andreww |
Nowadays with the existence of Paragon Surge giving everyone spontaneous access to all spells it is pretty much down to this:
Wizards:
Gain access to spells a level earlier
Have an option allowing them to escape grapples before being able to afford a ring of freedom of movement
Have an option allowing them to always be able to act when surprised
Sorcerer:
Spontaneous casting a wide range if spells on demand so without the action cost of paragon surge
Access to a variety of immunities from different bloodlines
A potential +3 DC over the Wizard in one school of magic via the Arcane bloodline
Are better at Planar Binding at level 12 until level 15 when wizards gain moment of prescience
They don't potentially lose their main class abilities if their GM is a dick about spellbooks
Nowadays taking into account everything out there that is pretty much it. Mostly it is about whether you prefer early access to spells or sppontaneous access to a range of immediate problem solving tools.
Sorcerers do have some decent archetypes while most wizard ones are crap.
Rubber Ducky guy |
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Wizards can't wink.
While we usually leave 90% of our brains un utilized, wizards need much more space than that. Often 500% of our brain power is required to master the most basic arcane marvels.
Fortunately wizards have learned exceed petty things like limits, but some mental re routing of the mind is required.
Because of this Wizards are no longer able to wink.
And they can't wiggle their ears either.
/True Story
EvilPaladin |
Well, ignoring Paragon Surge+Expanded Arcana, Sorcerers can cast more spells each day, and have options for casting off of all three mental ability stats, each of them being perfectly viable.
Wizards, on the other hand, can change spells each day, which is really really good during downtime. In addition, they cast off of intelligence always, by default, so they generally [sage's aside] have better skills and more dump stats.
But really, at this point you are playing a full arcane caster. You are playing the same playstyle. Slow start, being squishy with some major potential, and then later on being massive powerhouses in and out-of combat. There isn't too large a difference between the two.
Jorshamo |
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LazarX wrote:Once a sorcerer has defined herself, she's stuck as she is.Paragon Surge says otherwise.
Also UC retraining.
Paragon surge + Extra Arcana is a silly combo that I ban from my games (You pick a feat with paragon surge, the spell stay the same if you pick it again at a later time). Additionally, it means you need to be a half elf, meaning you miss out on to oh-so-touted Human Favored Class Bonus, unless you ALSO spend a feat on Racial Heritage (Half-Elf).
As for retraining, you need 2 days per spell level, an amount of gold equal to 10 * current level * number of days spent training, AND a sorcerer at least 1 level higher than you. A 10th level Sorc who wants to swap out a third level spell has to spend 6 days and 600 GP to do so, assuming the GM lets you find a trainer. You need GM permission every step of the way.
andreww |
True but even if we ignore paragon surge pages of spell knowledge address the issue of lower level spells known, higher level ones are too expensive. The Mnemonic Vestment gives you reusable scroll use for downtime stuff like Planar Binding and Permanency. The False Priest archetype gets access to all cleric spells of 1 level below their maximum through reusable scrolls and wands.
That is all stuff available to all races. When you add in the human FCB the options available to sorcerers are huge.
andreww |
Paragon surge + Extra Arcana is a silly combo that I ban from my games (You pick a feat with paragon surge, the spell stay the same if you pick it again at a later time). Additionally, it means you need to be a half elf, meaning you miss out on to oh-so-touted Human Favored Class Bonus, unless you ALSO spend a feat on Racial Heritage (Half-Elf).
As for retraining, you need 2 days per spell level, an amount of gold equal to 10 * current level * number of days spent training, AND a sorcerer at least 1 level higher than you. A 10th level Sorc who wants to swap out a third level spell has to spend 6 days and 600 GP to do so, assuming the GM lets you find a trainer. You need GM permission every step of the way.
Half elves can take human favoured class bonuses so just be a half elf and have the best of both worlds. Also Expanded Arcana can be taken multiple times so limiting it to the same choice makes no sense.
GreyWolfLord |
GreyWolfLord wrote:Any half competent wizard can do that with a spell.Sorcerers can grow wings and a tail if we have the right bloodline.
Yes, but ours are more permanent (and natural!)...
Plus...we look cooler with a wings and a tail than the nerdy wizards.
Everyone loves us...we have that natural charm
Unlike those nerdy copycat wizards...
John Woodford |
Wizards can grow glorious beards.
Sorcerers can not. The magic in their blood that gives them their powere damages the hair follicles over time.After many years most Sorcerer go completely bald.
/True Story.
One feels sorry for Seoni in later years, although I suppose her scalp tattoos will be glorious.
