Experiences with 3PP Base Classes.


Product Discussion


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So, with the other awesome thread collecting a comprehensive list of the 3PP Base classes I'm blown away with how MANY of the bloody things there are.

So what have y'all played on that list? What was your take on them in actual game-play rather than just reviewing the build.

My group has played serveral, in my personal experience:

Time Warden: Fun and odd. Different but definitely not over-powered. I would suggest you have complete buy-in from your GM with this one. Time-travel can be awesome, but only if the GM really digs the inclusion of that to the game. Note, the Time Warden is specifically noted as NOT being an Arcane or Divine caster so if you're using 3.5 prestige classes you will have trouble qualifying for most.

Riven Mage: Fun and reletively simple. Be good at a lot, excellent at pretty much nothing. Fun to play a skillmonkey with some magic slinging ability.

Godling (In various flavors): Very fun, very variable. But honestly, a number of the Divine Power paths and the Scion Talents are so much better than the other choices you have to really force yourself to not chose the same options over and over again. And you would have to be a bit of a masochist to play a non-human Godling and pass up the Favored Class options available to humans versus other race choices.

Spark: Well...it's fun. Like Time Warden you have spell like style abilities but you aren't an arcane caster and that can make for some oddness. Now, it REALLY changes the flavor of the game. When the Spark looks at every single magic item as simply fuel for their fire treasure because little more than numbers to be moved around. If a DM really digs creating items with history and detailed descriptions they can get a little bummed when the Spark goes "Who cares who made it or what it looks like? Or even what it does? It's getting remade into something specifically suited for our group at this moment in time!" But if you're a player who has some sadistic bastard of a GM that insists on rolling for random treasure at all times, well then it could be a godsend.

I'd love to hear about your experiences.


I would be insanely biased because most of the 3rd party classes I have played I have either written, helped write, or produced on some level (we do a lot of playtesting on our stuff in home games). I’ll skip over the LRGG stuff and talk on the stuff I’ve played/been in games with that were 3pp base classes.

A boss in one of our home games was a Shadow Assassin who the GM... well he broke the class (no more than you could break a fighter though). I don’t recall the exact way but the GM used a whole heck of a lot of shurikens.

I’ve run a psionics game or two and it’s been a heck of a lot of fun (psion, psychic warrior, and I THINK it was a wilder?). The game didn’t last long but it was pretty on par with everything else. It felt like you either needed to go with magic or psionics because they fill the same niche.

I know it’s not 3rd party but I was in a game where the GM pitted us against the playtest summoner and we almost had a wipe. The summoner was 3 levels above us. Eidolon one rounded the fighter before moving onto the rogue and paladin (I think it was a paladin? Memory isn’t so good). Would have been a total wipe but my little goblin rogue hauled butt on a riding boar and escaped.

I’ve run numbers and scenarios on a few other 3pp classes (sample builds, automated combat etc). We did a lot of playtesting of other eastern content for Dragon Tiger Ox.


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Tons of practical XP with many of them, will get back to it (and reviewing) once rl stops kicking my behind.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

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I'll preface this by saying that I'm in the middle of writing a book of 3pp classes for Dreamscarred Press, a gig I got into partially because of some work I did playtesting with them, so I may have a bit of bias in favor of 3pp materials. However, I also used to be dead-set against bringing 3pp stuff into my games, so.....

That being said-

I've played or played around with pretty much all of the Dreamscarred Press psionic and Path of War classes, and love them. The Path of War classes actually helped get my gaming group interested in using combat maneuvers and funky weapons like the double chicken saber again, which made me (and them) very happy. I think they're all pretty great and very well balanced.

A lot of the stuff by Super/Rogue Genius games has seen use at our table, and the Death Knight and Mosaic Mage are particular favorites. I have a... varied history with their Dragonrider class, centered largely around the fact that a low level one can cause issues in campaigns not built to deal with low level flight combined with AOEs and other pieces of the package. Leave it that he's mechanically well-balanced but probably shouldn't be brought into campaigns where you expect things like daunting cliff-faces, structurally unsound bridges, or groups of squishies in forest clearings to actually serve as obstacles.

