Is Fire Mountain Games dead?


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I think this thread got a little toxic with everyone trying to make their point. Let's all take a step back and chillax.

I wish FMG the best and hope when this project is completed, it will knock it out of the park.

Grand Lodge

@ShadowcatX -- I'm surprised at some of the things you say. You must have the absolute perfect life where nothing goes wrong and no one dies, for you to be able to say that. A buddy of mine had started a KS, and had to cancel it and return all the money 4 days before it expired because in the span of two months he'd lost his girlfriend, his mom, his dad, and had to deal with their estate. He was practically comatose from everything happening in such a short span. Couldn't communicate with him or anything. Thankfully his sister was able to help him back to reality and get him to cancel the KS, along with everything else. I can only imagine how bad things would have been if she hadn't been there, or hadn't gotten him to cancel it. Thankfully she just had the kind of personality to get through things. He didn't.

All we know about the situation regarding Gary is that he made no contact for a number of months, but his artist said something happened and that things will unfortunately be taking much longer than originally anticipated. Even the people who've said on the forums that they knew him well but couldn't get a hold of him, or couldn't get him to return their calls. People he KNEW. That he was FRIENDS with. Do we know what went on? No. Are we obligated to know the full details? No. Gary did come back, solemn about what happened. When he's ready, he'll tell us what the delay was. It could have been any number of things. And considering how upbeat the guy usually is, it must have been something big. Yes, I'm speculating, but ever since the safari he went on with his wife, he hasn't been the same.

To the OP, FMG isn't dead, but after this adventure path I would understand if Gary stepped down for a while to deal with whatever happened these past six months. And hopefully he'll be willing to share with us what happened.


Rynjin wrote:
Tinkergoth wrote:
Until recently there hadn't been any communication for quite some time I believe. That's what I've been seeing said in other threads about FMG anyway.
Their last communication before very recently was some time in January or so, last I checked (which was about a month ago).

Sorry, just to clarify, I'm not a backer and haven't really kept up with the whole thing, as I had no real interest in the project. I was just offering a potential explanation to Haladir based on what I'd read in the Throne of Night thread that's been a hotbed of discussion for the whole issue. I can't really comment on the way the project has been run itself.

Now if you want to see a horrifyingly poorly run Kickstarter, take a look at Avarice Industries. Never have I been so glad to have not known about a project til after it finished, because I'd have been throwing all the money ever at it. Spoilering because it's not about FMG, but about an example of definite mismanagement of a project.

Spoiler:
I was keeping an eye on it from time to time as I was interested in getting the product when it came out... anyway, the project delivery date was April 2012... No updates for months at a time, last one was in July 2013, and said that the books were no where near ready (previous update had been saying books were about two and a half weeks away from ready). Update finished by asking for questions to be posted that would be answered in the next weeks update...

One user posted a question, asking how the books weren't near ready a month after they were told two and a half weeks (I consider this reasonable). The user then posted a comment on the project page in October sharing a message the creator sent him in response, which essentially read as "I've had some serious issues which have delayed things" (reasonable enough) but then followed it up with what reads as "every time you leave a comment asking about the lack of progress, I stop writing because you upset me so much, please stop belittling me" (less than reasonable, given that the backer has been nothing but civil from what I've seen).

Since then there's been no activity on the page in the form of updates or comments from the creator, no news on the webpage for the game, and pretty much nothing on the twitter for the game (though the creator is active on her own twitter).

The only real problems I've had with Kickstarter projects are that I found the Blasphemous Cocktails book to just be a really subpar piece of work, but communication was fine, and the whole debacle with Nova Forge Enterprises, where the creators managed to get the base game produced and shipped, but have been dead silent on the expansion since October (and have also apparently been in and out of jail during that time due to numerous charges of vandalism and arson). Once that happened, thats when I started being far more careful than I had been before with my pledges. Just goes to show that sometimes things that look promising can go south very quickly, for very unexpected reasons.


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All I can say is that it must be nice to be able to know in advance when you will be ill, so you can work it into your schedule. As far as the Kickstarter..yes you have a "legal obligation:..but there is NO contract stating work will be done by X date..in fact most of them specifically state that they can't give more than an estimated time frame. I can count on one hand the number of them I have backed..not just books..that have delivered on time. And that's ok by me. I would rather have a product that was worthwhile then a rush job.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Blackerose wrote:
All I can say is that it must be nice to be able to know in advance when you will be ill, so you can work it into your schedule.

You don't. You just add a number of sickdays on to the estimated delivery time, and if you don't get sick you deliver early.


