What does it take to change your alignment in pfs?


Pathfinder Society

Shadow Lodge 2/5

I'm wanting to shift the alignment of my Groetus Cleric from CG to CN as he starts to become closer to his god and prepare to ascend to divine scion and I'm wondering if their are any special rules to adjudicate that alignment shift.

Scarab Sages

1. It's not too easy to shift your alignment in Pathfinder Society, and I think that's the way it should be.

2. Every DM should be aware that, if a player declares an action that threatens a substantial impact on their alignment, relationship with their deity, Paladin Code of Conduct (even if it wouldn't otherwise change their Lawful Good alignment) Cavalier Order Edicts, Druidic vows, or other things of that sort, they are obligated to warn the player that it will have that impact (obviously, the player still needs to keep it in mind too) before they go through with it.

3. If a PC consciously desires to change their alignment, the easiest way to do so obviously to just say "I've had a change of heart, I feel a little differently about the world now, my alignment is now THIS" - but I don't know if that's allowed in Organized Play (and I mean that 100% literally; it might be); failing that, you might be able to explain an abrupt alignment shift by way of, for example, electrocution, heart disease, head injury, a nervous breakdown, or just a profound life experience, all things which can actually change people's personalities and are entirely believable occurrences in the life of an adventurer. It may or may not cut more ice in Pathfinder Society than just saying "EUREKA!"

4. If your Cleric still only has 3 or fewer experience under his belt, you're still free to change basically anything about your character, including alignment.

5. Failing options #3 and #4, achieving what you want is actually relatively easy in your case - stop making an effort to help others and right wrongs, be a little more withdrawn and cruel, be less of an Arundhati Roy-type (which is my default image of CG Groetus-worshippers: "Another world is not only possible, she is on her way. On a quiet day, I can hear her breathing.") and more of the stereotypical rag-man on the street-corner screaming "DOOOOOM!" A CG character becomes CN most likely because they just. Plain. Give. Up. Alternatively, maybe they become bitter and cynical - they haven't entirely given up, but their heart's been bleeding so long it's finally dried up. They're still willing to do Good, but they're not going to try as hard. Based on the character you're describing and their aspirations, they may have come to the point of saying, "I want the End Times to come sooner, not later, and I need to FOCUS on that; the sooner Groetus descends, the sooner It and only IT can alleviate the world's suffering - PERMANENTLY!"

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

When one of my characters shifted alignments, he purchased an atonement.

Shadow Lodge 2/5

I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:

1. It's not too easy to shift your alignment in Pathfinder Society, and I think that's the way it should be.

2. Every DM should be aware that, if a player declares an action that threatens a substantial impact on their alignment, relationship with their deity, Paladin Code of Conduct (even if it wouldn't otherwise change their Lawful Good alignment) Cavalier Order Edicts, Druidic vows, or other things of that sort, they are obligated to warn the player that it will have that impact (obviously, the player still needs to keep it in mind too) before they go through with it.

3. If a PC consciously desires to change their alignment, the easiest way to do so obviously to just say "I've had a change of heart, I feel a little differently about the world now, my alignment is now THIS" - but I don't know if that's allowed in Organized Play (and I mean that 100% literally; it might be); failing that, you might be able to explain an abrupt alignment shift by way of, for example, electrocution, heart disease, head injury, a nervous breakdown, or just a profound life experience, all things which can actually change people's personalities and are entirely believable occurrences in the life of an adventurer. It may or may not cut more ice in Pathfinder Society than just saying "EUREKA!"

4. If your Cleric still only has 3 or fewer experience under his belt, you're still free to change basically anything about your character, including alignment.

5. Failing options #3 and #4, achieving what you want is actually relatively easy in your case - stop making an effort to help others and right wrongs, be a little more withdrawn and cruel, be less of an Arundhati Roy-type (which is my default image of CG Groetus-worshippers: "Another world is not only possible, she is on her way. On a quiet day, I can hear her breathing.") and more of the stereotypical rag-man on the street-corner screaming "DOOOOOM!" A CG character becomes CN most likely because they just. Plain. Give. Up. Alternatively, maybe they become...

