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Hey there, everyone!
I was approached by another individual in the same playgroup as Preston, the fellow who brought the Edgewalker to my attention, and, after a little talking back and forth, I started work on a clairvoyant base class, the augur, that uses a deck of tarot-inspired cards as her source of power. I'll be making a print-and-play available, but I'd just like to check whether or not people would be interested in buying a physical deck of cards to play the class with. Given the price POD card printers charge, it won't be cheap. Probably 12-13 cents per card or so.
Mechanically, the augur is all about manipulating fate and circumstance. Retroactive dice modifications, rerolls, countering spells of a selected school, transforming energy types, attacks that can only be used if X happens first, and so on.
The augur builds a deck of cards (portents) every morning and deals a number based on her level out to herself. This is her maximum hand size. Portents are broken up into least, lesser, and greater. Whenever a lesser portent is used, all used least portents are reshuffled into the deck. Whenever a greater is used, all lessers are reshuffled. In this way, you -can- burn through your deck and draw all your best stuff, but it's really shooting your longevity in the foot if you do it. Cards are drawn as a move action(max 1 per turn), and using a greater portent tends to allow for spamming or least portents in the same round, thus dissuading you from using "draw, go!" in combat.
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Obviously, the use of a tarot-like deck would allow for far more imaginative class abilities, but I think building the class around a standard deck of cards would make it more accessible to would-be players.
This sounds really cool, and I like the idea of having a tarot-style deck. As you said, though, it would be expensive, and I know that personally, I'm always dismayed by shipping costs to Australia.
Perhaps a system to simulate the card-drawing using dice rolls? The class itself sounds fantastic, but I can't speak much on the logistics of the printed deck.
I'm not sure the levels of translation will be worth it, Ciaran. You're suggesting a table that says "The Two of Clubs is The Censure" and then you have to look up The Censure, yes?
How would you compare that level of annoyance with cutting out ten pages of paper and using those same cards as backs with some penny sleeves to keep it all together?
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First: it's a good idea for a class. I thought the Harrower prestige class was a bit lackluster. This might be an interesting alternative for the Bard niche? Divination, distraction, charm, suggestion, buffing, debuffing, lore? Bonus points if there is a "dark way" option where you try to cheat, which brings rewards but also risks.
I'd use a tarot deck, not a custom deck. There are thousands of nice tarot decks out there in the world with all kinds of fancy art, and they're widely available.
A custom deck on the other hand is awkward - you'd either have to have it shipped to you (expensive) or find a good printer (also expensive).
If you make a tarot-driven class, you can sell people the PDF and they can combine it with a tarot deck they already have. Bonus: they can take a tarot deck with artwork matching their character or the campaign, if they wish.
If you do use a tarot deck, it would be nice if the effects were somewhat related to the mainstream meaning of the cards. But maybe not using upside-down cards; not all decks have symmetric card backs (mine doesn't, but it's otherwise very pretty), and it might also be fussy at the table.
First: it's a good idea for a class. I thought the Harrower prestige class was a bit lackluster. This might be an interesting alternative for the Bard niche? Divination, distraction, charm, suggestion, buffing, debuffing, lore? Bonus points if there is a "dark way" option where you try to cheat, which brings rewards but also risks.
I'd use a tarot deck, not a custom deck. There are thousands of nice tarot decks out there in the world with all kinds of fancy art, and they're widely available.
A custom deck on the other hand is awkward - you'd either have to have it shipped to you (expensive) or find a good printer (also expensive).
If you make a tarot-driven class, you can sell people the PDF and they can combine it with a tarot deck they already have. Bonus: they can take a tarot deck with artwork matching their character or the campaign, if they wish.
If you do use a tarot deck, it would be nice if the effects were somewhat related to the mainstream meaning of the cards. But maybe not using upside-down cards; not all decks have symmetric card backs (mine doesn't, but it's otherwise very pretty), and it might also be fussy at the table.
Agree with this 780000 percent.