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I for hope nothing serious happened, and Gary is all well.. his products are top notch and I look forward to them all

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'm surprised how people are willing to vivisect a company (ve it Paizo, WotC or whatever) when it fumbles a product release date despite logical explanation (boat sinks/customs/freelancer vanished) but are willing to forgive any delays from That Poor Guy Who Ran a Quickstarter.

Business is business. I don't care what happens to your mother/dog or if KS causes a divorce. Deal with it. And yes, I was a backer of Josh Frost and his Quantium fiasco where he used my money to fund 2 years of his living and then vanished.

While I understand the concept of business courtesy and that Lisa is a classy person, I half wish I knew why exactly JF left Paizo - that could have saved me 100$ which I could give to somebody who acts ethically

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Oh yeah, I forgot about Quantum. Eh, glad it's not taking up space on my shelf anyway...


@Gorbacz: I'm not sure I understand "business courtesy". From what you write it seems like code for "don't make waves". No wonder business has such a poor reputation... If it is more important to extend "courtesy" than tell the truth, no matter how unfortunate the truth may be...

Liberty's Edge

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Blackerose wrote:
All I can say is that it must be nice to be able to know in advance when you will be ill, so you can work it into your schedule.
You don't. You just add a number of sickdays on to the estimated delivery time, and if you don't get sick you deliver early.

Thank you. This is basic project management. So maybe I should add that to my list of suggestions for all kickstarters; study up on project management.

Scarab Sages

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ShadowcatX wrote:
So maybe I should add that to my list of suggestions for all kickstarters

You know, that wouldn't be a bad subject for its own separate thread as a guide for those thinking about running a future KS project. There's definitely a useful list of Do's and Don'ts to be made.

Liberty's Edge

davrion wrote:
ShadowcatX wrote:
So maybe I should add that to my list of suggestions for all kickstarters
You know, that wouldn't be a bad subject for its own separate thread as a guide for those thinking about running a future KS project. There's definitely a useful list of Do's and Don'ts to be made.

You're right. And by branching to a new thread it won't seem like I'm down on FMG (which I'm not). Good idea.

Liberty's Edge

Gorbacz wrote:

I was a backer of Josh Frost and his Quantium fiasco where he used my money to fund 2 years of his living and then vanished.

While I understand the concept of business courtesy and that Lisa is a classy person, I half wish I knew why exactly JF left Paizo - that could have saved me 100$ which I could give to somebody who acts ethically

I had not heard of this before ... what happened? Maybe put it in a spoiler tag for those that aren't interested ...


Marc Radle wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:

I was a backer of Josh Frost and his Quantium fiasco where he used my money to fund 2 years of his living and then vanished.

While I understand the concept of business courtesy and that Lisa is a classy person, I half wish I knew why exactly JF left Paizo - that could have saved me 100$ which I could give to somebody who acts ethically

I had not heard of this before ... what happened? Maybe put it in a spoiler tag for those that aren't interested ...

Spoiler:
In September, Josh said art issues were delaying the book but that the rules would be out by Thanksgiving and the book by New Year's. He hasn't updated KS since then, and some backers saw that he removed himself from InfiniteX on LinkedIn and let the company's registration in Washington lapse. Over the last couple of days, a couple backers have been calling for him to be reported to the Washington AG for fraud and theft and/or to go to his listed address and confront him.
Scarab Sages

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ShadowcatX wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Blackerose wrote:
All I can say is that it must be nice to be able to know in advance when you will be ill, so you can work it into your schedule.
You don't. You just add a number of sickdays on to the estimated delivery time, and if you don't get sick you deliver early.
Thank you. This is basic project management. So maybe I should add that to my list of suggestions for all kickstarters; study up on project management.

This is not directly aimed at FMG, but rather a general comment, since I see this argument about a lot of kickstarters....

Thats why there is a Risks section in each Kickstarter. While no one is obligated to update or communicate with backers or fans of their products, the reality is that you can gain or lose the power to have your phone calls returned and be seen as a reputable company based on your communication. Effective communication goes a long way towards allaying concerns. Even if you get on once a month and say "no change, nothing to see here, move along, we are progressing" at least folks know that their support is being returned.

Government contracts are a lot like Kickstarters. Often times they result in overruns, delays, subpar end products, and other less preferred outcomes. However, most times, as long as regular communication with the sponsor is maintained and they are kept in the loop regarding delays, issues, etc, their is continued support, even if they are disappointed.

