I was told that Modules in PFS give 3 xp, and a max of 4pp, and that didn't seem too appealing to apply to my level 1 character that I plan to be my main. I figure I might as well invest it toward a new character in the future and I threw this together really quickly.
I plan on going with the Lore Warden, but not having proficiency with means I need to get Elven Chain as armor for best protection. Other archetypes for fighter are appreciated obviously, but I feel that I want to no matter what go straight fighter for this build.
I am choosing Half-Elf due to switching out racial traits for Darkvision (drow-blooded), and maybe the Drow Magic for darkness to pop out once a day. The ability to not be put to sleep, and if I was human I would choose exotic weapon prof anyways, so Ancestral Arms comes in handy for the crit reach weapon I've selected.
I plan to get keen on my Fauchard as soon as possible, but if there are any items that will help me bypass having to spend the gold on enhancing it and is legal for PFS, please help me out by informing me.
For traits, I feel like I definitely am taking Defensive Strategist so I am not flat-footed at the start of combat, but the other I need help with.
Skills I believe I am investing in, Perception, Acrobatics, Climb, Knowledge Local, and Knowledge Nature. I have never used knowledge skills, but Lore Warden gets 2 points for them, and makes them class skills. I figure with the level 7 ability that these would be the most helpful when dealing with things I would like to trip.
1. (GF)Power Attack, (BF) Combat Reflexes, (Ancestral Arms) Fauchard proficiency
2. (Lore Warden BF)Combat Expertise, (BF) Improved trip
3. (GF) Fury's Fall
4. Weapon Focus
5. Weapon Specialization
6. Greater Trip
7. Lunge
8. Improved Critical
9. Greater Weapon Focus
And these are the ability scores I figure would be best.
STR 16 (18)
DEX 16
CON 11
INT 13
WIS 10
CHA 7
I am new to the PFS, so I will need help with figuring out what is legal while I sift through it myself.
The critical aspect of the build to do damage is appealing, but I've always wanted to try a whip character. I need to look into the build, because I don't really know too much about it.
What should I be looking at for a threaten range of 15 ft so AoO's can trigger? I'm still very much interested in improving the build I wrote up, but details on the whip build would be great to gave as well.
EDIT: I found improved whip mastery. Seems like too many feats though.
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Half-Elves: all alernate racial traits except drow-blooded and drow magic are legal for play; all racial subtypes except drow-descended are legal for play; all favored class options are legal for play; all racial archetypes except wild caller are legal for play. For the bonded witch archetype, energy siege shot is replaced with resounding shot (Advanced Player's Guide 238) at 10th level and arcane cannon is replaced with fire brand (Advanced Player's Guide 222) at 14th level under the bonded item weapon entry; all half-elven equipment, magic items, and spells are legal for play; all half-elven feats except Half-Drow Paragon are legal for play.
Also, while whip mastery seems like alot of feats, consider the benefit and the fact that you're a fighter, you got feats to burn. If you're going to focus on tripping your weapon spec feats etc aren't as important as making trip work better etc.
Picking up combat reflexes and having a 15ft threat range means you can cover a huge area and trip everywhere you want.
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This build looks pretty good. Few things to point you towards.
First:Ki Throw. Its one of the few ways a fighter can do a bit of battlefield control. It is a nice way to help with positioning in PFS, which can be pretty important.
Second:Felling Smash. As a fighter, you will have to move every once in a while, so being able to make a single attack both damage and trip is great. I'd take this at level 8 instead of Improved Critical, and put Keen on the Fauchard. It helps fighters get out of SSOS Syndrome [Stand Still or Suck], as it gives you something to do with both your standard action and your swift action, as well as letting you move in a round and still get 2 attacks[Greater Trip AoO+Normal Attack]
Third:I'd skip Climb and Perception investment, or at least, go light on it. Perception isn't a class skill, so unless you decide to make it one, you will be behind on it from practically every other combat class. 98% of the time, someone else will have it covered. Climb is rarely more than a DC 15 in PFS from my experience, so you may as well only put 1 rank in it for the Class Skill Bonus, and then go full Knowledge. You will encounter quite a few trippable extraplaner creatures, as well as a good number of Magical Beasts and Constructs, so being able to invest in Knowledge Arcana and Planes will be helpful.