@El Ronza - if there is a PDF version you can just take it to Office Choice or similar and get them to print it on your preferred card stock perhaps….?
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Are you saying that having a tarot deck would be unacceptable, but RPGs okay? Weird...
The one-stop-shop thing might be true I suppose. But for me, the hassle of ordering physical products from US to the Netherlands is just as much of an obstacle. I'm not going to order physical products unless I already have complete confidence in the publisher - which is to the disadvantage of 3PP material.
I'm not sure the levels of translation will be worth it, Ciaran. You're suggesting a table that says "The Two of Clubs is The Censure" and then you have to look up The Censure, yes?
How would you compare that level of annoyance with cutting out ten pages of paper and using those same cards as backs with some penny sleeves to keep it all together?
I think it sounds like a fun idea for a class. I agree that it would make things easier to tie the cards to some form of commercially available cards.
I like the idea of being able to print out the cards and attach them in some form to playing cards (which are relatively inexpensive). I also like the idea of connecting them with the Tarot deck (though I understand Changing Man's objection, too).
My suggestion would be to do both. Have the last pages of the pdf be the deck, sized to fit on/with playing cards (per your idea above), but have all the cards also correspond to the Tarot deck and Playing card deck via a table. See for example the Deck of Illusions and the Deck of Many Things.
That way, cheap players like me could print out the cards, cut them out and use them [glue/tape/insert into penny sleeves with] standard playing cards (or just use the playing cards themselves). Those who want to print them out on cardstock can do so (maybe design a card back as well?). Players who want to pay for POD could go that route. Players who want to use a Tarot/Harrow deck can go that route.
You could even release a free supplement under the Creative Use License that uses the Harrow specifically (or submit a refit of the class that uses the Harrow to Wayfinder).
Those are my thoughts.
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I like having a prop to ease the gameplay (hate looking up tables if I can help it), and keep in character, but it's awkward if the game stops, if the prop can't be found, and all the info was on the cards.
So regardless of the physical format of the final deck, it is ideal to include a way of simulating the draw using die rolls, in case the Augur's player can't make it to the game.
As long as the GM has his character sheet and a copy of the pdf, they can be proxied, despite the physical deck of cards being in the player's coat pocket/desk/etc.
I know I can do this with Harrow cards, using colour-coded d6/d3/d3, for Ability/Ethics/Morals (eg 2/3/2=Dex/C/N=The Rabbit Prince).
If the number of cards in each of least, lesser and greater portents were in common/uncommon/rare ratios that lent themselves to easy division via die roll, that would be ideal.
I'd buy it, but you probably already knew that. =P
There should probably be a chart or something (or as you said something players can print out) for people who can't afford shipping costs or whatnot though too (like a deck of many things or whatnot). Making it accessible would help a lot I would think.
I'll second maybe touching base with Fire Mountain Games. I actually did kickstart those decks of cards and there were tons of delays and troubles getting them. I don't know what specifically, he really didn't keep the backers updated well but couldn't hurt asking.
...Wow, I've struck a nerve here, haven't I? Alright, so what I'm seeing is that a randomization system with physical pieces needs to be able to do the following.
Be accessible, both to the player and to the player's group if that player cannot attend. This itself means two things.
1: If there are physical cards, there needs to be a print-and-play option for those who don't want to pay egregious printing and shipping costs.
2: Cutting out cards and sticking them to other cards is something the character's player should be expected to do (because it saves time over tables), there should be a way to get randomized draws without the deck itself just in case the deck is lost or if the player needs to go on autopilot.
This is difficult, because I'm not just going for "class with a deck", but I'm rather going for active deckBUILDING. Thinking it through, I can make this work by having a table that equates each ability that the class has with a playing card, though high level characters will require two decks... and the system I was considering uses 55 unique cards. How common are the copyright/rules of play cards and how many people hold onto them? If need be, I can axe one greater portent to make it fit.
That does beg the question: with all that support and the prevailing opinion on this thread, is it even worth my time to build the special 160-page PDF that OneBookShelf will want to create that deck of cards?