My plan was that his fall from G is that he is literally starting to hear god talking to him directly, sculpting him to be his hand on earth and asking him to let the catastrophe and void he studies and follows more into his heart. He starts muttering to himself, couping enemies with extreme prejudices, and sort of mindlessly droning prophetic scripture as the future of golarion and the mutterings of his prophetic apocalypse god drone through his head like a ceaseless drum. Also he's being tasked with proving his devotion by collecting soul pieces for his god by using his death knell to both prove devotion and for whatever purposes Groetus might have.

Currently my issue isn't rp'ing out his transformation I just want to make sure that this will actually help coerce his alignment shift.

Shadow Lodge 2/5

Chris Mortika wrote:

When one of my characters shifted alignments, he purchased an atonement.

But that can't be the only way. Otherwise how can anyone's actions or alignment monitoring really matter if the only real way for it to change is to pay for a spell to be cast?

Silver Crusade 2/5

Welcome to PFS. Because its an episodic campaign shared among GMs, alignment is largely swept under the rug. Basically, feel free to act how you want, and as long as you don't hit "burn down an orphanage for fun" levels of evil, its all ok.

5/5 5/55/55/5

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Alexander_Damocles wrote:
Welcome to PFS. Because its an episodic campaign shared among GMs, alignment is largely swept under the rug. Basically, feel free to act how you want, and as long as you don't hit "burn down an orphanage for fun" levels of evil, its all ok.

Right, you need to justify burning down the orphanage, and then make sure you keep track of the gold you spent on marshmellows for the cookout :) .


Alexander_Damocles wrote:
Welcome to PFS. Because its an episodic campaign shared among GMs, alignment is largely swept under the rug. Basically, feel free to act how you want, and as long as you don't hit "burn down an orphanage for fun" levels of evil, its all ok.

Or you could do something not quite as bad as this, but still very much not good, and have your GM note on your chronicle sheet a an alignment infraction and a shift toward the evil spectrum of the alignment scale. shifting you to CN. not that I'm encouraging you to anything bad or play the system to get a free alignment change.

Silver Crusade 2/5

Dude. Mad spoilers there, bro.

Sczarni 4/5

edited to remove benefit. Sorry bro.

Silver Crusade 2/5

Still a huge spoiler for that scenario...

5/5 5/55/55/5

I think the clock ran out on him

Sczarni 4/5

alignment shift? yeah sorta spoiler, but not huge... you have the choice of saying no.

Scarab Sages

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"What makes a man turn Neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of Neutrality?"

doc the grey wrote:


My plan was that his fall from G is that he is literally starting to hear god talking to him directly, sculpting him to be his hand on earth and asking him to let the catastrophe and void he studies and follows more into his heart. He starts muttering to himself, couping enemies with extreme prejudices, and sort of mindlessly droning prophetic scripture as the future of golarion and the mutterings of his prophetic apocalypse god drone through his head like a ceaseless drum. Also he's being tasked with proving his devotion by collecting soul pieces for his god by using his death knell to both prove devotion and for whatever purposes Groetus might have.

The problem with that being that death knell has the [Evil] descriptor, and "a cleric can't cast spells of an alignment opposed to her own or her deity's (if she has one)." You're presently Good-aligned, even if your deity isn't, so you won't be able to cast that spell at all until after you've achieved your alignment shift (AND the spell itself wouldn't shift your alignment anyways - it's just a magical coup de grace, and coup de graces aren't inherently Evil acts either; it means "strike of mercy," after all).

I don't recommend the whole "go from Good to Neutral by committing a few unambiguously Evil acts" - it's true, some characters qualify as Neutral because they vacillate so much between Good and Evil that it comes out a wash (and admittedly, such a character is either a fanatic or a lunatic, so it could totally work for a Cleric of Groetus), BUT "Neutral" doesn't have to, and in most cases does not, mean "some Good, some Evil" - it means "active Good and Evil both take some sort of certain active effort, and this character doesn't demonstrate any of it." This is also a good road to go for a Cleric of Groetus - Groetus isn't merely apathetic, It's arguably oblivious to even its own worshipers.