And Finally:You might want to consider dropping either Strength or Dex down in favor of Con. As a frontline Melee fighter you generally want to have at least a 14Con, unless the concept involves a low Con, or you have reliable self-healing.
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Ki Throw. Its one of the few ways a fighter can do a bit of battlefield control. It is a nice way to help with positioning in PFS, which can be pretty important.
On a successful unarmed trip attack against a target your size or smaller, you may throw the target prone in any square you threaten rather than its own square.
Plus, OP specified straight-fighter, which makes the prereqs for Ki Throw impracticable.
Update: My guy seems like he will be leveling up quite quickly in the coming month. Pretty much, he will be in many modules, and hopefully getting 4PP per level, which I think he'll end at like level 8.
Assuming that I earn 4pp each time, I would like opinions on appropriate gear. I am definitely enhancing my weapon, and buying ElfChain because I can only use light armor, but properly investing in weapons is something I worry about since I've never experienced PFS really, or getting a range of weapons. Adamanitine Fauchard a good idea? Seriously, I need help planning gear due to these circumstances.
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I'm not sure I'd worry about having adamantium as anything but a back up weapon to go smashing with (and save it for later levels)
Also look at your table make up, if you can get someone at your table to cast greater magic weapon on you... that's hr/lvl duration and a solid boost to the table for benefit. (like wise with natural armor, ala barkskin)
I'd rather see someone get a +2 weapon or a +1 weapon (and save up for holy/etc) than to see them buy an adamantium weapon right out the gate.
Also don't forget medium mithral armor counts as light.. (although you still take ACP to attack rolls etc if you're not proficient, but with mithral many mediums are zero acp.)
Save your prestige until you have 20, then after that feel free to buy wand of infernal or wand of cure light for your comrades to use on you.
Elven chain counts as light, so that is why I believe it is absolutely my best option.
Suggestions for a backup weapon? I'm keeping a normal longbow on me, but I'm unsure if I should pay for it to be enhanced, or even put a strength on it (which means investing in composite).
Official door knocking hand.
I think enhancing the bow might be better than 3k on a power glove. Flying creatures seem much more dangerous, but then again I'm not too sure what to expect.
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If you want to go whip fighter, go half-orc. You can get free whip proficiency by switching out the Racial Weapon Proficiency trait in the ARG; you still get your darkvision and can keep ferocity for one more round of action when you're brought down or turn it into +1 to all saves.
About the fauchard... I have to ask, do you have the Classic Monsters Revisited? The VL in me asks to make sure since it's arguably one of the most powerful weapons out there (and I think most powerful reach weapon), but good to confirm that you have the source that makes it legal.
My suggestion for a whip fighter would look like this.
1 Weapon Focus - Whip, Weapon Finesse
2. Whip Mastery, Combat Expertise
3. Improved Trip
4. Combat Reflexes
5. Imp Whip Mastery
6. Greater Trip
7. Weapon Spec - Whip
8. Serpent Lash (if you have the Rival Guide) or Greater Whip Mastery
9. Greater Serpent Lash (if you have the Rival Guide) or Imp Crit
Just go with Agile weapons (if you have the Pathfinder Society Field Guide).
Of course I own that source. See, it's rright here *hands you 500 bucks... in monopoly money*
Dont do whips, stick with Polearms. You will do plenty o damage.
Also, based on my experience with tripping the Lore Warden is not neccessary. Against Humanoids your CMB scales faster than their cmd. I suggest the Polearm Fighter archetype instead.
Also just gonna say, Urban Barb, Slayer, and guide Rangers are just as good at tripping fools.
