| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I've been trying to create something entirely new for a while just to see if I could. They're meant to exist in the campaign world that I'm working on. I'm actually kind of nervous posting it. Feedback is scary, yeah?
Anyway. Here it is.
The class is the document in the main folder and the sub-folder contains descriptions of class abilities and class options.
The idea of the class was based around the idea of a character who uses common adventuring items such as tanglefoot bags, caltrops, and alchemist's fire. This idea evolved into a class that creates minor magical effects that mimic those items. Some of the effects are a little stronger than standard items to make them useful, and some are weaker than standard items to keep them balanced. The class is meant to be heavy on the personal customization. It also have some minor buffing abilities.
It might read a bit powerfully, but it honestly doesn't seem so. If anything it's a bit on the weak side. So far I've only had one session of real play with it at level 12. In that game there's also a paladin, a summoner, and a fighter. I was being handily outpaced by all of them. I barely contributed really. I buffed up some of the numbers, not by much though, and decided to post it here to see what anyone thought.
If there's any information missing or unclear please let me know. Since I know how it's supposed to work in my head I might have skipped over a mechanics description or something like that.
I am not sure if this class seems underpowered or overpower.
Honestly, if I am going to compare it to an alchemist, it seems a lot less powerful at first. This class essentially trades the alchemist's spells for projections and extra "bombs" (energy). Those projections work on energy, though. I thought this class is a bit underpowered because the projections you have kind of suck at higher levels compared to spells.
Then I read the amplifications, though. Correct me if I am wrong: with the hardened amplification, goop becomes a save or die more or less right? It takes an enemy completely out of the fight and make him more or less helpless. At level 6, you can use this as an ability as a swift action too.
Shielding, swift, and healing all seemed a little underpowered at first, but upgraded and used as a swift action, they also become--perhaps--a tad too powerful for a 6th level character. Though shielding will become less attractive at higher levels as a lot of characters will have magic items or spells to grant them a shield bonus anyways.
Those comments aside, I like a decent bit about this class. In particular, I like the idea of a standard action sorta-shitty attack followed by a swift action special effect of some strength. It seems like that is a character that generally has an interesting combat round with meaningful choices.
On a person taste note: I was hoping for more gadgets and robots and shit. That is subjective though.
Thanks for the post. Let me break it down and reply.
It seems like that is a character that generally has an interesting combat round with meaningful choices.
This is exactly what I was going for and I'm glad it came through.
Correct me if I am wrong: with the hardened amplification, goop becomes a save or die more or less right? It takes an enemy completely out of the fight and make him more or less helpless. At level 6, you can use this as an ability as a swift action too.
This amplification was supposed to be an equivalent to Hold Person though that might be a bit out of the scope of what I was going for with the class. It's also one of the many ideas I had that I just put on paper, so to speak, so I could see how it would fly. It definitely needs some work. I'm thinking it needs to be more like a tanglefoot bag. A strength check to break out. I'm thinking DC 15 + int mod. The int mod will give it a bit of scaling. Plus allies need to be able to break them out. I'm thinking the goop should have a hardness equal to your int mod and HP equal to your level. Just spit balling on it really.
they also become--perhaps--a tad too powerful for a 6th level character
I tried to add level restrictions to most things. Fast Healing II has an 8th level requirement for instance. I tried to find equivalents from other classes and then tack on an additional level or two. Still needs some work overall, but hey, that's what playtesting is for. I will say that the fast healing wasn't impressive from the little bit of playtesting I have done. It's nice, but it doesn't feel like huge amount of healing since it takes so long to build up. Plus it eats up energy pretty quick.
On a person taste note: I was hoping for more gadgets and robots and s%&!. That is subjective though.
Earlier versions of the class had exactly this, but it didn't work out. It created a bunch of minor items that created the effects. It felt like a re-skinned alchemist which caused me to take it in this direction. Instead of a bunch of minor stuff you create a few major ones and then proceed to constantly improve and enhance them. I do have ideas for a bunch of other minor gadgets I might add later if the class still needs that little extra oomph. Gotta see how it stands up as is first though.
standard action sorta-s*#&ty attack
What do you mean by this exactly? Is it too powerful or underpowerd? What makes it s*#&ty is what I asking.
My biggest worry for the class is the energy pool. I tried to keep it small so choices would have to be meaningful, but I fear it may be too small.
A little sci-fi for my tastes, but it looks like it could be fun.
A little sci-fi for my tastes, but it looks like it could be fun.
Yeah. They're a bit high on tech side of things, but again, they're supposed to exist in my campaign world. It's a place that was starting to come out of their iron age and creating new things with both tech and magic. Then a sort of apocalypse sets them back hundreds if not thousands of years. The gadgeteer is a scavenger of lost tech basically.
You could easily change some of the flavor around to make them more of an item wizard. Drop the guns and stick to crossbows. Gadgets become an item focus to cast spells through. Since the class powers are based on standard adventuring items the mechanics can stay the same.
Thanks for the post. Let me break it down and reply.It seems like that is a character that generally has an interesting combat round with meaningful choices.This is exactly what I was going for and I'm glad it came through.
