and publishers out there, for every one person who b+#@~es and complains, remember there are hundreds of others who appreciate your hard work and ideas to make our gaming time, which for most of us is a diversion from the stresses of everyday shit, more enjoyable...

Patrick


Patman wrote:
so do the best to communicate what is going on

Think about that line a bit.

Honestly, I hear you though. I work in sales; trust me, I hear you.


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With Kickstarter, you are funding a project to produce a product. You are not going into a store and buying something already produced. I think if you are going to back a project on Kickstarter, you need to keep in mind that production problems and other issues could still derail the project.

If Paizo has trouble keeping to release dates, with a "large" staff fully dedicated to producing product, than why is it weird that a couple of people producing a product in their free time, and without an extensive technical help network, wouldn't have issues?

Liberty's Edge

MMCJawa wrote:

With Kickstarter, you are funding a project to produce a product. You are not going into a store and buying something already produced. I think if you are going to back a project on Kickstarter, you need to keep in mind that production problems and other issues could still derail the project.

If Paizo has trouble keeping to release dates, with a "large" staff fully dedicated to producing product, than why is it weird that a couple of people producing a product in their free time, and without an extensive technical help network, wouldn't have issues?

And while this is true, it is entirely a cop out. Expecting people to fulfill their portion of a contract (that they themselves wrote), on time, is not unreasonable. If I was a year late on something I was turning in for my job, well, I'd never have an opportunity to be a year late.

I wonder, how many people would stick up for people if this situation were reversed, how many people would be like "Oh, take my product, it doesn't matter if you haven't paid on it for a year, here, have another product." After all, backers have stuff come up in their lives as well.

And as a final side note, if I was working long hours, for very little pay and I was all that burned out, I'd find another job.


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We tack 6 months on to our "last deadline" date in case the unexpected comes up.
We also write, do our first editing draft on whatever material we want to publish, and lock in an artist (and 1 back up) before we launch the KS.
That way we only have to edit, do stretch goals, deal with art, and format (though we generally have at least the art assets done for the layout).
We also don't do physical copies to avoid the hellstorm that brings.

Liberty's Edge

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LMPjr007 wrote:
I think people forget to be civil with one another once an a while.

Truer words have never been spoken ...

Liberty's Edge

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Little Red Goblin Games wrote:

We tack 6 months on to our "last deadline" date in case the unexpected comes up.

We also write, do our first editing draft on whatever material we want to publish, and lock in an artist (and 1 back up) before we launch the KS.
That way we only have to edit, do stretch goals, deal with art, and format (though we generally have at least the art assets done for the layout).
We also don't do physical copies to avoid the hellstorm that brings.

Good points. The more planning, preparation and work one does before a Kickstarter launches will have a HUGE impact on the success and timeliness of the final product(s)


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I think kickstarter brings new pressures and problems to the industry as much as it brings new opportunities. there is no question that there are more products in gaming in general then there would have been without kickstarter. That much is plain. Smaller companies can make products they couldnt otherwise, and riskier products that might not have been made also have a chance at the light of day.

But I also think it provides unique psycholigical stresses on both the creators and the customers.

The creators get to wake up every morning knowing 'I have their money, I need to make the product'. That is a heavy weight. Its pretty close to a small business loan, except you dont have a bank to deal with. A rational and oraganized entity. You have a whole bunch of individuals. Some are calm, informed and rational, some are overly demanding, some dont have a clue, and some are down right crazy.

Crowdfunding almost flips the dynamic of creator and customer to creator and employer. No matter what I have to say about any boss i've ever worked for, none of them hold a candle to the insanity that is the gaming community. Imagine the emotion, venom, mental energy and sheer volume of opinion that went into say the armor spikes debate coming out of your bosses mouth. Every time I think about how cool it would be to kickstart a super successful game idea...I think about that, and go to work...