In Kickstarters, the backers are the sponsors, so frankly its disappointing when projects "go dark". Even if your world is coming to an end, delegate and tell someone to communicate on your behalf to the backers, then come back and deal with it again when you can.

Liberty's Edge

Garrett Guillotte wrote:
Marc Radle wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:

I was a backer of Josh Frost and his Quantium fiasco where he used my money to fund 2 years of his living and then vanished.

While I understand the concept of business courtesy and that Lisa is a classy person, I half wish I knew why exactly JF left Paizo - that could have saved me 100$ which I could give to somebody who acts ethically

I had not heard of this before ... what happened? Maybe put it in a spoiler tag for those that aren't interested ...
** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:
You can read more about it on the project's kickstarter page here. All the comments and the updates are available to read.
Sovereign Court

Garrett Guillotte wrote:
Marc Radle wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:

I was a backer of Josh Frost and his Quantium fiasco where he used my money to fund 2 years of his living and then vanished.

While I understand the concept of business courtesy and that Lisa is a classy person, I half wish I knew why exactly JF left Paizo - that could have saved me 100$ which I could give to somebody who acts ethically

I had not heard of this before ... what happened? Maybe put it in a spoiler tag for those that aren't interested ...
** spoiler omitted **

Additionally

Spoiler:
the project was from Dec 2011 with with an Apr 2012 estimated delivery time. The 4 month turn around was the first error he made. The second was dropping the ball as far as communication goes.

I did not kick in on this project, but I did think about it. Ultimately I decided to wait until it hit the shelves and am rather glad I did.


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ShadowcatX wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Blackerose wrote:
All I can say is that it must be nice to be able to know in advance when you will be ill, so you can work it into your schedule.
You don't. You just add a number of sickdays on to the estimated delivery time, and if you don't get sick you deliver early.
Thank you. This is basic project management. So maybe I should add that to my list of suggestions for all kickstarters; study up on project management.

...So a Kickstarter I backed had an issue. The head writer got sever pneumonia, ended up in a drug induced coma in the hospital for the better part of a month, and then had to go to rehab to get his strength back. When he was able he did send a message explaining the delay.

By your logic, he should have somehow added a few months to his delivery time "just in case"? And I should, by rights be screaming for his head, because its "his issue" that he could have died? Instead I just shrug my shoulders, wish him a good recovery..and wait like a grown up.
If a writer has a child..or a spouse fall ill..maybe in addition to that, they have to work extra at their "real life" job to cover medical bills..the answer should be "well you should have thought about that before you started on a project"?
Having to deal with illness, or a death,or just the fact that day to day living sometimes requires extra hours is NOT the same as taking the money and running. That's not even counting shipping delays, art delays, etc. If you are mad at someone for lack of communication that's one thing, and is at least somewhat justified. But hammering a person when something has gone wrong..and expecting them to put a project that will likely at best break even over actually making a living is not only short sighted, but utterly lacks empathy. If I was working on a project, and a family member died..finishing the project would take the back burner for as long as I needed to deal with what needed to get done. If people decided that was not good enough..than I really don't need that money anyway, vs someone that gives a damn about the person WRITING the material. Every author/artist is more important to me than a fictional book. You can't forget behind the "business" is a human writing because they enjoy the material, and enjoy making people happy.

Shadow Lodge

In my opinion, companies that run a Kickstarter should:

1) Come up with a realistic delivery date, and
2) tack a minimum of six months onto that, just to be safe.

FMG did neither of those. Their overall delivery date was THIS month, which was, even if everything had gone smoothly, a far too optimistic date. They've only accomplished 1 of 6 PDFs. I'm not sure about physical books, but I don't think that even the first book has been delivered yet.

But again, that might all have been forgivable without the five month communication blackout between September 30 and March 7. That is simply unacceptable. No matter what is going on, taking five minutes here and there to post an update is something that can be done.

He's posted fairly regular updates since March 7, so maybe this can get back on track, but I have a feeling that FMG's next projects aren't going to see much in the way of support, and he can pretty much kiss any potential Kickstarters goodbye for the immediate future.


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ShadowcatX wrote:


And as a final side note, if I was working long hours, for very little pay and I was all that burned out, I'd find another job.