I will concede that your idea of printing out cards and sleeving them is a pretty good one. I played MTG for years, and I never liked sleeves. So, my personal preference would be for an actual deck. If it was a customized deck with abilities printed on the cards, then so much the better. I was just suggesting that making room in the rules for a deck of standard cards to be used would be attractive to gamers who had neither the print outs nor the custom deck.
Aye, the deck I have in mind will be very text-heavy.
It may also include filigree given how much the community loves the stuff.
How about some kind of downloadable app? A couple of players in my group often play with a device handy for referencing so an app would be even more convenient than a deck of cards. This app could use several pre-built decks to keep programming manageable.
That's not me, I'm afraid. I know enough Ruby to build something that would work, but haven't messed with Ruby on Rails, so I'd have to require people install the programming language to use the app.
@Changing
I've already begun designing around the tarot deck. There will be 54 abilities to allow for compatibility with a tarot deck or poker cards (two decks of poker may be required at high levels). Barring 20 pages of emergency tables with one example deck per character level, I don't think there will be a way to play the class without having a deck of cards with you, given the deck size grows as you level and all. I just hope four different types of compatible decks is enough.
Of course. Expect the joys of being screwed over by not having what you want drawn with this class, though. Also reshuffling.
Every time you play a greater, your expended lessers are shuffled back in.
Every time you play a lesser, your expended leasts are shuffled back in.
In this way, digging through your deck to get the best stuff is subtly discouraged in that it ruins your long-term viability.
A question, now that I think of it. Will you want all the spells listed out in classic spellbook format, plus the print and play cards?
I think having the full descriptions on the cards would be fine, but for ease of use a chart like most spell-casters get separating them into least, lesser, and greater and a really short description of what they do would be very useful.
Absolutely, particularly since there's no price reduction on black and white versus color when printing cards through OneBookShelf. I'm considering colored borders for each of the power levels of portents, as well as little symbols in the border that hint at what the card does.
Colors and Power Level
Green - Least
Blue - Lesser
Red - Green
Power Type
Offense - Sword
Defense - Shield
Manipulate - Silhouette of a Head
Support/Heal - A hospital cross
It did. ^^
Beyond the colors and the symbols, there won't be much art. Though compatible with tarot cards, the print and play and, therefore, the deck I also offer for printing, will be poker-sized for easy sleeving. That and the cheapest I found tarot printing would force me to charge around $25 for a deck.
If the art is good, some people would pay that much for a deck a cards. You are familiar with the geeks in your demographic, right? ;)
Yes, I'm familiar with that aspect of the demographic, but I'm also the jobless guy living at home fighting to grow a business without any money. (The dayjob was sucking my soul and all.) Art, beyond borrowing from a public domain tarot deck, can't be a thing unless I kickstart it.
Well I like mixing up the mechanics
Aye, that's what I can afford to do, hence me attempting to claim my spot in the industry by being as ridiculous as possible. See tinker, herbalist, brewmaster, ethermancer :P
From a creative point of view, I wager that card abilities that correspond to actual taros would be more interesting, despite the hugeness of that task. But then again, a book told me that my tarot is the Fool.
Already doing it, though I'm taking some liberties. It says here The Empress means "action, development, and evolution", so drawing cards and getting a temporary increase to max hand size sounds kinda close.
Believe it or not, this is actually making the job easier. Focuses the creativity nicely.
Sounds awesome. :)
That's a no on synergy, Changing Man. There's no classic spellcasting here to meet the requirements.
Dot me interested.
Ah well. Multi-class then, no biggie :)
as an aside, my wife is also considerably intrigued. Her question was, 'so when is this going on sale?'
Well, this class, like the edgewalker, is another high-level concept request from a customer that I thoroughly twisted and then asked if they liked it. To that end, I can't tell you precisely when it's going on sale, because the fellow who came up to me to begin with gets partial veto power over the final product. It's just polite.