Then there is the stress on the customer. Some people go into it with the mentality that seems appropriate to the concept. I am funding a project, not going to a store. I understand that this isnt like preording a game, it hasnt been made yet. That means risk, time, and a whole lot of waiting. This is a really new kind of dynamic for any consumer market. There is a psychological need to see a return on money spent, and gamers have a tendancy to impulse buy.

That applies to kickstarters as well. The waiting that happens afterward is a very unique mental stress on people who may not have lots of resources, may be weighing opportunity costs on things that are actually available to play/use right now, may have spouses, parents, significant others who are not thrilled about their gaming spending and wonder why they spent money on something that doesnt exist. And then there is the internet. Where people who like or hate a thing can swarm around eachother like hornets and bees stirring up all sorts of crazy.

I dont know what is going on of course with this specific project. But the more I think about it, the more I see what could very well be a set of stresses and situations that both creater and customer are not used to dealing with. I want someone with some special initials at the end of their name who knows stuff I dont to do a study on this stuff. I'd read it.


What you said should be made gospel Kolokotroni.

The dynamic is almost cyclical. The customers double as your boss/patron/bank. If they aren't happy you've failed. Then again at the same time you need to exercise the creative freedom that brought about the project. So you are often at odds with your own "boss" and then take into account that you have hundreds of backers (or bosses) and you can't possibly please every single one of them.


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I think people are right to come to the defense of FMG in this scenario, but I feel like people are missing the main point here. This is not really about missing the schedule. This is about not dropping a line every couple to three weeks to say something/anything about the progress of this project.

I've read several posts by kickstarter supporters who are frustrated by the total blackout by Gary. Being burned out, having personal things come up, etc, are all 100% understandable. But, letting months ago by with no correspondence at all does not help their case. I say these things because I do not want the thread title to become a reality.

And to reiterate, I think the product put out by FMG is quality. I think it is worth the wait. I applaud those of you publishers and designers who make the sacrifice, but people need to hear from those who are absent for long periods of time. It is amazing what a little communication can do for morale.

Scarab Sages Contributor

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DaveMage wrote:
Thedmstrikes wrote:
While Fire Mountain Games is not dead, I think Super Genius Games is...anybody heard from Hyram Savage in the last couple of months? It seems he has let Dungeon A Day completely lapse into no access.
A sad end to the site, indeed.

SINCE this came up:

Super Genius games still exists as a legal entity. It owns Dungeonaday.com (though not all the stand-alone dungeons unconnected to Dragon's Delve, though it retains the right to sell those on the DaD site), and all the Kickstarter monies and responsibilities.

Stan! and I got bought out from SGG last November. We were largely paid in the rights to the material we had written for SGG and some use-rights. (My deal specified I could use "Genius Games" in a company title, as long as "Super Genius" was not used, and that I owned the rights to the Genius Guide line name).

Once the ink was dry on my being bought out, I decided to form Rogue Genius games. I asked Stan! if he wanted to be part of it, and he did. (And he wrote our first release: "Gingerbread Kaiju").

Christina Stiles did a lot of development work for SGG, and I brought her on as the Senior Developer for RGG, but she had nothing to do with SGG's business decisions.

So RGG and SGG are separate companies, despite some clear similarities.

Sadly I no longer have access to Dungeonaday.com, nor the rights to any of the work I did on it. I don't know when or if SGG will move forward with the DaD plans that existed back when I was part of the company.


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DaveMage wrote:

I think the point that's being made is this:

If you are a small publisher, and you run a kickstarter, add 12 months to the expected delivery date.

Seriously.

No one will complain if you are early.

That type of worst-case thinking is the way to proceed.

The issues being discussed here are not unique to gaming by any means. I work in project management for an industrial controls company and we have to guard against similar issues with people who are working 40 hours a week, not doing something as a side project.

Little Red Goblin Games seems like they have it right - minimize the variables and then go. That one post should be the bible for small independent publishers preparing a KS.