And yet this is what EVERY SINGLE 3RD PARTY PUBLISHER DOES. Even the very best works multiple jobs in the RPG field..and even then they squeak by. Most work a "normal" job..and try to squeeze out the best work they can in between..hoping to make enough money on it to put out their NEXT release. They do it because of passion for the game, and for people that enjoy their work..despite the fact that it does often cost more more than it gains, despite the fact that if you are EVER off game you can get crucified for it, and despite some people that seem to think you are a machine that can vomit up what they want on command. That same passion (insanity?) is the only reason you have content to sit here and discuss and critique. If they all felt the way you do in that one quote..then it would be over. And yes..if I had something tragic, and got messages like some of what I saw on here..not just inquiring ones, but the "well too bad where is my stuff"..my concern for quality would go down, and it would likely be the last thing I produced. That's not being defensive, that's wanting to be treated like a human being.

If someone defrauds people like Quantum..that's one thing. If people are not giving quick enough updates..its not a bad thing to say "hey whats going on"..but to treat ANY author as if their entire existence is only for the fiction they release is just awful.

Liberty's Edge

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Blackerose wrote:
...So a Kickstarter I backed had an issue. The head writer got sever pneumonia, ended up in a drug induced coma in the hospital for the better part of a month, and then had to go to rehab to get his strength back. When he was able he did send a message explaining the delay.

You know, I can't help but notice everyone in this thread goes to the absolute worst case scenario for a kickstarter, but the very vast majority of the time a kickstarter falls behind it is not because of a worst case scenario, it is because they simply failed to properly plan ahead of time.

Quote:
By your logic, he should have somehow added a few months to his delivery time "just in case"?

He should have added some time to his schedule, yes and the amount of time would be a percentage of the over all time of the project and also based on his general health. It probably wouldn't account for something that severe, but then getting something that severe is extremely small risk for the average person.

Quote:
And I should, by rights be screaming for his head, because its "his issue" that he could have died? Instead I just shrug my shoulders, wish him a good recovery..and wait like a grown up.

Where have I ever said anyone should scream for anyone's head. Please, show me the post where I have said that. And if you can't, well then we can tell who the actual mature one is, it is the person who isn't doing strawman arguments.

Quote:
If a writer has a child..or a spouse fall ill..maybe in addition to that, they have to work extra at their "real life" job to cover medical bills..the answer should be "well you should have thought about that before you started on a project"?

I can't help but think kickstarter must be awfully dangerous to a person's health. 75% of all kickstarter projects aren't delivered on time. If every one of those is because of a serious illness or death, that's so far beyond statistically probable I just don't know why people use it.

Quote:
If I was working on a project, and a family member died..finishing the project would take the back burner for as long as I needed to deal with what needed to get done.

Do you have an actual job? One where you're paid to show up and do something? If so, why don't you try this argument on your employer, see what they say and get back with me.

Quote:
If people decided that was not good enough..than I really don't need that money anyway,

Now there's something we can agree with. If a company can't fulfill its obligation it can return the money and no harm, no foul.

Quote:

vs someone that gives a damn about the person WRITING the material. Every author/artist is more important to me than a fictional book. You can't forget behind the "business" is a human writing because they enjoy the material, and enjoy making people happy.

Tell me, do you feel the same way when someone at McDonalds asks you to pull forward and wait on an order then serves the person after you? Do you feel the same way when a hostess tells you there's a wait for a table but you can see a table clearly empty? Do you feel the same way when you drop your computer off at an IT shop and you're told it'll be a couple of days and a week later they still haven't fixed it?

If the answers to the above 3 questions are all honestly yes, then I'm impressed, give yourself a cookie.

However, expecting to get what you paid for, by the delivery date of a contract, is not cruel, evil, and lacking empathy, it is simply good business.


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Blackerose wrote:
Every author/artist is more important to me than a fictional book. You can't forget behind the "business" is a human writing because they enjoy the material, and enjoy making people happy.

This. So very much this.

But then, these realizations don't mesh so well with current entitlement and instant gratification culture...

Liberty's Edge

Changing Man wrote:
Blackerose wrote:
Every author/artist is more important to me than a fictional book. You can't forget behind the "business" is a human writing because they enjoy the material, and enjoy making people happy.

This. So very much this.

But then, these realizations don't mesh so well with current entitlement and instant gratification culture...

When did expecting people to fulfill their promises become something to be looked down upon?


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I do want to say that I've kicked around the idea of starting a kickstarter project for a while now and this thread has really opened my eyes to important issues:

1. Plan to fail.....what's your backup plan if you don't succeed?
2. Communicate often and honestly....you're your own pr person and a lack of communication makes you look bad.
3. Make sure of your committment...Be reasonably sure that you can deliver on what you want to produce.
4. Explore ahead of time....Do a sample run on your project, try to produce part of it before asking for kickstarter money. That will give you an idea of the effort involved.