Correct me if I am wrong: with the hardened amplification, goop becomes a save or die more or less right? It takes an enemy completely out of the fight and make him more or less helpless. At level 6, you can use this as an ability as a swift action too.This amplification was supposed to be an equivalent to Hold Person though that might be a bit out of the scope of what I was going for with the class. It's also one of the many ideas I had that I just put on paper, so to speak, so I could see how it would fly. It definitely needs some work. I'm thinking it needs to be more like a tanglefoot bag. A strength check to break out. I'm thinking DC 15 + int mod. The int mod will give it a bit of scaling. Plus allies need to be able to break them out. I'm thinking the goop should have a hardness equal to your int mod and HP equal to your level. Just spit balling on it really.
they also become--perhaps--a tad too powerful for a 6th level characterI tried to add level restrictions to most things. Fast Healing II has an 8th level requirement for instance. I tried to find equivalents from other classes and then tack on an additional level or two. Still needs some work overall, but hey, that's what playtesting is for. I will say that the fast healing wasn't impressive from the little bit of playtesting I have done. It's nice, but it doesn't feel like huge amount of healing since it takes so long to build up. Plus it eats up energy pretty quick.
On a person taste note: I was hoping for more gadgets and robots and s%&!. That is subjective though.Earlier versions of the class had exactly this, but it didn't work out. It created a...
A note on my "shitty" comment. There is no way for this build to attack with its as a full attack and do extra damage. (Weapon damage)+Nd6+int is not really a whole lot of damage in the long run. Rouges and alchemists do their real damage when they full attack, but this class has no access to anything like that. I think that is more than fine if you are going to target these swift action projections to the right amount of power, though. It puts a dent in the enemy and then you get some battlefield controlling done.
On shielding and healing (I meant to say reinforce rather than just healing): I am almost more worried about the energy resistances than the fast healing (which I think is a cool out of combat healing resource more than anything else). It is just really good at shutting down a lot of monsters that rely on energy damage if you are willing to use your swift every round to keep that enemy shut down. Very similar things might be said for the temporary hit points in conjunction with damage reduction and/or fast healing.
A note on my "s~~&ty" comment. There is no way for this build to attack with its as a full attack and do extra damage. (Weapon damage)+Nd6+int is not really a whole lot of damage in the long run. Rouges and alchemists do their real damage when they full attack, but this class has no access to anything like that. I think that is more than fine if you are going to target these swift action projections to the right amount of power, though. It puts a dent in the enemy and then you get some battlefield controlling done.
On shielding and healing (I meant to say reinforce rather than just healing): I am almost more worried about the energy resistances than the fast healing (which I think is a cool out of combat healing resource more than anything else). It is just really good at shutting down a lot of monsters that rely on energy damage if you are willing to use your swift every round to keep that enemy shut down. Very similar things might be said for the temporary hit points in conjunction with damage reduction and/or fast healing.
Earlier builds had them doing the damage and effect on every attack, but I felt that was a bit too much. So I set it to a standard action, upped the damage, and let it be. I'm still not sure if they're doing too little damage or even too much. They do still get all the benefits of the weapon on those shots as well so that's something to keep in mind.
On shielding I get what you're saying. I edited the document and halved both resistances. They're supposed to last a round per level of the gadgeteer and at their previous values it was just too much. As far as the fast healing, damage reduction, and temp hit points go, well, that's a lot of investment. In energy, actions, and amplifications. You'd need to pick all those amplifications during level ups, spend several turns buffing (one target at a time), and spend a considerable amount of energy. I feel like that's balanced, but I could be wrong. I'll have to playtest that kind of build when I get the chance.
Well, there is an alchemical talent that would let an alchemist shoot his bombs with a gun. It is not as good as full attacking, probably.
I think the damage is fine given the additional control that the class has access to.
Added to my list of artificer classes!
Added to my list of artificer classes!
So is that a seal of approval or just letting me know you're archiving it?
I think the damage is fine given the additional control that the class has access to.
Did some playtesting tonight. The damage feels okay as long as I was using the upgraded acid shot (Stinging Acid). I was doing about 50 to 60 percent of the damage that the hasted, smiting, and full attacking paladin was doing. The rest of the shots do fall behind in DPR but they do have other effects going on. Might need a little more oomph. Perhaps add gadgeteer level to damage as well for a little more scaling?
I did notice a big problem tonight. We ran into several monsters that were large size and a couple colossal. The large size creatures weren't too big of a deal. The colossal ones almost totally shut me down offensively. Most the saves of the projections and amplifications are fort saves and big creatures have great fort saves. Or they simply don't fit in the small areas of the projections. The extra goop amplification was all I had really. Don't know if that's okay or not since I could still throw out some buffs and shoot. Everything needs a type of encounter that stalls it though.
I also used the fast healing amplification quite a bit tonight. It feels very underwhelming. It's a decent heal outside of combat, but that just feels a little lame. I'm thinking of maybe letting it grant the temp hit points of the equivalent health boosts. Fast Healing I grants 10 temp hit points and fast healing 3 and Fast Healing II grants 20 temp hit points and fast healing 5 to be specific. The cost of both would need to increase though. Extra cost 2 for Fast Healing I, and extra cost 4 for Fast Healing II. I'm afraid that might be a bit much altogether though.
Added to my list of artificer classes!So is that a seal of approval or just letting me know you're archiving it?
Mostly archiving it at this point. People use the list a fair amount though!
I hope to read through this more later.
Is there a second page to this doc I can't see?
1) Knowledge (engineering) would IMO thematically correct to put on the skill list.
2) Even if you don't have the gadget list complete, you should get the beginnings of one up so we have an idea where you are going.
3) You talk about the Gadgeteer's gun as if we know what that is. I would start this class feature by defining what a "Gun" is, instead of what it can do.