Anzyr |
True but even if we ignore paragon surge pages of spell knowledge address the issue of lower level spells known, higher level ones are too expensive. The Mnemonic Vestment gives you reusable scroll use for downtime stuff like Planar Binding and Permanency. The False Priest archetype gets access to all cleric spells of 1 level below their maximum through reusable scrolls and wands.
That is all stuff available to all races. When you add in the human FCB the options available to sorcerers are huge.
Seconding this. False Priest/Razmiran Priest archetype for Sorcerer's is just an incredible amount of versatility. In particular, the 9th level ability with spells that cost money is an incredibly straight forward way to get access to lot of power on the cheap. Scrolls of Animate Dead for example that you can continually reuse, or scrolls of Raise Dead, or if you are a serious baller Miracle. Start duplicating spells with a cost (Permanency/Simulacrum hint, hint) and go to town! No Blood Money need apply! (You will still need Blood Money if you want to Wish up your inherent stats, though but hey can't have everything).
Anzyr |
That only works for divine Spells and both Simulacrum and Permanency are arcane.
I am indeed incorrect, though not for that reason. I forgot that it required you to burn a higher spell slot instead of the same level one and therefore Miracle duplicating Simulacrum or Permanency will not work. There is good news though this trick still works I just remembered incorrectly how. (You may not be able to fail a Knowledge check on a 1 but you sure as hell can jumble the knowledge.)
Permanency and Simulacrum are divine spells, thanks to Ancient Lorekeeper Oracles, so you buy the scrolls and burn a 6th/8th level slot as appropriate. See nothing to it, when you take 10.
Black Feather |
Scribe Scroll for free means every utility spell is available after it's known (you'll have made a scroll of it and have at least one on you). Given enough time and research there is no arcane support you cannot do.
Therefore, you only have to worry about spell loadout for the day. This changes depending on whether you're going to sea, mountains, underground, etc but always includes a balance of buff and combat spells. As a specialist you only lag one spell / day behind a sorcerer but get access sooner.
Sorcerer you usually need more game knowledge with -- pick a play style and pick spells that will support it. Even if you're a blaster you still have to really plan stuff out to be effective. Once you're all kitted out, though, you play faster than an equivalent wizard, generally.
Sorcerer has better archetypes though.
______
In PFS, not crafting hampers wizards a good bit. That Paragon Surge trick is going to be disallowed by almost anyone I can think of even if it is RAW.
Mark Hoover |
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Wizards are better at having a lot of spells
Sorcerers are better at always being able to cast, no matter what until their power runs out for the day.
Wizards are better at starting with a familiar/bonded object
Sorcerers are better at starting with cool SLA's
Wizards are better at having scribe scroll
Sorcerers are better at having more weapon proficencies
Oh, and also Wizards are better at pointy hats; sorcerers are better at robes.
LazarX |
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Wizards better slaves. Take away spellbooks. Send to mines.
They're lousy slaves, they're weak physically, don't get much work done, and are smart enough to organize rebellions behind your back.
Lathiira |
Rubber Ducky guy wrote:One feels sorry for Seoni in later years, although I suppose her scalp tattoos will be glorious.Wizards can grow glorious beards.
Sorcerers can not. The magic in their blood that gives them their powere damages the hair follicles over time.After many years most Sorcerer go completely bald.
/True Story.
I suspect she'll develop a spell to prevent that hair loss if she likes. Whether she learns disguise self or alter self or something else, if she wants that glorious mane of hair, she'll find a way to keep it. She still has plenty of flesh left to cover in tattoos :)
Lathiira |
And to answer the OP: it comes down to bloodlines vs. school powers. Diviner wizards are the kings of going first. But they don't end up with the suite of abilities of a sage without a lot of feats...enough that they more or less negate their own bonus feat progression in terms of numbers of feats. Why? Because we have the Eldritch Heritage feats, that let the wizard steal quite a few of a given sorcerer's tricks. Not all, but some.
Worldbuilder |
A wizard will probably take a PRC, certainly after level 8 there is little reason to stay in the class, and depending on school it may not be worth staying in until 8. Sorcerers have much more incentive to stay in their class.
A wizard can make all the knowledge checks.
A sorcerer can rock all the social things.
The real question is, why not play an Arcanist! Best of all worlds, bloodline, school and more!
Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
Rerednaw |
Also to OP, in what context are you asking? Are you weighing pros and cons for a specific campaign/build?
Both sorcerers and wizards have feats or builds available that allow them to mimic each other's abilities to an extent. Wizards can spontaneously cast, Sorcerers can memorize.