President, Jon Brazer Enterprises

I just checked facebook and g+. In both cases, he last posted in late January.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

Before the days of Kickstarter, I was involved in a number of Wolfgang Baur's patronage projects. That word, "patronage," meant something specific to me. When I signed up and sent some money in, I wasn't pre-ordering a product. I was taking a chance and buying a bit of potential. I knew from day 1 that there were risks involved. But I also knew that I had the chance to get involved on the ground floor of something that might be great. I was willing to pay for that potential. All of Wolfgang's patronage projects turned out amazing.

I also patronize Nick Logue's Razor Coast. Talk about potential - that thing had the possibility of being absolutely amazing! And then it went bust. Bummer. But I never felt "ripped off," and I never asked for my money back. When you shoot for greatness, sometimes you fall short. C'est la vie. (And then, of course, the good folks at Frog God Games and several of the publishes in this very thread jumped in and saved Razor Coast and I am holding that beauty in my hand at this very moment. Thanks again to all involved.]

My point isn't to excuse lack of communication. People who make a promise and take your money should communicate what's going on. But what I am saying is that when folks chip in to Kickstart an unwritten writing project, they have to be aware that there are some risks involved. There is a chance things aren't going to pan out. Kickstarter isn't pre-ordering from Paizo or Amazon. You're supporting someone's creative process because you like their idea and - let's be honest - because it's something you probably can't do yourself. But creativity can't always be forced onto a timeline and greatness doesn't come with a guarantee. Sit back and be patient, cross your fingers but accept that it might never happen, and if you can't live with that, don't "buy" unfinished products. Paizo and the other 3PPs have a wide variety of already-complete material waiting to ship to you within 24 hours of your purchase.


I think the current Throne of Night is "slightly" off schedule atm.. no one debates that..

No one ( at least i think ) debates that FMG's stuff is really well written/ done.

As well.. as some people have said, real life can interfere with timelines and such.

The problem is that there has been ZERO communication from anyone at FMG's to update people as to whats going on. That is what is causing people to get all snakey over it.

No matter what is/was going on , i would hope that sometime in the last year, 5 mins could be spared just to even say on the kickstarter, "hey guys, <insert random/vague/ any excuse here > .

I know on the facebook page, alot of customers of FMG have spoken up with information, and supported each other in this time.

I'm also surprised no one has looked up anyone heading up FMG, and given them a call, or gone to his office, and reported back to the general public.


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Patman wrote:
Well, Super Genius has become Rogue Genius from what I have heard. I agree Mr. McCoy, and I'm not busting balls at all, I am just saying I hope everything is OK with him and his company. I loved Way of the Wicked, I backed the creature cards, but I did not get in on the Throne of Night. I am definitely going to pick it up if it releases in full..Just hope it's not on GRR Martin or Robert Jordan time....

Robert Jordan at least had the excuse of being extremely sick, then dead on his only extremely long term delay (which was 3 years between 9 and 10 and then 4 years after his death before 12 was released. All of the WoT books came out within a couple of years of each other, once a year for the first 6), and kept the fans informed of his condition and the progress on the book (or the book's notes for his successor).

"Robert Jordan time" ran pretty much like clockwork while he was alive and healthy, and even when the clock was running out of juice it kept people updated on exactly WHY it was running out of juice.


Just chiming in here to agree with posters above that the big issue is really communication. The Steampunk Musha kickstarter is almost two years overdue, and definitely went dark as far as communications during a lot of last year. Getting communications back only happened after the concerted efforts of a few individuals to contact the creators and get them to tell us what was going on...

Things seem to be on track again, but even now the Update schedule is painfully slow. I'm not upset if there is going to be delay/s but I want someone to hop on the Kickstarter page every few weeks/once a month and say something/anything.

It seems that in this case, if Gary McBride would only communicate something publically a lot of the uncertainty would be neutralised, and thus ill-feeling.

I also agree that as much as KS is a risk, it is also a pledge that goes both ways. By all means make the necessary float in your time or funds in your project setup to make sure even the worst case scenario is ameliorated or catered for. Adding the headaches of rabid KS participants to your worst case scenario is not what anyone should have to look forward to.