I need to study slayer I guess, but lore warden is necessary because of the free combat expertise. If it wasn't a matter of being a crit build to take up a feat for the weapon, then definitely.
Also, the safer the success the better, but fury fall will only gain a plus three, which I could instead take expertise if I did polearm master...
Anyone have a link to an existing chart with monster cmd vs trip, or could do done calculations on these builds?
So, at some point you wont be able to trip non-humanoids.
In PFS play though, as a Lore Warden you will be able to trip anything easily, except spiders and untripable foes.
From what I wrote I calculate a total for level 9 on CMB
9 BAB
5 Str
1 (str belt +2)
2 Weapon Training
4 Maneuver Mastery
2 Weapon Focus'
4 Greater/Improved Trip
3 Fury's Fall
2 Weapon Enhancements (+2 Weapon)
9+5+1+2+4+2+4+3+2=32 CMB
Or Polearm master, and changing no free Combat Expertise, and no Fury's fall.
9 BAB
5 Str
1 (str belt +2)
2 Weapon Training
2 Weapon Focus'
4 Greater/Improved Trip
2 Weapon Enhancements (+2 Weapon)
9+5+1+2+2+4+2=25
or +2 on readied attacks or AoO's = 27
So we're looking at a difference of 5-7 points between these adjustments. Obviously Fury's Fall, and Maneuver Mastery help out a lot at lower levels, and throughout for that matter.
So let's say I with the 25 build roll 10's each time, which is a 35, what things in the game am I not beating that would be showing up in PFS? After reviewing Polearm master, and seeing how it will help me to hit things better looks pretty tempting, and I can always grab Fury's Fall later on, which really closes the gap.
Anyone also have any feat suggestions after level 9, or a better selection for the build? Normal Fauchard too?
I would just get a Keen Fauchard and drop improved critical (they don't stack) if you are limited by feats. I'm not sure that greater weapon focus and weapon specialization are your best use of limited feats either. Trip fighter is a pretty feat intensive build and you don't have a lot of levels to work with, so you may want to cut those for things more specific to your build.
Whirlwind attack is expensive in terms of feats, but pretty awesome with a reach weapon, lunge, and high trip CMB. And hopefully you'll have a source of enlarge person as well. Enlarge person will help your CMB (size bonus plus strength bonus), and reach.
You can trip everyone within a 30 foot radius, basically, as part of your enlarged lunge whirlwind attack. Then you get your free greater trip attack of opportunity on each of them until you run out of combat reflexes. With this build dex is obviously important.
Another thing to consider is Enforcer, with the Blade of Mercy trait. That allows you to do non-lethal damage with your fauchard, and when you do your non-lethal damage you can get a free chance to shake them for as many rounds as you do damage. Furthermore, with your extremely high crit chance, this will very often be frightening them as well. So you'll trip them then do a non-lethal attack of opportunity to possibly frighten them, then because they're frightened, they'll be forced to stand up and move away from you (not withdraw because they're prone), which is 2 attacks of opportunity. After they've stood up, the second attack of opportunity can be a trip, of course, giving you a possible third attack of opportunity and keeping them in range of your attacks.
If you were going higher level, Critical Versatility (level 11 fighter, human only) is nice for a high crit threat build. Gives you more choices for inflicting situationally useful status effects than picking only one feat.
OP when you are enlarged your natural reach is multiplied.
Reach weapons threaten at double your natural reach.
Medium with reach
5 foot dead zone 10 threaten
Large 10 ft dead zone 15-20 threat range.
Also that feat to trip on a successful melee swing is s%%*. You're way more likely to trip, so swing with a trip and use an AoO to slap em when they fall. This applies to full attacks, charges, and regular attacks.
Note that lunge's extending of reach ends with your own turn, so it doesn't give more reach for attacks of opportunity between turns.