4) Get some sample Projections, Upgrades, and Amplifications up.
Is there a second page to this doc I can't see?
1) Knowledge (engineering) would IMO thematically correct to put on the skill list.
2) Even if you don't have the gadget list complete, you should get the beginnings of one up so we have an idea where you are going.
3) You talk about the Gadgeteer's gun as if we know what that is. I would start this class feature by defining what a "Gun" is, instead of what it can do.
4) Get some sample Projections, Upgrades, and Amplifications up.
Hmm. You don't seem to be be seeing the folder called class features. Inside that folder is all the stuff your asking about. It's got everything inside. 30ish amplifications, 30ish upgrades, 3 gadgets, the 8 projections, class features explained.
It's strange that you don't see it when Excaliburproxy does. I wonder why? I wonder if other people are having the same problem and think I've just listed the bare bones of a class.
Here's a link to the sub-folder. I can't seem to edit the main post.
Oh, and the knowledge (engineering) thing is a good idea as well. Added.
Indeed. There they all are. I'm using an ipad, which has slightly skewed interaction with things.
Updated a few things.
I think the damage is fine given the additional control that the class has access to.Did some playtesting tonight. The damage feels okay as long as I was using the upgraded acid shot (Stinging Acid). I was doing about 50 to 60 percent of the damage that the hasted, smiting, and full attacking paladin was doing. The rest of the shots do fall behind in DPR but they do have other effects going on. Might need a little more oomph. Perhaps add gadgeteer level to damage as well for a little more scaling?
I did notice a big problem tonight. We ran into several monsters that were large size and a couple colossal. The large size creatures weren't too big of a deal. The colossal ones almost totally shut me down offensively. Most the saves of the projections and amplifications are fort saves and big creatures have great fort saves. Or they simply don't fit in the small areas of the projections. The extra goop amplification was all I had really. Don't know if that's okay or not since I could still throw out some buffs and shoot. Everything needs a type of encounter that stalls it though.
I also used the fast healing amplification quite a bit tonight. It feels very underwhelming. It's a decent heal outside of combat, but that just feels a little lame. I'm thinking of maybe letting it grant the temp hit points of the equivalent health boosts. Fast Healing I grants 10 temp hit points and fast healing 3 and Fast Healing II grants 20 temp hit points and fast healing 5 to be specific. The cost of both would need to increase though. Extra cost 2 for Fast Healing I, and extra cost 4 for Fast Healing II. I'm afraid that might be a bit much altogether though.
I think I misunderstood something. I did not realize that the fast healing replaces the temp hit points. I thought both kicked in.
I think I misunderstood something. I did not realize that the fast healing replaces the temp hit points. I thought both kicked in.
It doesn't. You still get the base 5 but not the extra temp hit points from the health boosts. Amplifications work in 4 different ways.
First is they add an extra effect to the base projection such as Blurred Steps for Swift. In these cases you still gain the 5 foot enhancement all the same.
Second is they change the basic effect completely such as the Sticky Carpet amp for Goop. You don't target any creatures with it and so nothing is entangled.
Third is the enhanced effects such as Health Boost for Reinforce. It increases the effect by the number shown. In this case you'd get 5 more temp hit points for a total of 10.
Fourth is a permanent change to the base projection. The only one that works like this currently is Increase Energy for Shielding. Even if the projection is cast for free the bonus from Shielding would be +4. Even if you use Energy Resist the target still gets the +4 bonus to AC.
I do see now that the wording could be made more clear for some of these and I will work on that next. I'm currently working some minor gadgets which can be found here. I'm thinking they could be gained at level 2, 6, 10, 14, and 18.
Honestly I was trying to make enough of them to gain one at every even level, but I'm running out of ideas. They should give minor bonuses that don't really impact combat.
I'm kind of considering doing minor gadgets at levels 2, 4, 6, 8, and 10. And then at levels 12, 14, 16, and 18 doing a major gadget. The major gadgets would be enhanced versions of the minor gadgets that give better bonuses and functions. You would of course need to have the minor gadget to get the major one. This is just me spit balling though. I'll need to see how it all plays out.
Updated a few things. Tried to clear up some language on the amplifications. Changed the action required to cast projections at levels 1 to 5 from a standard action to a move action.
Could really use some feedback on a lot of things. On everything from the arcane clockwork pet even down the name of class abilities.
I really like the exoskeleton and the water jet, actually. It is pretty neat.
I really like the exoskeleton and the water jet, actually. It is pretty neat.
I like the exoskeleton as well. One of my better ideas. Is there any of them that you don't like or think are worse, or better, than the others? I listed the thermals but I haven't thought of an activated ability yet. What about the level progression for receiving the minor gadgets?
Gadgeteer's Gun seems to just assume they have a gun...do they get one for free?
I also wanted clarification on Gadgeteer's Gun.
Gadgeteer's Gun seems to just assume they have a gun...do they get one for free?
This is one of the things I keep forgetting to add. Thanks for the reminder. They should start with a gun in a similar manner to the gunslinger. I'll add it in soon.
Updated and added a few things. Proofread a little as well. Please let me know if you spot any grammar errors or any unclear or poor wording.
Really like this, what a nice surprise! Well done! I'm planning a campaign in a home brew somewhat steam punk-ish setting and have been thinking of/looking for a tech class like this that could be about balanced to PF T3 classes (bard, magus, inquisitor etc). Seems I may just have found the perfect candidate.