I agree that such projects are an agreement, but it seems that there's the assumption of malice here. We don't know that the publisher intends to defraud people. We don't know anything (which is the point). If we assume that they want to finish publication, then perhaps the lack of communication is a good thing: the person is so busy finishing the project off that they are distracted. It goes either way.

Anyway, I'm glad for the insight I've gained and if I do a Kickstarter project, I'm going to have a better understanding of what's expected of me.

Shadow Lodge

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ShadowcatX wrote:
When did expecting people to fulfill their promises become something to be looked down upon?

When it became a vile shit-slinging event rather than reasoned discussion.


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I don't really disagree that a kickstarter is a serious undertaking and commitment. I seem to recall that the completion date is explicitly called out as an estimate in kickstarters terms/FAQ though, as opposed to being a term of the contract between the creator and backers.


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Steve Geddes wrote:
I don't really disagree that a kickstarter is a serious undertaking and commitment. I seem to recall that the completion date is explicitly called out as an estimate in kickstarters terms/FAQ though, as opposed to being a term of the contract between the creator and backers.

Specifically in the Kickstarter Terms of Use:

Quote:

The Estimated Delivery Date listed on each reward is not a promise to fulfill by that date, but is merely an estimate of when the Project Creator hopes to fulfill by.

Project Creators agree to make a good faith attempt to fulfill each reward by its Estimated Delivery Date.
...
Kickstarter does not offer refunds. A Project Creator is not required to grant a Backer’s request for a refund unless the Project Creator is unable or unwilling to fulfill the reward.

Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill.

Not only that, but Kickstarter suggests the onus is on backers to determine, before they back the project, whether the campaign's creator planned the campaign well enough and is qualified to execute that plan:

Kickstarter FAQ: How do backers know if a project will follow through? wrote:
Backers should look for creators who share a clear plan for how their project will be completed and who have a history of doing so. Creators are encouraged to share links and as much background information as possible so backers can make informed decisions about the projects they support.

Someone who invests in projects run by poor planners is bad at investing. If a backer wants all projects to finish on time, they should go after Kickstarter to tighten the ToU, or better yet quit backing Kickstarter projects that don't advertise a thorough plan and the competence to deliver on it.

Paizo Employee CEO

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Gorbacz wrote:
While I understand the concept of business courtesy and that Lisa is a classy person, I half wish I knew why exactly JF left Paizo - that could have saved me 100$ which I could give to somebody who acts ethically

It isn't about business courtesy. It is about not revealing confidential information about an ex-employee that could end up getting you (the ex-employer) sued. Basically, all the information we ever give out about ex-employees is the dates they were employed and what their job title was. To give out anything else would open Paizo up to lawsuits, which is not a bridge I want to cross.

-Lisa


The sad thing about the FMG lack of contact is that he is still backing many many KS himself, I noticed his name in the very recent Scarlet Heroes RPG KS Patrons list.

Ironically this KS was fulfilled within a couple of weeks of finishing ;)

He has pretty much backed every RPG Kickstarter that has come out that I know of if you check his KS name from the Throne of Knight page.

Dark Archive

From my point of view, ShadowcatX is pretty much on the money. I'm sorry, I know this is a creative field, and I understand it's based on passion for gaming and it's a small community. Nevertheless, if you want to start a KS you should understand that if you're taking in 30 or 40 thousand dollars this isn't something to be done lightly.

This is reminding me a lot of 3.0 OGL avalanche of material. Every person who loves rolling d20s is coming out of the woodwork to make their own games. Truth is, most of the time it isn't necessarily their work that is bad but their project management. I'd go so far as to say that a lot of gamers could put together some great materiel, but few and far between have the business savvy to make it work. Heck someone brought up Paizo, I do believe Lisa has an MBA degree. Coincidence?

Having a couple of ideas and a picture drawn aren't enough. A lot of these projects haven't been done by people with proper experience in the field, by that I mean experience where they've had to work under an editor or whatever that has a real deadline to live up to.

I myself pretty much take the position that I'll only back KS for those companies or individuals that have proven themselves. To me, that's folks like FGG, Monte Cook, Kobold, Henry Lopez (Arcanis fella), Reaper, and I think I'm adding Dreamscarred and Legendary as well as they seem very reputable at this point IMO. Even the Judges Guild KS is a bit questionable to me, as while they as a company may have done some work I haven't heard much from the in years.