For me the biggest difference is that wizards access to higher level spells one level earlier.
Silent Saturn |
Also to OP, in what context are you asking? Are you weighing pros and cons for a specific campaign/build?
Both sorcerers and wizards have feats or builds available that allow them to mimic each other's abilities to an extent. Wizards can spontaneously cast, Sorcerers can memorize.
For me the biggest difference is that wizards access to higher level spells one level earlier.
Honestly, I've just never really been able to make my peace with the fact that there are two core classes that A) have very little utility besides casting spells, and B) use the same spell list. It's bothered me ever since 3.5 and it continues to do so even after PF helped differentiate them.
Also I saw two other threads in as many days of the form "what can Class X do that Class Y can't?" and they both seemed to generate some interesting insight, so I decided to continue the theme with a pairing I had always wondered about.
So far, I'm enjoying the discussion.
Paladin of Baha-who? |
Wizards get more bonus feats, and have a wider selection, as well as some wizard-only feats called Discoveries that give them things like being able to use a wand with their own caster level, feats and Int score, or gain Immortality.
Wizards who aren't universalists actually get roughly equal numbers of spells versus sorcerers (after 3rd level, it alternates which has more per day), and can use pearls of power to get the equivalent of additional spells per day, which sorcerers can't.
thaX |
Oh, and also Wizards are better at pointy hats; sorcerers are better at robes.
Wait.. That thing with two bands of material over the shoulder attached to the panty and flaps at the waist is considered a robe?
Need a cantrip just to keep her orbs covered.
Ughbash |
sgriobhadair wrote:Wizards get more skills (because they put their ability scores into Int instead of Char)Sage Sorcerer begs to differ.
True but sadly sage sorcerors do not get all Knowledge skills as class skill.
Though taking one level of loremaster helps here. It also delays your 9th and later bonus spells so you get them when you can cast spells one level higer (which I consider a good thing). With the robe of arcane heritage dippling lore master is not a VERY viable option for sage sorceror.
Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
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Here's the spell power ala 'power points' comparison between sorc, wizard and sorceror. I'm assuming the same casting stat at every level, ending in a 34 at 20th.
It doesn't end well for wizards...the amount of spell slots every sorceror gets are generally more then enough to compensate for being a level behind.
Laid out starkly like this in terms of raw power, it's easy to see why sorcs SHOULD be a level behind a wizard...they just have so much more then can do over the course of a day.
Spell Power
CLev 001 002 003 004 005 006 007 008 009 010 011 012 013 014 015 016 017 018 019 020
Sorc 004 005 006 015 018 032 037 058 065 092 101 130 145 179 192 237 252 314 331 361
Wizd 002 003 007 010 017 022 031 040 052 064 079 090 112 125 146 167 191 226 242 271
Spec 003 004 010 013 023 028 041 050 067 079 100 111 140 153 182 203 236 271 287 316
SinM 004 005 013 016 029 034 051 060 082 094 121 132 168 181 218 242 281 316 332 361
The Wizard has more spell levels/day then a Sorc at level 3…and that's it. They end up with 25% less spell levels/day then a sorcerer. Sheer number of spell slots means sorcs should be trying to blow spell slots frequently just to use them up...Quicken and swift spells are a sorc's friends.
The Specialist fares somewhat better. They are ahead at levels 3, 5, 7 and 9…but then the sheer amount of spells and bonus spells castable by sorcs is more then their +1/level can catch up to, and they fall behind, finishing about halfway between sorcs and wizards.
A Thassilonian Sin Magic Mage would finish with EXACTLY the same number of spell/day as a sorcerer, but would be ahead or tied for almost all levels. Probably a wee bit overdone, even lacking two or three schools.
==Aelryinth
Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Link #2.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nn33?Evocation-optimization#39
Link#3
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nn33?Evocation-optimization#48
Please favorite the above and refer to these three posts if you see the question on 'how much casting power do wizards vs sorcs have?' comes up again. It frequently does on these boards.
==Aelryinth
Dr Grecko |
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Copied 1:
Here's the spell power ala 'power points' comparison between sorc, wizard and sorceror. I'm assuming the same casting stat at every level, ending in a 34 at 20th.
It doesn't end well for wizards...the amount of spell slots every sorceror gets are generally more then enough to compensate for being a level behind.