A few notes and questions:
1 Save DC/SR - The more nifty and fun projection and gun effects are subject to saves (and SR), but it seems the class don't have options which may allow for any substantial DC (or SR penetration) increase similar to metamagic, meaning it appears the class would suffer significantly when fighting high CR opponents. If I'm correct, I think the class needs an ability to boost projection/gun DCs on the fly at the cost of more energy (similar to heighten spell). Otherwise, I'm afraid the gadgeteer will have to resort to "the old boring but reliable damage" in the battles that really counts. Which would take away much of its charm, IMO. And BTW, why not simply make all effects (su) rather than (sp), circumventing SR and, more importantly, allowing the abilities to stand out more as non-spells and primarily tech related (albeit supernatural)? What are your thoughts on this?
2 Damage vs. Control - I wouldn't mind seeing more options for trading damage potential for better/more reliable control effects, allowing a build to really take advantage of the class' flexibility and offer fun tactical play. And tons of other classes are very good at dealing out the pain while very few allow for viable builds focusing on control. How about some alternatives to the level dependent gun damage bonuses, for example? Firing improved projections with your gun?
3 Utility - Like where you're heading with the minor gadgets. A healthy dose of "fixer" abilities seems perfect for the class both in terms of flavor and niche. I wouldn't mind a few party-wide utilities as well. What do you say?
1 Save DC/SR
Being able to pump the DCs is something I've thought about but haven't really done anything about yet. Not really sure how to go about it just yet. They do scale with level so they've got that going for them. Which is nice. Some of them don't have a save and are just touch attacks so keep that in mind.
The spell resistance thing was just a power balance check more than anything else. I was, and am, afraid that no SR will tip the balance of the class to the overpowered side of things. They might be perfectly fine without a SR check though. I'd like to discuss it at length but finding anyone to do so is hard to come by.
The empowered shots don't have SR, by the way, if the gun, or crossbow, is loaded.
2 Damage vs. Control
I think this has some potential actually. And it might solve some of your issues with save DCs. Perhaps trading in damage dice from empowered shots to add to the save DCs of projections? That's not a terrible idea actually. Needs some balancing and probably a limit cap. Let me think on that.
3 Utility
From the play testing I've done so far, utility is high already. I've always had multiple choices and never had a dead turn. There have been a couple enemies that were show stoppers offensively, but then I just started buffing. Party-wide utilities might step on the toes of other classes. Wizards and sorcerers bring this kind of stuff in spades anyway. Or at the very least haste. Gotta be careful with power creep.
PF T3 classes
What are these? Do the forums have the classes in tiers? Could you point me to a post on the subject?
Renamed two of the gadgets. Power Glove is now Gadgeteer's Gauntlet and Arcane Clockwork Pet is now Gadgetron. Trying to think of a better name for the shoulder mount.
Added a new general upgrade: Siphon.
Added a new minor gadget and edited some of the others. Still trying to decide how I want them to play out.
I have a new primary gadget in the works called the Gadgeteer's Gaze. I'll post it tomorrow along with some upgrades.
1 Save DC/SRBeing able to pump the DCs is something I've thought about but haven't really done anything about yet. Not really sure how to go about it just yet. They do scale with level so they've got that going for them. Which is nice. Some of them don't have a save and are just touch attacks so keep that in mind.
In general, I think pumping DCs should allow for great benefits, but always at great cost. Being able to shine and step up to the challenge when it really counts is of course in general worth much more than being consistently great but only in less demanding or dire situations (compare wizard/fighter).
The spell resistance thing was just a power balance check more than anything else. I was, and am, afraid that no SR will tip the balance of the class to the overpowered side of things. They might be perfectly fine without a SR check though. I'd like to discuss it at length but finding anyone to do so is hard to come by.
Well, I will agree with you if the gadgeteer is a class intended to primarily focus on combat functions other than direct effects (as in having enemy creature targets, not indirect as in setting up walls, buffs or similar). If, on the other hand, the class (or a general build) is to be viable as a more pure direct controller, its related features/attacks need to be significantly more reliable than similar attacks are for the typical existing classes, since they often have plenty of other options or ways to boost penetration power.
A few examples and numbers:
1 An archer ranger's effectiveness depends to a large extent on its ability to deal damage with a bow. At level 10, the typical ranger usually has at least a 70% basic chance of succeeding at that job when targeting a typical CR 10 creature.
2 A 10th level wizard has virtually a 100% chance of success when using indirect control spells like teleportations, pits and walls (though these spells' combat effectiveness may of course vary greatly depending on how wisely they are used), while the same wizard's cloudkill has approximately a 50% chance of dealing full damage and a 100% chance of dealing any damage to typical CR 10 opponents. A potentially very powerful level 5 direct control spell like dominate person would, on the other hand, only have approximately a 50% chance of having any effect at all, or less than a 28% chance of having any effect when targeting a typical CR 10 opponent with SR (disregarding any metamagic or other boosts).
3 A projection made by a level 10 gadgeteer with dex 16 would have approximately a 23% chance of affecting a typical CR 10 enemy with SR, or less than a 43% chance of affecting an enemy without SR.
Now if we compare the value of a successfully cast dominate person with a successful projection, I think you'd agree dominate person is far more powerful than anything in the gadgeteer's arsenal so far. If we compare the chances of success, dominate person is at least 16% more likely to have an effect. And a typical 10th level wizard has tons of other effective combat tools besides direct effects, while the gadgeteer has rather mediocre damage?