I'm well aware of this, but thank you for pointing it out anyways. My character won't have awesome AC due to no shield, and his HP won't be too hot due to low CON, but I plan to use a lot of tactics that keep me away so that enemies will have to trigger my AoO's (assuming they don't use ranged, reach, or are large size). Readied actions to attack someone attacking me will be used to 5ft step away so they miss, and give me another attempt to trip since I would figure my AoO failed when they moved to get in.
Also that feat to trip on a successful melee swing is s@%*. You're way more likely to trip, so swing with a trip and use an AoO to slap em when they fall. This applies to full attacks, charges, and regular attacks.
What feat are you talking about? That awful Power Attack pre-req one that is an attack action? If so, yeah, that this is super butts.
The biggest advantage that this build makes for everyone in the party is that the target is prone and suffers a -4 penalty to their AC. Doesn't hurt that it protects me from even being attacked, and that Greater Trip gives an AoO for anyone that threatens the d00d.
I honestly don't like the flavor of being enlarged, but if a party member wants to put it on my character, I will most likely not be opposed to it.
@Anachrony, I think the feat investment to whirlwind isn't worth it, and I will most likely never use any of the feats that are the pre-reqs. I never have used whirlwind, and I doubt I ever will. Also, Crit feats need Crit Focus, and that makes me sad.
Your build said "improved critical", not "critical focus". You'll need the latter, not the former. If your stopping at 9 it's moot because you won't be high enough to get them anyway. But if you were to go to higher levels, crit effects would be the main reason to go with Fauchard. Why go to so much trouble to make people prone and then not invest two feats to also apply another status effect for free with your awesome crit weapon?
Whirlwinds not worth it, but investing an equal number of feats in a +2 attack/damage is worth it? Whirlwind attack isn't worth it for damage in place of a full attack, but the balance tilts when using it to deliver combat maneuvers that you can only do once anyway. A trip build is about controlling the battlefield, and with whirlwind attack plus high reach you can control an entire room full of targets. One combat maneuver against each of them, each at your maximum BAB.
You can make them all prone, shaken, and get more chances to apply whatever effect you get from your crit focus. That's excellent control for a fighter. Kind of a waste to consign yourself to only being able to do all that to one person per round. You get combat expertise as a Lore Warden, so you're talking 3 feats to be able to trip/AoO/crit/intimidate everyone in 30 feet instead of one person, and your build has some feats to spare.
Upon further look, thank you for pointing out that versatile doesn't need any feats for prereqs.
I don't plan on investing on intimidate, and my cha is terrible, so I won't touch the enforcer. That trait my friend might enjoy a lot, so if it's pfs legal, I'm sure he'll take it.
Weapon focus adds to hitting and cmb, so yes, it's extremely worth it, and weapon specialization does add up each time your attack hits, or in other situations where you need that extra damage even for dr issues. Specialization could most likely wait, and I should perhaps keep fury's fall early on.
Opinions on furys fall, anyone? 4 AoO's seem like enough?
Keen weapon is being heavily considered, because that's a long wait, and investing in straight critical feats is awful. Critical versatility I just realized why I was right with critical focus. You need to meet the prereqs of the feat you want to get, and they all need critical focus.
IMO your trip cmb will be so good that a +1 keen weapon>+2 weapon
I pretty much think I've settled on the keen, and I feel I can deal with polearm mastery due to already using the readied action combat tactics for this guy.
So mithral bp, plus one keen fauchard, cestus, a str compbow, get me a healing wand, duelist gloves, str belt, ring of pro, Nat about amulet, cloak of res, and some basic gear. Any suggestions?
Breastplate? Does mithral make it not medium? I thought a Lore Warden could only wear light armor like a mithral chain shirt?
I've been convinced to taking pole arm matter... for now... and they get medium armor.
Your build is pretty optimized as it is right now, everything else is more of a flavour thing.
Two-Handed Fighter should also be considered. Just deal moar damage, when you knock your enemies to the ground.
I'd also take Keen over Improved Critical.