I didn't back the kickstarter, but it does look like Gary upated the Throne of Night kickstarter page on Friday of last week.

Honestly, there seem to be fairly frequent updates on the KS site-- more frequent updates than for many KS projects I've backed!

I'll agree with some of the other posters that the downside of crowdsourcing funding for a project (particularly on Kickstarter) is that so many backers have the idea that they are preordering a product from an established publisher/manufacturer. You aren't. You are investing in the potential of an idea-- one that may never come to fruition. Backers have to acknowledge that they may never get the product they hoped for, and have a real risk of not getting their money back either.

Yes, Kickstarter does require creators to promise to refund money if the project fails. However, if the project fails so badly that the creator goes bankrupt, then all bets are off. (And, yes, that happens.)

But, back to the OP-- it looks to me like FMG is communicating with the public. Or, are you talking about a different project?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
ShadowcatX wrote:
And sometimes you have totake a breather just not to burn out.

Great, do that on your own time, don't do it on time other people are paying you for.

Quote:
So whaile (sic) publishing is "REAL LIFE" as you put it..if my choice is being homeless and not feeding my family to get the project out on time..or letting people wait so I can have a "real life" as well as produce a good product, then so be it.
Here you are creating a false dilemma. Failing to live up to your legal obligations is much more likely to make you be homeless than meeting them. If you can't uphold your end of a contract, don't ever sign the contract, it is that simple.

One difference between being a publisher and a regular job is that publishers don't get sick leave. People do have multiple obligations and it's just not reasonable, logical, or fair to suggest a project can't have setbacks. Kickstarters are not personal commissions. The project founder has a legal and ethical obligation to deliver, but the backers also have a legal and ethical obligation to be supportive and patient. That is, in fact, the pledge they made when they backed the project: to support the success of the project.

As for "real life," if you've ever really been deep in it, then you know that abstract obligations, while real and both legally and ethically binding, sometimes have to take a back seat to material and emotional survival. Particularly, there will be pauses in long projects. Just as you'll take several breaks when you spend eight hours hauling boxes, you'll take breaks when you spend several months putting together a humongous book. This "take your breaks on my own time" attitude is counterproductive. If you expect to see a book at all, you're going to have to rely on the judgment of the creators as to what is a productive pace of work. Eating, sleeping, and actually producing things worth reading are very real things.

I've had two good-sized projects make. One (Conquest of the Universe) is basically on schedule. The other (Do Not Approach) is far behind. It's not because I'm differently committed. It just has to do with what each project has required, and the resources I've had to put toward them.


Haladir wrote:

I didn't back the kickstarter, but it does look like Gary upated the Throne of Night kickstarter page on Friday of last week.

Honestly, there seem to be fairly frequent updates on the KS site-- more frequent updates than for many KS projects I've backed!

I'll agree with some of the other posters that the downside of crowdsourcing funding for a project (particularly on Kickstarter) is that so many backers have the idea that they are preordering a product from an established publisher/manufacturer. You aren't. You are investing in the potential of an idea-- one that may never come to fruition. Backers have to acknowledge that they may never get the product they hoped for, and have a real risk of not getting their money back either.

Yes, Kickstarter does require creators to promise to refund money if the project fails. However, if the project fails so badly that the creator goes bankrupt, then all bets are off. (And, yes, that happens.)

But, back to the OP-- it looks to me like FMG is communicating with the public. Or, are you talking about a different project?

Until recently there hadn't been any communication for quite some time I believe. That's what I've been seeing said in other threads about FMG anyway.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

First, be more careful with your quotes, don't act imply I said things I did not say.

RJGrady wrote:
One difference between being a publisher and a regular job is that publishers don't get sick leave.

Second, sure they do, they just have to schedule them into the project. Part of being an intelligent project head is being able to plan for things. You know that at some point, you will get ill, plan for it.

Quote:
People do have multiple obligations and it's just not reasonable, logical, or fair to suggest a project can't have setbacks.