Although the above comparisons disregard the much more limited supply a level 10 wizard has of 5th level spells and several other potentially important factors, I still believe this highlights why I think a gadgeteer that disregards SR would not be OP. (It's also worth noting I think several of the official classes' similar features fail to take net probability of success into account, resulting in presumably unintentionally large power differences between for example different types of specialist wizards and some ridiculously sub-par base abilities such as stunning fist.)
The empowered shots don't have SR, by the way, if the gun, or crossbow, is loaded.
I think I momentarily confused the two attack types, sorry.
2 Damage vs. ControlI think this has some potential actually. And it might solve some of your issues with save DCs. Perhaps trading in damage dice from empowered shots to add to the save DCs of projections? That's not a terrible idea actually. Needs some balancing and probably a limit cap. Let me think on that.
Something like that was what I had in mind. Perhaps also options that allow the gadgeteer to deliver more projection-type effects rather than damage with empowered shots?
3 UtilityFrom the play testing I've done so far, utility is high already. I've always had multiple choices and never had a dead turn. There have been a couple enemies that were show stoppers offensively, but then I just started buffing. Party-wide utilities might step on the toes of other classes. Wizards and sorcerers bring this kind of stuff in spades anyway. Or at the very least haste. Gotta be careful with power creep.
Oh, I wasn't clear with what I meant with "utility", sorry. I'm referring to primarily out-of-combat nifty stuff that helps with adventuring and problem-solving in general, such as many of those lovely James Bond-ish minor gadget ideas you listed. I think there's room for virtually anything from spying tools and trap/magic/poison detectors to "flying carpets" kinda stuff. What do you think?
PF T3 classesWhat are these? Do the forums have the classes in tiers? Could you point me to a post on the subject?
The Tier System For Classes is primarily a tool to help DMs/groups decrease the risk of unwanted party imbalance problems. It has been very thoroughly debated on various forums for years and is widely accepted as a rough measure of a class' capacity to solve typical in-game problems. The explanatory first posts and the related Why each class is in its tier are very good reads offering lots of insight, even though you may have been lucky and won't recognize the problems the system tries to describe and tackle. It was originally made for 3.5 but is very much applicable to PF, approximately like this (for some classes varying due to certain archetypes/general options making the class significantly more or less capable):
T1: Druid, Cleric, Oracle, Witch, Wizard
T2: Sorcerer, Summoner
T3: Alchemist, Bard, Inquisitor, Magus
T4: Barbarian, Cavalier, Gunslinger, Paladin, Ranger
T5: Fighter, Monk, Rogue
T6: Commoner
It's also worth mentioning that not all people agree with the usefulness of the tier system, and others perhaps read too much into it and tend to overlook or downplay other major factors that may affect party balance. I personally think it's a good baseline tool for getting more balanced parties (and less DM headache) and a great tool for tuning the relative mechanical "shine and spotlight hogging"-potential of a tweaked or home brew class.
Whew. Big post. Let's get down to it.
In general, I think pumping DCs should allow for great benefits, but always at great cost. Being able to shine and step up to the challenge when it really counts is of course in general worth much more than being consistently great but only in less demanding or dire situations (compare wizard/fighter).
I think I know what I want to do about pumping DCs and I'll have something for it soon.
Well, I will agree with you if the gadgeteer is a class intended to primarily focus on combat functions other than direct effects (as in having enemy creature targets, not indirect as in setting up walls, buffs or similar).
The gadgeteer is both indirect and direct. Energy Mines, Smoke, Slick, and the Sticky Carpet amp are all indirect and help shape the battlefield. But it also has several direct options as well. Empowered shots, Goop, Flashbang, and the Drench amp all hit target creatures. The gadgeteer has lots of options in any situation. Even if all you do is buff that can mean a lot to a battle.
3 A projection made by a level 10 gadgeteer with dex 16 would have approximately a 23% chance of affecting a typical CR 10 enemy with SR, or less than a 43% chance of affecting an enemy without SR.
I'm not sure where these numbers are coming from. The 43% chance is especially throwing me off. In my play testing I don't think I've actually missed with an ability yet (I've been lucky and haven't rolled a 1 on an attack so far) and I have a 18 dex at level 12. I have had a few enemies make a save but that's pretty standard. You do realize that all the targeted projections are ranged touch attacks, right?
There are only 3 projections that call for a ranged touch attack. Goop, Flashbang, and Slick with the Drench amp. These are, by the way, the only three things that spell resistance applies to. Or at least meant to. I've gone back and reworded a few things to make that more clear. Actually, spell resistance doesn't even apply to Goop if you're using the Sticky Carpet amp. I did go through everything after this and define which projections and amps were targeted effects.Spell Resistance isn't even that big of a deal really. How many enemies even have it? How often do they actually show up in a game? It might vary from group to group, but it's been years since I've seen one pop up in one of our games. However, your worry might be extending from the idea that it looked like everything was subject to SR.
On the flip side of that, since so little is actually affected by SR, then why have it all? It's just a balance thing really. Sometimes you have to have enemies that pose a different kind of challenge for a class.
Perhaps also options that allow the gadgeteer to deliver more projection-type effects rather than damage with empowered shots?
Empowered shots are the primary source of damage for the gadgeteer plus they do offer a few effects. It would probably be too OP to allow two control effects per turn as well.