Yes, I understand that KS is a way to help creatives fund the projects they want. But without business acumen they have to rely upon trusted partners to make this happen. Part of that acumen is setting realistic project dates, having benchmarks for completion of sections, planning for a few holidays and sickdays, etc. Yes, by all means if an emergency happens that's fair enough, but I also agree with Shadowcat that I doubt MOST of the KS which have vanished or are late are due to that. There's something to be said about paying someone for the job once it's completed and not a minute before, and I think KS only helps to prove that.

Paizo Employee CEO

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Aarontendo wrote:
Heck someone brought up Paizo, I do believe Lisa has an MBA degree.

Wizards of the Coast actually paid for me to go and get my MBA when I worked there. I can tell you that I never worked harder than that two year period where I was working a full time job AND going to school to get my MBA. But it helped me so much once it was done. I can say that Paizo would have never happened if I didn't have my MBA. I always had great game ideas, but didn't have the know how to make them happen in a way that would make the company money AND produce great games. Now I do.

-Lisa

Dark Archive

ShadowcatX wrote:
Changing Man wrote:
Blackerose wrote:
Every author/artist is more important to me than a fictional book. You can't forget behind the "business" is a human writing because they enjoy the material, and enjoy making people happy.

This. So very much this.

But then, these realizations don't mesh so well with current entitlement and instant gratification culture...

When did expecting people to fulfill their promises become something to be looked down upon?

Yep, wow. I work hard at my job as a teacher, and I have a lot of student loans to pay back. Additionally, I'm paying for some further education.

I don't know anyone's personal situation here, but I'll say that my gaming budget isn't so great that I can just shrug when someone makes off with $100 and "goes dark" on a project. If others can throw money and shrug their shoulders about it God bless them for it. I do fail to see how wanting to get something that was paid for is entitlement. It's not as if people want something for free. They've paid over a year in advance for a product, which takes much of the finance burden off of the shoulders of the creator.

I'd also add that said the subject of this thread is a busy beaver when it comes to funding KS projects, close to 100 at this point so he's not exactly a starving artist...

If the author/artist can't live up to a contract, then it's time they went through a proper and reputable company to manage it for them until such time that they can live up to them. It doesn't mean they're bad, but it does mean they don't have the business chops to pull these things off (at least as of yet).


YOur last point is exactly what happened with Nick Logue (who rocks artistically) but didn't quite figure the Razor Coast business side. Along comes the amazing Lou Agresta armed with FGG powerz, BOOM, one of the most amazing adventures I've had the pleasure to own.


Lisa Stevens wrote:
Aarontendo wrote:
Heck someone brought up Paizo, I do believe Lisa has an MBA degree.

Wizards of the Coast actually paid for me to go and get my MBA when I worked there. I can tell you that I never worked harder than that two year period where I was working a full time job AND going to school to get my MBA. But it helped me so much once it was done. I can say that Paizo would have never happened if I didn't have my MBA. I always had great game ideas, but didn't have the know how to make them happen in a way that would make the company money AND produce great games. Now I do.

-Lisa

You say Paizo would not have happened with out you MBA is that more of an access to "money" situation or really understanding what a "successful" business should look like?

Paizo Employee CEO

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LMPjr007 wrote:
Lisa Stevens wrote:
Aarontendo wrote:
Heck someone brought up Paizo, I do believe Lisa has an MBA degree.

Wizards of the Coast actually paid for me to go and get my MBA when I worked there. I can tell you that I never worked harder than that two year period where I was working a full time job AND going to school to get my MBA. But it helped me so much once it was done. I can say that Paizo would have never happened if I didn't have my MBA. I always had great game ideas, but didn't have the know how to make them happen in a way that would make the company money AND produce great games. Now I do.

-Lisa

You say Paizo would not have happened with out you MBA is that more of an access to "money" situation or really understanding what a "successful" business should look like?

Just understanding the intricacies of the business world. There is a whole lot about running a successful business that is kind of contradictory to what you might think if you didn't have a business background. There is a LOT of spreadsheet analysis, statistical analysis, analysis of income statements, balance sheets, cash flow statements, etc. Then there is the whole competitive analysis aspect. Before I got my MBA, I was working at WotC as it was exploding in growth and I found myself unable to talk with a lot of my peers because they were talking about things that sounded like a foreign language. Getting my MBA was like learning that foreign language. I could now talk to them in a language they would understand. It seriously changed my life in such a positive way that I couldn't imagine NOT having an MBA. The good news is that I can be a savvy business person AND a understand what makes great game products. The creative and the business sides have been melded into one. :)

-Lisa


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Kickstarting is serious business. It takes time to craft one and then run it successfully, and then coordinate the follow-up...not in terms of a month or two, but a year or two.