Of course a project can have setbacks, an intelligent project head will plan for them ahead of time, but even I'll admit that's not always perfect. However, running a year late on a project that was supposed to take 6 months isn't a setback, it is an out right failure, it is incompetence and it is probably legally actionable.

Quote:
Kickstarters are not personal commissions. The project founder has a legal and ethical obligation to deliver, but the backers also have a legal and ethical obligation to be supportive and patient.

No they do not. They have a legal and ethical obligation to wait until the project completion date to receive their product, but pretty much nothing beyond that. The project head (that is the publisher) is the one who wrote the contract, he is the one upon whose shoulders fulfilling the contract rests upon, after all the backers have already fulfilled their legal obligation.

Again, I'll ask, how reasonable do you think the publishers would be if people took their projects and then didn't pay for a year or more. Do you think the publishers would continue to give that person (or group of people) products without demanding payment up front?

Quote:
That is, in fact, the pledge they made when they backed the project: to support the success of the project.

They pledged financial support, which they fulfilled the moment the kickstarter ended.

Quote:
I've had two good-sized projects make. One (Conquest of the Universe) is basically on schedule. The other (Do Not Approach) is far behind. It's not because I'm differently committed. It just has to do with what each project has required, and the resources I've had to put toward them.

And here you sit, making excuses and preaching at people you don't know on the internet. Such a good use of your time.


I backed his Creature Cards and it was never the fact it was late (almost every kickstarter I've been in has been late to some degree) it was the months at a time without an update and no responses when emailing/messaging him. It made people wonder if we were getting ripped off since it felt like there was a blockade on information related to it. Plus he started the Throne of Night kickstarter while not responding to any of us or giving us an update. It really looked bad.

With that said, he did complete the Creature Cards and they were quite high quality, but I probably wouldn't do another FMG kickstarter still.


@Aleron - Well said.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

I did not back either Kickstarter, but I did pick up the entire Way of the Wicked set last PaizoCon. After this I think I would not back a future KS either, but I will certainly pick up any products that do get finished.

Digital Products Assistant

16 people marked this as a favorite.

Hey guys, just a quick reminder: we value our Compatible Publishers, and piling onto them is not helpful/productive. Please keep this and the messageboard rules in mind. Thanks!


Tinkergoth wrote:
Haladir wrote:

I didn't back the kickstarter, but it does look like Gary upated the Throne of Night kickstarter page on Friday of last week.

Honestly, there seem to be fairly frequent updates on the KS site-- more frequent updates than for many KS projects I've backed!

I'll agree with some of the other posters that the downside of crowdsourcing funding for a project (particularly on Kickstarter) is that so many backers have the idea that they are preordering a product from an established publisher/manufacturer. You aren't. You are investing in the potential of an idea-- one that may never come to fruition. Backers have to acknowledge that they may never get the product they hoped for, and have a real risk of not getting their money back either.

Yes, Kickstarter does require creators to promise to refund money if the project fails. However, if the project fails so badly that the creator goes bankrupt, then all bets are off. (And, yes, that happens.)

But, back to the OP-- it looks to me like FMG is communicating with the public. Or, are you talking about a different project?

Until recently there hadn't been any communication for quite some time I believe. That's what I've been seeing said in other threads about FMG anyway.

Their last communication before very recently was some time in January or so, last I checked (which was about a month ago).

ShadowcatX wrote:

I've had two good-sized projects make. One (Conquest of the Universe) is basically on schedule. The other (Do Not Approach) is far behind. It's not because I'm differently committed. It just has to do with what each project has required, and the resources I've had to put toward them.

Quote:
And here you sit, making excuses and preaching at people you don't know on the internet. Such a good use of your time.

#shotsfired

Seriously though that's uncalled for. Taking on a project does not mean you need to spend every waking moment working on it. Rest IS needed. Delays WILL happen. That's just a fact of life.

The issue comes when you "go dark", nobody can contact you, and it seems as though you've taken the money and run.

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