I think you might be missing some of the ideas behind the gadgeteer as well. The gadgeteer is based on the idea of adventuring items. All of the offensive projections are based on an adventuring item. Goop is based on tanglefoot bags, smoke is based on smokesticks, energy mines are based on caltrops, and slick is based on oil and the grease spell.The empowered shots are based on alchemist's fire, acid flasks, and the like. I added the other elemental types just for versatility.
Oh, I wasn't clear with what I meant with "utility", sorry. I'm referring to primarily out-of-combat nifty stuff that helps with adventuring and problem-solving in general, such as many of those lovely James Bond-ish minor gadget ideas you listed. I think there's room for virtually anything from spying tools and trap/magic/poison detectors to "flying carpets" kinda stuff. What do you think?
Have to be careful with this and power creep. The minor gadgets should feel Jame Bond-ish as you say, but there has to be limits.
Tier System For Classes
Thanks for the links.
Changed the name of the standard Gadgets to Grand Gadgets.
Added the grand gadget Gadgeteer's Gaze. Still working on upgrades for it.
I think I know what I want to do about pumping DCs and I'll have something for it soon.
Great!
Well, I will agree with you if the gadgeteer is a class intended to primarily focus on combat functions other than direct effects (as in having enemy creature targets, not indirect as in setting up walls, buffs or similar).The gadgeteer is both indirect and direct. Energy Mines, Smoke, Slick, and the Sticky Carpet amp are all indirect and help shape the battlefield. But it also has several direct options as well. Empowered shots, Goop, Flashbang, and the Drench amp all hit target creatures. The gadgeteer has lots of options in any situation.
Ah, yes, poor wording on my part. I was referring to whether direct effects would/could be a focus for the class or a potential build of the class, not necessarily as opposed to indirect effects specifically, but rather as opposed to doing more of anything and everything else the gadgeteer could potentially be focusing on in combat. Anyhow, I think I've overvalued the importance of the direct effect stuff, seeing it as a more crucial part of the class than it actually currently is.
Even if all you do is buff that can mean a lot to a battle.
Oh, I certainly don't mean to say that direct effects are more effective. If anything, the opposite is most often true IME (often because of the very same rules components we're talking about: DC and SR).
3 A projection made by a level 10 gadgeteer with dex 16 would have approximately a 23% chance of affecting a typical CR 10 enemy with SR, or less than a 43% chance of affecting an enemy without SR.I'm not sure where these numbers are coming from. The 43% chance is especially throwing me off. In my play testing I don't think I've actually missed with an ability yet (I've been lucky and haven't rolled a 1 on an attack so far) and I have a 18 dex at level 12. I have had a few enemies make a save but that's pretty standard. You do realize that all the targeted projections are ranged touch attacks, right?
My calculations (which I should've shown, lazy bad upho) were based on an assumption that the gadgeteer would prioritize Int in this case (to increase DCs), and I used the same Int score of 24 as the hypothetical wizard in my examples. An "average" CR 10 enemy has a touch AC somewhere around 14, meaning the level 10 dex 16 gadgeteer would have an 85% hit chance (7 bab + 3 dex vs. 14 AC) and the targeted enemy a 50% chance of making the save (+11 is the typical save for a CR 10, and the DC would be 22 (10 + 5 level + 7 Int)). And 0.85 * 0.5 = 42.5% chance of success. (In reality though, that chance would actually be lesser more often than greater, since CR 10 enemies with fast progressing Fort and Ref saves (typically +13) seem to be more common than those with slow (+9) progressions.)
There are only 3 projections that call for a ranged touch attack. Goop, Flashbang, and Slick with the Drench amp. These are, by the way, the only three things that spell resistance applies to. Or at least meant to. I've gone back and reworded a few things to make that more clear. Actually, spell resistance doesn't even apply to Goop if you're using the Sticky Carpet amp. I did go through everything after this and define which projections and amps were targeted effects.
Spell Resistance isn't even that big of a deal really. How many enemies even have it? How often do they actually show up in a game? It might vary from group to group, but it's been years since I've seen one pop up in one of our games. However, your worry might be extending from the idea that it looked like everything was subject to SR.On the flip side of that, since so little is actually affected by SR, then why have it all? It's just a balance thing really. Sometimes you have to have enemies that pose a different kind of challenge for a class.
I think you've probably been quite lucky in your games then. SR is quite common and becomes increasingly so the higher up the levels you get (have a look in the bestiary). It's enough of an obstacle to often be noted in for example the wizard handbooks and it's one of the reasons why direct effect focusing magic schools like enchantment are generally regarded as weaker in PF than in 3.5. But anyhow, if the gadgeteer's combat abilities remain mostly unaffected, it's not much of an issue, I agree. Though it may of course still be an idea to allow a DC-boosting mechanic to also boost SR penetration, perhaps using a wording along the lines of "for each (whatever cost), the gadgeteer can make the projection as if having two additional class levels, increasing the projection's ability to penetrate spell resistance and any save DC"?
Ah, yes, poor wording on my part. I was referring to whether direct effects would/could be a focus for the class or a potential build of the class, not necessarily as opposed to indirect effects specifically, but rather as opposed to doing more of anything and everything else the gadgeteer could potentially be focusing on in combat. Anyhow, I think I've overvalued the importance of the direct effect stuff, seeing it as a more crucial part of the class than it actually currently is.
Perhaps what your wanting could be an archetype? Give up some versatility for more focus on something else.
SR is quite common and becomes increasingly so the higher up the levels you get (have a look in the bestiary).