I really think the best way for a Good character to shift to Neutrality, action-wise, is to just stop doing overtly Good things, and make a conscious decision NOT to do overtly Good things when given the opportunity in the future. See a stranger suffering and in need? Ignore them. See a wrong that should be righted or the opportunity to plant a tree under whose shade you may never sit? Don't bother. Life sucks and this world is beyond redemption, only Groetus can take the pain away.

Forgive me if this bit is obvious, but make your goal clear to your DM - for all you know, they might be willing to go so far as to say, "presto change-o, you're Chaotic Neutral!" Alternatively, what has your character done to make it clear he's Good-aligned? Anything a Neutral-aligned Pathfinder wouldn't have done? If the answer is in the neighborhood of "not much, really," I'd call that a persuasive case to say, "you were Chaotic Neutral all along, really, editing your character sheet's a formality" - and it's not like it's recorded anywhere on your Chronicles anyways.

Scarab Sages

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Alexander_Damocles wrote:
Welcome to PFS. Because its an episodic campaign shared among GMs, alignment is largely swept under the rug. Basically, feel free to act how you want, and as long as you don't hit "burn down an orphanage for fun" levels of evil, its all ok.
Right, you need to justify burning down the orphanage, and then make sure you keep track of the gold you spent on marshmellows for the cookout :) .

Actually, I briefly participated in a 3.5 RAVENLOFT game - RAVENLOFT! - where there was a case of one of the players (this happened before I got there) literally burning down an orphanage. He had to flirt with a Dark Powers check, and may have even been nailed by it, but it turned out there was some kind of justification, so all was forgiven - and understand, this was a hardcore, wonderful, pretty model gaming group, and the DM was 1st-Edition generation at least with a particular fondness for the Ravenloft setting (I tried taking the opportunity to play a Tome of Magic Binder, but he went so far as to judge Pact Magic to be a form of Necromancy, and hence an inherent magnet for minimum-risk Dark Powers checks, so I became a Truenamer instead - I played the "Evil Pinocchio" adventure and so was forced to spend the majority of the game as a near-powerless wooden doll, but I got my body and powers back long enough to be able to testify that yes, with a few subtle modifications to the system, Truename Magic works just fine).

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

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Most of the classic villains in literature are orphans. He was simply being pro-active.


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Quote:
What does it take to change your alignment in pfs?

A pencil?

:)

-j

1/5

I remember this under discussion a while back when my character started to feel more chaotic than I had originally planned him (for a brief time I thought drugs were PFS legal; when I found out they weren't I fluffed his day job roll that he was a seller [caravan] to keep with the concept.) While there was never any official word, the overwhelming opinion expressed was that unless you were trying to cheese your way around paying for an atonement, just do it.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Quite frankly, if you're shifting your alignment to be closer to that of your patron diety, I don't consider it an issue. Just peg the change down and start playing the alignment.

The contentious part is the Chaotic Neutral alignment. It's not a license to play an acceptable version of Chaotic Evil. (You also have to finesse the balance between the "It's all about me" alignment, and the fact that you do need to play well with the others at your gaming table. The Champions of Balance book has a lot to say on this, and related topics. I highly recommend the purchase.

Scarab Sages

LazarX wrote:
You also have to finesse the balance between the "It's all about me" alignment....

I just want to go on record as saying that that characterization of CN is a complete misconception.

I could go into exhaustive analysis of the history, sociology, politics, psychology, philosophy, linguistics, and pragmatics explaining why this is a fallacy and where it comes from, but one only has so much time.

Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live.
― Oscar Wilde

Shadow Lodge 3/5

I asked this question a year ago.

Just be smart about it and don't abuse it.

Changing by one step between sessions is a good rule of thumb and shouldn't hurt anything, just as long as it's for (at least mostly) roleplay reasons.

If it's because you've broken a class feature by, say, a paladin going from Lawful Good to Lawful Neutral, you'll need an atonement.

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