Most gamers are not managers, or trained in business. ...it's a big leap between running a gaming table towards business management.

Many of the old MUDs and so on back in the day floundered or exploded because of this difference. Same is true for gaming publishers. "Hey, I love playing with my friends...why not make something everyone can enjoy?" Or, "Hey, I can design xyz better than...why not make some money doing what I love?"

So I wish the owners of Frog the best, and suggest there's a growing market out there for how to run and manage a successful Kickstarter from the gaming angle. Or better than that...courses and classwork combined, and it's never bad to hire the occasional consultant.


Aarontendo wrote:
ShadowcatX wrote:
Changing Man wrote:
Blackerose wrote:
Every author/artist is more important to me than a fictional book. You can't forget behind the "business" is a human writing because they enjoy the material, and enjoy making people happy.

This. So very much this.

But then, these realizations don't mesh so well with current entitlement and instant gratification culture...

When did expecting people to fulfill their promises become something to be looked down upon?

Your terminology is wrong here. They didn't promise you anything according to the ToS that I saw written above. They gave you an estimate. A hopeful estimate at that. The only promise they made via the KS is that you would get a product eventually. That's the only promise they should be held to. If it takes another three years for them to complete it, oh well. So long as that product makes it to your hand, you've gotten what you paid for, and their promise is fulfilled.

You're putting your own stipulations upon the contract that don't exist in the actual contract, then telling that person he's unethical. This sounds very much like hypocritical thinking to me. My suggestion: read what the contract says and expect nothing more than that. You won't be disappointed.

Aarontendo wrote:

Yep, wow. I work hard at my job as a teacher, and I have a lot of student loans to pay back. Additionally, I'm paying for some further education.

I don't know anyone's personal situation here, but I'll say that my gaming budget isn't so great that I can just shrug when someone makes off with $100 and "goes dark" on a project.

My advise to this would be stop throwing around your $100! I'm a teacher too, and I've never once given to a KS because, frankly, I don't have that kind of money to burn, period. From everything I'm reading here, most Kickstarters sound like they're nothing more than a shot in the dark. Why continually throw money at a shot in the dark? When the product hits the market, pay for it. If a KS gets you aggravated because the silly thing keeps failing, my suggestion would be to learn the first or second time to stop giving to them.

Or, learn to be a bit more patient. It may just take longer to get to you.

Aarontendo wrote:
I do fail to see how wanting to get something that was paid for is entitlement. It's not as if people want something for free. They've paid over a year in advance for a product, which takes much of the finance burden off of the shoulders of the creator.

That's not entitlement at all. Demanding to get something on an estimated delivery date, however, is beyond silly. As stated above: the only guarantee the KS makes is that you will get the product. Eventually. If that doesn't bode well you, my suggestion would once again be don't give to the KS.

Or, learn to be a bit more patient. ;)

Dark Archive

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on what an estimate is Subby. IF, say for example someone states they will deliver all 6 chapters of an AP in a year, and it turns out manages to get (1) out in that time, that's stretching the whole "estimate" to a whole new level.

I can only imagine if the rest of the world worked like this. Pizza delivered in 30 minutes? It's ok to get it after 3 hours instead. That estimate you were given for $1000? Here's your bill for $6000.

Now, mind you as someone up-thread stated, if they apologized for this and had some reason for it happening many wouldn't mind so much, and I happen to agree.

Also, for what it's worth I didn't happen to KS this, as I've said up-thread I only KS from companies with proven track records. And thankfully so! =)

Dark Archive

Aarontendo wrote:


I don't know anyone's personal situation here, but I'll say that my gaming budget isn't so great that I can just shrug when someone makes off with $100 and "goes dark" on a project.

I feel I should point out he hasent gone dark since he is posting updates again

Dark Archive

Fair enough, hoping it gets on track honestly. I've heard wonderful things about Way of the Wicked =)


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I think if you are really concerned about wasting your gaming dollars on a kickstarter that may be late or fail, than you probably shouldn't be investing in kickstarters period. Built into the Kickstarter terms of service is no guarantee of product or money back. Odds are, you are probably investing in a person who may not have much experience in either project management or design, on top of doing this stuff in free time between his family and work obligations. That people expect a kickstarter to precede in the same manner as an order from Amazon is hilarious.