I should have a rough copy of the 54 abilities to go into the deck by the end of the 3rd. From there, I'm building a pool of "fate points" that let you dig for cards you want, draw faster, hit multiple targets with least and lesser portents, and other things that help the class not get bogged down in throwing moderately effective abilities at single targets and wondering why other casters do it better. I'm also including a small list of spontaneous spells. That is to say, pitch a greater from your hand to "bestow curse" (at later levels, pitch two lessers instead) is a thing the class will be able to do.
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Loving this so much! :D
Alright, so all of the major arcana are linked to a card. All greater portents are linked to major arcana, with... 6 demoted to lesser because there are more major arcana than there are top tier spells for a system that's compatible with both poker and tarot.
Given this is a random power system, the "spontaneous" spell selection is hugely important. I'll be focusing on curses, divinations, and abilities I want for the class that simply won't fit on a card. What else would you want to be able to pull at will with your augur? Please try not to go past 6th level spells :)
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This is difficult, because I'm not just going for "class with a deck", but I'm rather going for active deckBUILDING.
Ah, that surprised me, since the theme of the class being augury and fate, I inferred that they would receive their daily powers via chance.
Then figure a way to make the best of the daily 'hand they'd been dealt', as it were.It can still work, with some powers being fixed, to reflect the PC's 'signature' (in the sense of bloodlines, patrons, domains, inquisitions, etc...), with the rest being fickle.
At higher levels, the ability to redraw (reroll) unwanted cards could mitigate some of the downside of the randomness.
And what Roman augur didn't push a political agenda at least once when she said the gods were displeased? Manipulation of fate for personal gain is as much a part of the theme as anything else, so ways to stack the deck and reduce randomness are certainly going front and center.
Mechanically speaking, it allows augurs to differentiate themselves from each other. Without odds-fixing like deckbuilding or an herbalist's potted plants in a random power source class, the absolute number of builds, and, thus, the replayability of the class, plummets.
Signature abilities would end up producing nested searching. By making it so I can't write what it is each ability does in summary tables because the abilities are not rigidly codified, I increase the annoyance to new players, decrease the usefulness of the tables, and increase the difficulty of play for people who are trying to play an augur whose player is down for the count.
On table: "Ace of Pentacles" = Lesser Signature Portent B (see "bloodlines")
In "bloodline section": Lesser Signature Portent B does this.
My solution to this is to produce "signature" abilities that are not tied to cards. That is, a "metaportent" system with its own point pool. You, of course, get to pick each of your metaportents. I'm considering marrying this with the portentous magic system I thought up yesterday. Two systems modifying the cards are simply too much, and I've added a separate fortune telling system to get some roleplay value out of the class, so I need to do some simplification anyway.
Examples:
Did you play a greater? Awesome, 1 point to toss out a lesser as a move action or toss out a least as a move action for free.
I see you're playing a least. Pay 1 point to make it affect a creature within 10 feet of your target?
Wanna pay a point to rearrange the top three cards of your deck? (Expect a Sensei's Divining Top reference here.)
Aye, the name itself may change. I'm getting less comfortable with it with each class feature. A flop to soothsayer is a strong possibility. (That being said, augur just SOUNDS nice, and a lot of this hobby got named for that very reason.)
I'm also going to try to put together a pure luck archetype sans deckbuilding for those seeking a more "pure" experience.
Yeah. Not a fan of "augur" as it is also a homophone for the drilling "auger"...
I prefer terms like Ovate or Haruspex regardless of the tarot/card link. But then you know me and naming conventions Bradley. I'll never forget reading Asterix and the Soothsayer as a kid, but I now can't take soothsayers as anything other than toothy frauds...
Aye. The name's really in the air. Unlike other classes, where I feel the need to add, this class is lending itself to so many cool abilities and subsystems that I'm going to have to split it up into archetypes. On the plus side, I can cut and separate to make archetypes instead of build each from scratch. On the other hand, it's not the way I usually work, so I'm feeling a bit vulnerable here.