Alluria Games Cerulean Seas setting is actually what got me to transition my group over from 4e, and all of the classes they've put out are well-balanced, thematic, and super fun to play.

Abandoned Arts has done a lot of archetypes that have seen use at our table, and I've never found a reason to take issue with anything they've put out.

Rite Publishing is another company whose archetypes are regularly played, referenced, or suggested by our group.

LIttle Red Goblin Games has some fun stuff, though I've found that their balance is a little swingy at times (though typically in the cause of ensuring that something is as awesome/hilarious/fantastic/cool as they promised it would be). That's not to say that they're OP (sometimes they're the opposite) but they really like to sell the schtick of the class they're putting out there and I think sometimes they'll go with a cool mechanic that's a little weak or a little strong because it's the right thing for the idea rather than because it's perfectly balanced to similar materials.

Louis Porter Jr.'s NeoExodus materials and associated classes like the Machinesmith are amazing. Just great times all around.

The Charlatan from Rossi Publishing's world of Terah is one of my all time favorite classes, and the Spark which appears in the same materials was a favorite of one of my players as well.


The Conduit from LIC ... (can I count even if it's not out yet...because I did at least playtested it).

And the Tough is really a lot of fun for pulp games.

I will also 2nd the Mosaic Mage. I really enjoyed it in a spelljammer game.


I'll post more past experience later, but the Swordmaster from Dreadfox games is the one I'm playing currently. It's probably the most fun I've had with a martial based character for a long time, even at low levels. It feels pretty potent and like I have options in combat and fills a niche I'd been looking for filling for quite awhile.

Balance-wise I feel it is pretty good, capable of high damage and fairly high defenses but a lower will save and hit points make it a bit more challenging. Your damage is heavily...HEAVILY reliant on essentially building up combos though and if you mess up part of it, you'll find yourself suffering quickly. When you have the right swort arts though, the class can be extremely effective and fun to play. I highly recommend it.


I really love hearing these 1st hand accounts of using 3PP classes. Thanks all for sharing these insights. Hope to hear more!


I'm interested to see what the Swordmaster is able to get up to at higher levels.


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I plan on throwing NPCs at my Kingmaker players using various third-party classes. I'll be sure to let you know how it goes.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

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I got so curious about the Swordmaster I had to go throw it in my cart so I can check it out later :)

I was busting into my downloads to see if there were any classes that deserved mention that I missed and I wanted to touch on the following:

The Direlock by Forest Guardian Press is really cool, kind of creepy and super unique. He's got tentacles, yo.

I mentioned Little Red Goblin Games, but I didn't mention the incredibly awesome class they did called the Runesmith. He's a little more advanced as classes go and I wouldn't recommend him for inexperienced players, but dude, he is just amazing. I built a dwarven Runesmith tank whose favorite trick was carving inverted healing runes all over his gear and wading right into the thick of things and goodness was it awesome.

I just picked up a copy of the Edgewalker from Interjection Games and I'm psyched to play it. It's like a monk/rogue/shadowdancer with two separate ki pools representing light and darkness. All I can say is "Dude...."

Kobold Press has a class in their Player's Guide to The Crossroads called the Shadowsworn that is a kind of shadow magic rogue-y assassin type and it's extremely cool and very solid (there's a bunch of amazing archetypes in that .pdf as well, definitely worth looking at).


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Ziegander wrote:
I'm interested to see what the Swordmaster is able to get up to at higher levels.

Well I'll try keep this brief, but the idea behind the class is as the name implies the elegant, lightly armored swordmaster trope. It's a class that uses dexterity and intelligence almost entirely (the class uses sword arts which use dex to hit and for damage).

Sword arts are broken down into three types: openers, sequitors, and finishers. You need to use an opener before a sequitor and a sequitor before a finisher. Failing means you usually have to start over...usually, anyway, there are some ways around it.

Due to this the class is extremely customizable. You start with three standard sword arts (an opener, a sequitor, and a finisher). Each level you get one more and can swap out a single old one.

Openers are usually fairly simple affairs. Some allow you to feint opponents, some allow quick movement, some allow you to debuff creatures. Lot of variety here, but most aren't more than a move action (with some exceptions). Very few openers do hit point damage.