I have a limited budget and from a financial standpoint a fairly uncertain future. I don't invest in kickstarters for this. I really wanted to chip in money on the Ultimate Psionics kickstarter..but hey, the product eventually came out and I was able to buy it on Paizo. So hey, I think if you are truly concerned about progress on kickstarters...DON'T INVEST.

Pathfinder Rules Conversion, Frog God Games

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As someone who is on a great team that has done several Kickstarters, and I believe all of them were late, one thing that may or may not have been brought up is: there is no obligation to back a product at the KS phase. If you are at all uncomfortable with the idea of not getting the product you think you will, or that the quality may not be there, don't back it, and wait for the commercial release. You may lose out on some "goodies", but the risk is then removed.

I'm not directing this at any specific people here, as I think there are good ideas and arguments on both sides. But Kickstarter is A business model; not THE business model. You don't have to buy in if you don't want too.

Skeeter (I personally dislike Kickstarters, and I approve this message)

<edit> wow, I had no idea it took me that long to type nearly the same message as MMCJawa did, lol>

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Me, I'm not even upset about Quantum and my overdue Kickstarters. The money is spent, and I don't need the stress of worrying over fifty dollars. Not everyone is laid back as I am of course. For some people that money is a big deal. So I can understand the anger even if it doesn't touch me.

Publisher, Dreamscarred Press

MMCJawa wrote:
I really wanted to chip in money on the Ultimate Psionics kickstarter..but hey, the product eventually came out and I was able to buy it on Paizo.

And we appreciate the support!


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For those saying "if you don't like the risk then don't do kickstarters", I think we all agree with you. The problem is that kickstarter is relatively new, so the knowledge that comes from the crowdfunding/ kickstarter experience is just now beginning to take shape, and some people haven't participated in enough to be able to judge what's good and what's bad.

I have already started doing as Skeeter suggests for most kickstarters - and that is just waiting until the product is out - unless the company either A) has a proven track record of successful kickstarters, or B) I'm not investing that much anyway, and therefore really don't care when it shows up.

The main thing that annoys me with new kickstarter these days is companies that are late on one kickstarter doing another (or releasing other products created since the first kickstarter funded) before the product of the first kickstarter is delivered.

Dark Archive

On the point that DaveMage is making, I would agree in general on the multiple KS at the same time thing. However, I think there can be some exceptions. Primarily this goes back to a rule of backing successful companies.

FGG is in that boat right now, but was very forthright in where they are on the progress of their previous KS for SoA. No problems backing for Barakus in that case, as they've a strong history.

Henry Lopez also wanted to delay his KS for a new Arcanis book until delivery of his latest KS, but so many fans wanted him to get it started so he did. Still, the fact he wanted to hold back I thought was classy by itself.

Agreed also on the newness of KS, and I think some of the best practices and unofficial norms haven't come together in their entirety yet. I'm hoping it does because KS has the potential to be an amazing way for creatives to publish fantastic RPG material. It also has the potential to drive so many away and evolve into an elaborate pre-order system for only proven companies. (My money is on the latter becoming the norm).

Dark Archive

Skeeter Green wrote:
As someone who is on a great team that has done several Kickstarters, and I believe all of them were late...

To be honest though, from what I've seen the one that had some pretty significant delays were from emergencies. And, the author(s) at that time were VERY open with it. More open than anyone expected and the community completely understood and was supportive (I think!).

In any event FGG will have a lot of good feelings coming their way for helping to pull Razor Coast outta Limbo. I think that's going to carry a lot of karma =)


Just be be clear - I don't mind two kickstarters. I only mind them if a company is *late* on the first one (which FGG is not).

And, for the record, I've been buying stuff from Necromancer/FGG since the early days so I'm never worried about supporting Bill Webb. He will *always* make it right.

Pathfinder Rules Conversion, Frog God Games

Dave-

Dammitttttt! its not just Bill <weeps>

Just kidding. I got your concerns you brought up, and I know you've been with us since darn near the beginning. Not enough of our fan get recognized for their support of us. What we do isn't special; but the people that trust us to continue to make games are.

Yerp, that's the booze talking...

:-)

Shadow Lodge

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I have the highest respect for FGG (all of you...even you, Skeerer!) and the way they run their Kickstarter. While I was for the most part late to the party for Necromancer Games, I've been a pretty big supporter of Frog God Games since the beginning, which I why I went into their first Kickstarter knowing that they would deliver...and that confidence has only been boosted by their numerous successful Kickstarters (each of which I'm proud to have backed).

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