There is alsoWolf Style, which would be to expensive for you.(Two feats and MAD)
Since you are a Reach build, Elephant Stomp won't be that good.
You could also look at Whirlwind Attack to make a Fighter, that moves in and knocks everyone in his reach to the ground.
Just reading that back swing, and overhead chop gives me ideas because of how useful they can be in synergy with trip and out of trip. Pa master world give a situational bonus, while thf now seems more appealing. Thf is now in the lead, especially in landing a critical
I recommend switching to a Shoanti human and taking the Bred for War trait. +1 to CMB.
The Fury's Fall feat lets you add Dex to your trip attempts.
Armor spikes are always a good backup weapon for a reach fighter.
Monkey Style is great for trip fighters; no penalties for being prone, so even if you roll that 1 on a trip attempt you are not screwed.
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As far as the equipment.
First 2 prestige - buy a wand of infernal healing or cure light wounds.
Second 2 prestige - buy a masterwork composite +3 strength rating longbow. There are times when you just need to shoot at things.
After that, it depends on your play style how you use your prestige. Some save until they can have a free raise dead, remove 2 negative levels, and body recovery before they spend anymore.
Some will spend it on potions, scrolls, and wands for a couple of levels before they start saving.
A large weapon is so much more expensive to make out of special materials like adamantine that I don't really recommend it until fairly high level.
I would instead recommend some silver arrows by level 2-3, cold iron arrows by level 3-4, and adamantine arrows by level 4-5. Personally I get them all by level 2 so I have them.
Then if there is a big ole golem I don't want to go toe-to-toe with it anyway. Everyone can run around trying to evade it, while I use the arrows on it.
Then by about level 3 I also have backup light melee weapons for silver (mithral) and cold iron. By level 5 I think I should have a backup light melee weapon that is adamantine.
Things to consider. You can't know who will be sitting at the table with you in PFS. So you can't know if all the caster classes will be covered, let alone what spells they will have prepared or known.
Things I think every one should get unless they intend to have the spell themselves are:
- Especially at low levels, keep on hand a half dozen various vials of alchemical X. There have been a couple of times that there was something we almost couldn't hit/hurt. But 5-6 people throwing touch attack vials of acid quickly took it down. Expensive, so not all the time. But when you need it, you really need it.
- Oil of magic weapon by level 2
- Oil of daylight by level 3
- Start getting the potions or scrolls (that someone else can probably cast on you) to remove conditions. So lesser restoration, remove blindness/deafness, remove disease, neutralize poison, remove curse, restoration, etc... If someone has the spell and will cast it on you, great! Save it for the next time. But it really sucks to try and finish the last half of a mission blind.
- Get potions or scrolls for some key buffs that you might really need. Fly/levitate and dimension door/teleport are some key ones to have.
- Lesser restoration becomes so common, that I would consider buying a wand of that even though it is kinda expensive.
- Wands of buff spells. Seriously consider a few level 1 buff spell wands. Even if you can't use them, there will usually be at least 1 caster in a group. Not too long ago there was a fighter at a table that had used a large number of his prestige points to buy wands. I think he had things like lead blades, bless weapon, long strider, endure elements, protection from evil, shield of faith, etc... Depending upon who was at the table, he would hand them one of his wands and say "Anytime it looks like a serious fight, please use this on me."
- Also, I really think almost everyone should get at least enough ranks in UMD to get a +0 modifier. Then you have a chance of activating a wand yourself in desperate need.
When ever I use up something on list, I buy 2 more of that item. It was obviously useful, since I used it up so let's get more.
I recommend switching to a Shoanti human and taking the Bred for War trait. +1 to CMB.
What's this Shoanti human? It's implied if you use that bred for war trait that you're an shoanti
Shoanti is a nationality for humans like Chelaxian or Taldoran. The trait is from the Inner Sea World Guide and can be found in the Shoanti section.
Any other helpful advice as for traits, items etc that help my cmb?