I don't often get the chance to play high level games. Ours usually end around 12 to 15. The game starts to get out of hand after those levels and we just tend to avoid it. Plus we tend to keep our enemies and BBEGs player races. So I guess I am underestimating SR.
My calculations
I get what you're saying now. The math is pretty spot on for ability scores as well. I have both a 24 int and a 18 dex (I have +stat items). However, you are applying the touch attack and a save to everything. Goop is a touch attack, but no save. Energy mines is neither with it's own special attack. Slick is a just a save. Smoke has neither. Only flashbang has both. You also have to take that into account. Some of the amps do add saves though.
Also take into account that some of them last for several rounds. Standing in slick, sticky carpet amp, or stinking smoke amp? That's a save every round.Though it may of course still be an idea to allow a DC-boosting mechanic to also boost SR penetration
That's my plan, but make you decide one or the other. Getting both might be a bit much. I'm thinking something along the line of, "Starting at level 4 you can trade 1d6 of damage from the Gadgeteer's Gun class feature, up to half of the base total, to add +1 per damage die traded in to save DCs or Spell Penetration checks made this round.
Added minor gadgets as a class feature.
Added several minor gadgets. All of the minor gadgets are works in progress. Please tell me if you think any of them are too strong, too weak, poorly worded, or what have you.
Added some upgrades for the major gadget Gadgeteer's Gaze.
Could always use some more feedback on everything. Even if you don't like the class please post and tell me why.
Updated a few things.
Also I've been going back and forth on being able to pump DCs. I'm still not sold on it. Gadgeteer's already have scaling DCs.
Let's say a wizard at level 20 has a 30 int. Not sure if that's too low but certainly doable. That means his 9th level spells have a 29 save DC. 31 if he has the feats to be specialized in a school. His DCs drop with each spell level as well.
At level 20 a gadgeteer with the same stat has DC 30 on his projections. 31 if he has the gadgeteer's gauntlet. There are no drops though. Everything he does has the same DC. Plus he has two feats to work with that the wizard does not. I will grant you that the gadgeteer doesn't have the raw reality shaping power that a wizard does, but the wizard also doesn't cast all his spells as a swift action.
As far as spell pen goes it's not a huge issue. Not everything has a spell pen check. You can take the two spell pen feats if you're really worried or the the two upgrade that do the same thing. They'd stack for a +8 all together if you get them all.
As a disclaimer I'm just doing simple math. I'm certain there are magic items, spells, feats, archetypes, etc. that will change numbers.
Added a new minor gadget.
Interesting. It is a new take on the engineer class idea.
I thought you meant a variant on the Tinker class from World of Warcraft RPG. This is close in the base concept, different in the accommodating system.
I'll study this thoroughly and see whether or not I can adopt it into my game world; it has promise.
I play the actual MMO, but never had the chance to play the pen and paper game. I'm surprised they had classes outside the base nine (I assume it was still nine when the pen and paper came out).
Let me know what you think if you would. Good or bad.
Working on some archetypes. First up is the no gun variant. I'm thinking it trades in the gunsmith class feature for rapid reload as a bonus feat.
It also needs a bit of a bonus to hit to make up for the loss of touch attacks from guns. I'm thinking that when it uses the 'Gadgeteer's Crossbow' to make an empowered shot it could use its int modifier in place of its dex modifier. It would increase the chance to hit a little bit, but it would devalue dex some. Dex would still be important for the ranged touch attacks of projections and initiative.
That might not be the best way to go though. Maybe just add a +1 to hit for empowered shots each time empowered blast is gained? That's probably still not enough. Maybe just make empowered shots a touch attack?
I would just give a gadgeteer a bonus for using an engineers crossbow. Just scale it so they effectively have full attack bonus (which will still put them behind real martial classes which all get additional bonuses above and beyond that).
+1 at 1, and an additional +1 at 5 and every four levels thereafter (to a maximum of +5 at level 17)
I would just give a gadgeteer a bonus for using an engineers crossbow. Just scale it so they effectively have full attack bonus (which will still put them behind real martial classes which all get additional bonuses above and beyond that).
+1 at 1, and an additional +1 at 5 and every four levels thereafter (to a maximum of +5 at level 17)
Well, empowered blast is at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20. So it would be the same effect overall, but 3 levels earlier. The big problem is the loss of the touch attack.
At low levels the gun and crossbow are about equal. You can only fire the gun roughly every other round due to reloading. You can fire the crossbow every round if you have rapid reload. After a few levels you can afford a pepperbox, or that bandolier that reloads your gun as a swift action, and then guns really start to out do crossbows.
That's the big problem. The gap in consistency at higher levels. There has to be a decent way to go about this. The bonus to hit is a band-aid that doesn't make up for the loss of touch attacks. There needs to be a trade in for giving up guns that helps balance it out instead of there being a definitive loss.
Well, you could step up attack and damage at those levels. You could also give the weapon a special rule that doubles the bonuses (or changes the bonuses to 1/2 level) if the Gadgeteer spends two energy points rather than the usual 1 when using an explode-y shot. Maybe check out my crossbow fix thingy, too?
Maybe check out my crossbow fix thingy, too?
Got a link?
I've also been thinking and I believe I have a plan.
1st level: Rapid Reload (Gadgeteer's Crosswbow) - Gain the Rapid Reload feat as a bonus feat. It's effects apply to any crossbow the gadgeteer has changed into a Gadgeteer's Crossbow.