Laid out starkly like this in terms of raw power, it's easy to see why sorcs SHOULD be a level behind a wizard...they just have so much more then can do over the course of a day.Spell Power
CLev 001 002 003 004 005 006 007 008 009 010 011 012 013 014 015 016 017 018 019 020
Sorc 004 005 006 015 018 032 037 058 065 092 101 130 145 179 192 237 252 314 331 361
Wizd 002 003 007 010 017 022 031 040 052 064 079 090 112 125 146 167 191 226 242 271
Spec 003 004 010 013 023 028 041 050 067 079 100 111 140 153 182 203 236 271 287 316
SinM 004 005 013 016 029 034 051 060 082 094 121 132 168 181 218 242 281 316 332 361The Wizard has more spell levels/day then a Sorc at level 3…and that's it. They end up with 25% less spell levels/day then a sorcerer. Sheer number of spell slots means sorcs should be trying to blow spell slots frequently just to use them up...Quicken and swift spells are a sorc's friends.
The Specialist fares somewhat better. They are ahead at levels 3, 5, 7 and 9…but then the sheer amount of spells and bonus spells castable by sorcs is more then their +1/level can catch up to, and they fall behind, finishing about halfway between sorcs and wizards.
A Thassilonian Sin Magic Mage would finish with EXACTLY the same number of spell/day as a sorcerer, but would be ahead or tied for almost all levels. Probably a wee bit overdone, even lacking two or three schools.
==Aelryinth
At some point.. spells per day becomes overkill. If I truly needed 15 spells per hour for 24 hours straight at level 20, something went seriously wrong.
Even at level 11 where sorcs finally catch up to a spec wizards spells per day advantage, were talking 10 spells per encounter for 10 straight encounters. Plain overkill if you ask me.
The REAL power comes from the wizard being 1 spell level ahead of the sorc on nearly all odd levels. The wizard is playing with powers the sorc cannot comprehend on levels 3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17.
At 5th level, having to cast 4-5 resist energy spells (lv2), wastes ALL of the sorcs power, while the wizard calmly sits back and casts 1 resist energy (Communal) (lv3). And then uses his other level 3 spell and ALL of his level 2 spells beating the encounter.
I've made my opinion clear on your other threads too before. Just thought I'd make it here as well.
Again, don't get me wrong.. Sorcs are powerful on paper, but, IMO Wizards are more powerful in practice. That being said. You can't go wrong with either one.
Boojumbunn |
Each class (sorcerer and wizard) is more powerfull depending on which contrived situation you put them into. Because of their ability to swap out spells, wizards tend to be more powerfull than sorcerers in a wider set of roles (I.e. construction one day, infiltration another day, all by the same wizard) but sorcerers tend to be a bit more powerfull in a single role they were built for (I.e. this sorcerer is great at construction, but that sorcerer is great at stealth.)
These differences can be mitigated through clever purchases of magic items.
Boojum
Marthkus |
Copied 1:
Here's the spell power ala 'power points' comparison between sorc, wizard and sorceror. I'm assuming the same casting stat at every level, ending in a 34 at 20th.
It doesn't end well for wizards...the amount of spell slots every sorceror gets are generally more then enough to compensate for being a level behind.
Laid out starkly like this in terms of raw power, it's easy to see why sorcs SHOULD be a level behind a wizard...they just have so much more then can do over the course of a day.Spell Power
CLev 001 002 003 004 005 006 007 008 009 010 011 012 013 014 015 016 017 018 019 020
Sorc 004 005 006 015 018 032 037 058 065 092 101 130 145 179 192 237 252 314 331 361
Wizd 002 003 007 010 017 022 031 040 052 064 079 090 112 125 146 167 191 226 242 271
Spec 003 004 010 013 023 028 041 050 067 079 100 111 140 153 182 203 236 271 287 316
SinM 004 005 013 016 029 034 051 060 082 094 121 132 168 181 218 242 281 316 332 361The Wizard has more spell levels/day then a Sorc at level 3…and that's it. They end up with 25% less spell levels/day then a sorcerer. Sheer number of spell slots means sorcs should be trying to blow spell slots frequently just to use them up...Quicken and swift spells are a sorc's friends.
The Specialist fares somewhat better. They are ahead at levels 3, 5, 7 and 9…but then the sheer amount of spells and bonus spells castable by sorcs is more then their +1/level can catch up to, and they fall behind, finishing about halfway between sorcs and wizards.
A Thassilonian Sin Magic Mage would finish with EXACTLY the same number of spell/day as a sorcerer, but would be ahead or tied for almost all levels. Probably a wee bit overdone, even lacking two or three schools.
What a wonderful way to put it. I hear constantly people talking about how low level spells invalidate other abilities and characters, but when comparing casters it seems people only care about the high level slots.