No other traits, but acquire a Dusty Rose Ioun Stone and put it in a Wayfinder. The resonant power is a +2 insight bonus to CMB and CMD.
Aren't materials added in after size modification?
A medium mithril BP should be 4200gp
A large Mithril BP is 4400gp.
Same to weapons.
It was mentioned before that a slayer or ranger trip build could be better. Could anyone show me how it would be built?
Question for anyone reading this...
I was just informed that while not on my turn, I can't use my cestus and my polearm to threaten. Is this true, and why?
Also, I was told that armor spikes isn't a valid solution to this, because of some faq that exists, and I can't find this. Is this true, and can anyone cite the source?
I might ask rules forum, but people who are hopefully familiar to trip builds will look at this thread and be familiar enough to enlighten me.
I like combat patrol for trip builds... sometimes you just really wanna lock down a massive area, and... combat patrol helps nicely. An options, situationally dependentant. But man, when it pays off it is truly amazing to see.
Most people aren't expecting to provoke from 20-30ft away. Lol...
You've got the essentials down nicely. Dex is more important than str for a tripping reach build, since it boosts your # of AoOs and CMB both.
As for your latest questions...
Slayer/Guide ranger can be decent trippers because they can select targets to get sizeable bonuses to hit against them, which of course helps their CMB to trip.
Lore Wardens though make absolutely incredible trippers. The bonus to CMB keeps rolling in as you level, and makes it hard to not stay relevant against CR appropriate enemies.
You do not want a Polearm Master for a trip build. Not unless your focus is on the damage side, instead of the control side. It just doesn't hold up.
Lore Warden keeps Weapon Training. Polearm Master trades it for other stuff. Gloves of Dueling (15k gp price) increases your Weapon Traning by +2. That is pretty huge for the price. An option the polearm dude doesn't have.
Lore Warden's CMB/CMD bonus is double the Polearm dude's bonus on readied/aoos. And... is arguably a better bonus to begin with. As your whole build hinges on getting your trips to actually trip the target.
By Level 15, you'll be looking at a difference in CMB on trips of about +10. It... just isn't comparable.
You'll want some way to get large+ at some point thought, most assuredly. It doesn't need to be an every day kind of thing, just... a way, when you need it. A couple potions even, at some point. You will come across big stuff from time to time, and you'll wanna even the score and them drop em on their face.
Lastly... You threaten to your natural reach with armor spikes. Holding a 2hander doesn't affect that, at all.
I am debating between Two-Handed Fighter, and Lore Warden. There is a lot of damage to be had with thf, and you can't trip everything in the game as well. Overwhelming CMB for guaranteed trip sounds really great, and having a downed enemy for not only myself, but others to easily take out seems like a great strategy, but just erasing things with damage, and even ignoring their possible DR because of such high numbers on a swing is great as well.
I might be going all the way back to Lore Warden, because just controlling he fight sounds real good, and my weapon will get the damage boost when getting a critical. If I don't take out the enemy, then my allies will. Also, more skill points to put into knowledge skills seems extremely helpful for the game as well.
I figure a +3 bonus for a total of 4 AoO's is plenty, and I am aware of how it adds up with the initial AoO to trip an incoming enemy, Greater trip extra attack, and when they get up is 3, but the damage and normal attack seems too important to pass up.
Yes you can threaten people with a fist weapon while wielding a polearm. No FAQ says you can't.
Yes you can threaten people with a fist weapon while wielding a polearm. No FAQ says you can't.
Assuming you can either wield the polearm one-handed or have 3 fists. If you need to switch whats in your hand then you're only wielding one or the other at a time.
My reach trip fighter is Lore Warden with a dip in Flowing Monk (which is pretty awesome for tripping; Flowing Monk redirection with a reach weapon combined with Wolf Style is powerful synergy). One advantage of a dip in monk is that they are effective at attacking and threatening the gaps that their reach weapon doesn't, even with their hands full.