4th level: Precise Shot - Gain precise shot as a bonus feat. You do not have to meet the prerequisites to gain this feat. It's effects only apply to crossbows the gadgeteer has changed into a Gadgeteer's Crossbow.
8th level: Crossbow Mastery: - Gain Crossbow Mastery as a bonus feat. You do not have to meet the prerequisites to gain this feat. It's effects only apply to crossbows the gadgeteer has changed into a Gadgeteer's Crossbow.
12th level: Improved Precise Shot - Gain Improved Precise Shot as a bonus feat. You do not have to meet the prerequisites to gain this feat. It's effects only apply to crossbows the gadgeteer has changed into a Gadgeteer's Crossbow.
16th level: Pinpoint Targeting - Gain Pinpoint Targeting as a bonus feat. You do not have to meet the prerequisites to gain this feat. It's effects only apply to crossbows the gadgeteer has changed into a Gadgeteer's Crossbow. You can apply the effect of this feat and empower a shot as part of the same action.
So I came at it from a different angle than just giving bonuses to hit. What do you think? Too much? Not enough?
Changed Gadgeteer's Gun a little bit. At first level it only adds your int mod in damage to the shot. I changed the scaling at later levels for a more gradual ramp up. It still deals 10d6 at 20. It was honestly a little too powerful early on.
Maybe check out my crossbow fix thingy, too?Got a link?
All linkified for you. You can check a person's profile, and find any threads they have started under "Threads"...
All linkified for you. You can check a person's profile, and find any threads they have started under "Threads"...
If I had thought about it I would have realized that. :P
I'm still trying to get the balance just right on minor gadgets as well as the gunless gadgeteer.
I think some of the minor gadgets are too strong compared to other or have weird bonuses, but it's hard to be objective and think of all situations.
As for the gunless variant I'm still not sure if handing out feats is the way to go. Not sure if it's too good or not good enough.
As for the whole being gunless thing. It really hurts the class overall. The damage output of the class was already low, but now without the consistency of guns it'll be almost nothing. Not having that touch attack at close range hurts. Adding a few pluses to hit is a poor band-aid. It is fixable with feats, but the feat tax is far too high. You wouldn't be able to take any feats other than a fixed list if you wanted to be even the slightest bit effective.
So here's my adjusted list of feats and the ideas behind them.
1st level: Precise Shot. This will offset a lot of things and help boost consistent hits. Will still be behind guns, but the gap will lessen.
4th level: Rapid Reload. This will keep the low levels between guns and crossbows pretty even. At levels 1-3 you'll still only be able to fire every other round, just like if you had a gun, and then at 4th level crossbows will be able to fire every round if you're using a light crossbow. This will give crossbows almost equal footing with guns until a few levels later when guns start to take off when you can have multiple barrels and fire every round. Then guns leave you in the dust yet again.
8th level: Crossbow Mastery. This is a bonus that will let you use heavy crossbows and fire them every round. It's mostly a damage die boost. It also allows you to fire in melee without provoking, an advantage over guns, but being point blank tends to be bad anyway.
12th level: Improved Precise Shot. This helps bring crossbows closer in step with guns again. While guns do have to deal with the same issues, the touch attack almost completely nullifies them. However, a gadgeteer using guns would have to wait until a higher level to select this feat because it has a BAB requirement of 11. The crossbow gadgeteer would ignore that requirement and be right on the heels of guns.
16th level: Pinpoint Targeting. Here's where it all comes together. Allowing this feat to work in conjunction with empowered shots finally makes crossbows equal to guns. Guns still get to ignore natural armor (and maybe a few other AC types, I'm not sure off the top of my head) while crossbows have superior range. Guns would also have the advantage of being more mobile since you can't pinpoint target if you move. However the crossbow gadgeteer has a couple extra feats to give them a bit of a leg up over regular gadgeteers.
Let me know what you all think of this. Is it more powerful than a regular gadgeteer because of the bonus feats, weaker even with them, or a nice work around to guns that is a good balance?
Archetypes with no guns? Now i haven't checked out your gadgets, but here's what other artificer/engineer concepts have done:
* Gadget-Mech companion or minions
* Heavy Armor/Defence variant
* Skill monkey
* Stealth-suit
* Power-gauntlet
I really suggest you check out the Machinesmith from LPJ and Tinker from Interjection Games... if nothing else than for inspiration and rounding out the class concept...
Archetypes with no guns? Now i haven't checked out your gadgets, but here's what other artificer/engineer concepts have done:
* Gadget-Mech companion or minions
* Heavy Armor/Defence variant
* Skill monkey
* Stealth-suit
* Power-gauntletI really suggest you check out the Machinesmith from LPJ and Tinker from Interjection Games... if nothing else than for inspiration and rounding out the class concept...
I've pretty much got the class concept and mechanics down. It's all about fine-tuning now.
As for the Gadget-Mech and Power-Gauntlet I've got those already built into the class. You pick one of them though, from a list of other grand gadgets as well, and go with it. The skill monkey aspect is kind of built in, my gadgeteer doesn't get social skills, and his minor gadgets fill in gaps here and there. Plus he has UMD, but I'm kind of on the fence about that one. It sort of fits thematically but it's such a great skill to have on top of his other abilities.
As for the stealth-suit and heavy armor/defense, I actually have long term plans for archetypes of those, or things like them, but I just haven't gotten to them yet. My main focus has been building an archetype that doesn't use guns because some people get really upset over guns. However I built the class from the ground up using guns so creating a play style that doesn't use them has been challenging.
Ok! Sounds good!!!