Sequitors are a bit more diverse and can be utility or attacks. Damage-wise they are usually a bit on the weak-side for attacks or only a single hit. Most of these are standard actions but they can vary depending on what they do.

Finishers are your big damage or debuffs or both. Some can stun, some do up to triple damage hits, a fair number allow full attacks with some bonuses. The fact you need to work up to them makes Swordmaster very spike-y in the damage department. Most are full round actions, meaning you need two rounds to usually pull them off. Again, some exceptions to this.

The other cool part of the swordmaster is the partnered blade. You get a masterwork weapon to start that eventually becomes magical and awakens sentience. Plus you can use it to sunder other magic items and steal their enchantments (up to a limit of a +10 weapon not counting the sentient stuff it gets). Eventually any weapon you hold gains sentience which is kinda strange, but infinitely cool ("I sense a hidden darkness in this blade").

Like I mentioned, one of my favourite classes and with the gaming we've done I can say it fits in well power-wise compared to most other classes. I'm allowing it in all the campaigns I'm running as well.


I just wanted to ask if anyone tried the avenger paladin alternate from little reds tome of twisted yet? Ive been wanting to roll one up since we worked on it, so if anyone's got any cool anecdotes i'd love to hear them.


I use 3rd-party material extensively in my games, 3rd-party classes especially so. And in all of my experience I can say it has been worth it, even with the occasional ups and downs. Here are a few specific things I can think of:

Tinkers, Artificers, and Wonderbread Makers: In my extensive collection of 3rd-party classes I have started to notice a trend and that is engineering, tech-focused, build all the magic items classes are really popular among 3rd-party publishers; they work well in almost any game, but I have found two common issues that sprig up with these handymen classes.

1.) In a game where you want magic items to be rare or hard to find, these classes will just ruin your games. I had a game once set in the apocalyptic world of Metro 2033 where a player was running an artificer (the one found in the Tome of Secrets) which we played his class features off as weird science, not magic. Anyway the character was great but we quickly unraveled the sense of terror I had set up for the game with his ability to make really good gear. Going against an irradiated-dire bear in tight corridors? no problem, the artificer made all our bullets out of weird metal that bursts into flame, we got this. Oh no! Our home station is under siege by spider-bugs! No prob, the artificer can create some magic traps for us to set. Now this won't be problem in every game, but in the resource limited world of Metro it ruined the sense of limited supplies I was going for by making the stuff they did have super-good.

2.) The people playing these classes really need to learn how crafting works. This is actually happening to me right now- every odd Saturday I run a Necropunk-sorta game where one of my players is an artisan from Drop Dead Studios. Which is fine with me as I want someone to craft not-quite-magical, psionic powered necrotech, however the player doesn't know how crafting works and they refuse to actually learn. Every five second they are not involved with combat he tells me he is going to start making vials of cure light, and I then respond in a cave they have neither the equipment (he wasn't gotten a portable lab even though I have recommended it about five times) nor the time unless the party wants to wait hours for him to maybe make one (they don't). He says okay and then asks to do it again shortly after that.

I recommend writing up however your crafting rules work in your setting and handing these to your players who insist on playing the craftsmen classes.

Aside from this one gripe on artificer classes though I love every 3rd-party class I have ever purchased and ran, and think that having so many choices is what helps keep my gaming experiences fresh.


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OmNomNid wrote:
Every five second they are not involved with combat he tells me he is going to start making vials of cure light, and I then respond in a cave they have neither the equipment (he wasn't gotten a portable lab even though I have recommended it about five times) nor the time unless the party wants to wait hours for him to maybe make one (they don't). He says okay and then asks to do it again shortly after that.

He sounds like the most annoying little git... I don't know that I could stop myself from just kicking him out of the game. Okay, actually it would be a conversation off to the side after the session was over where I said something like, "next week either show up with the knowledge of crafting, or show up with a new character." Sheesh!


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Ziegander wrote:
OmNomNid wrote:
Every five second they are not involved with combat he tells me he is going to start making vials of cure light, and I then respond in a cave they have neither the equipment (he wasn't gotten a portable lab even though I have recommended it about five times) nor the time unless the party wants to wait hours for him to maybe make one (they don't). He says okay and then asks to do it again shortly after that.
He sounds like the most annoying little git... I don't know that I could stop myself from just kicking him out of the game. Okay, actually it would be a conversation off to the side after the session was over where I said something like, "next week either show up with the knowledge of crafting, or show up with a new character." Sheesh!

The thought has crossed my mind but I am a fairly patient person. I am actually hoping he'll drop the current character and play a full blown healer, as that seems to be the role he is trying to fill right now. But let's not derail.

The Conduit from LIC does looks good, as does everything else in that book. Definitely take a look at it.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

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Holy crap, I bought that Swordmaster class Aleron was talking about and it is AWESOME! I'm whipping one up now. The .pdf is very nice to look at, with few errors or typos I've noticed. I like that he gets all swords and the quarterstaff. Despite the fact that a wandering warrior with a simple staff strikes some definite harmonies, I'm building one with a nodachi, because you know, nodachi.


Yeah, the swordmaster is a great example of how you can give a martial class more combat options without needing to go super natural or a uses/day or uses/combat mechanic. I really hope the design catches on more widely, because it does a lot of things well.


Marksmen are Full-BAB Ranged combat experts that can provide a lot of interesting defensive and utility options to a party with their powers.

Aegis are the splasher par-excellence for anything non-caster. Few classes will fit themselves so perfectly in support of a different set of power and abilities, which is rather fitting given their main mechanics.

The old AE 'warlock' can make for fairly sick blasting damagewise, but otherwise that's about it: it is an outright incomplete class with dead levels and holes all over its rules and even ability descriptions. Oh also it allows for infinite summons and the such since that wasn't all that well thought out.


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Great thread! :-)

Endzeitgeist wrote:
Tons of practical XP with many of them, will get back to it (and reviewing) once rl stops kicking my behind.

I hope you are up and running soon EZG!


One little gem from the old days was the Halfling Rock-skipping Champion. Granted, it was a prestige class rather than a base class, but as it linked into fighter and did so very early, it took over your entire character definition quite well. It required organization, a lot of organization, but was a great deal of fun if you had four sets of color-coded attack and damage dice to speed everything up.


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I've not played many, despite my urging my players to do so. I've had to make them NPCs mostly. I did play a Soulknife from Dreamscarred Press a few years back that I really, really loved.


I ran a game at a con with nothing but Rogue Genius games classes, and it went great. The death knight played well, as did the hellion. The shadow assassin also did well, minus a bad roll or three. The only issue is the time thief seemed much weaker in comparison.
I have had a few dragon riders in my home games, and yes you have to take the mobility into account..but they also have to be played smart. I have had a player use his dragon as a combat machine, and it failed badly. They are a little better than your typical animal companion, but not enough for them to solo combat,and well played enemies still see it as a DRAGON and target it with their best stuff.
Right now personally I am playing a talented fighter, and put together a talented monk. They are both cool, but the monk is the clear winner..its a build that can do all these wonderful things..


Outside of my own experiences my fellow players in our games have played a few 3PP classes as well and so far I've seen:

Dragon Rider: Use more as an enhancment to spell combat. Worked out very nicely.

Echo: Our games tend very strongly towards casters. Usually 3 or 4 casters in the party. This gives the Echo a lot to chose from when it comes to making the best of his actions.

Mosaic Mages: Seen a number of these. Very popular, especially as we allow a large number of spell resources, giving them a LOT of bang for the buck when it comes to filling out their spell lists. Using the 3.5 Tome of Magic gives Black Mosaic's some very nice choices out of that Shadow Mage class. It has been mentioned though that the class lacks that 20th level payoff so common to Pathfinder classes.

Occultist: The current version of Pact Magic seems far more sane and reasonable in comparision to the Secrets of Pact Magic and Villains of Pact Magic versions. Still fun, still enjoyable, but nothing to make a DM lay about with the Ban Hammer.

Tactician: Wow. Just, wow. This class can really make a party hum without being a massive source of damage. Amazing what some well chosen buffs and battlefield movements can do when someone smart is at the helm. Lots of fun.

Witch Hunter: Fun, flavorful class but can be frustrating as the list of "witches" is so specific that you can often feel like an underpowred fighter. Definitely talk with the DM in advance to make sure the campaign is going to provide a target rich environment.

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