Goblin Squad Member
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@Bringslite, first, I had some broken tags in my post that have messed up your reply. Apologies.
Do you mean dropping the "criminal" flag? Or to be more clear, non faction targets can not freely get revenge?
I think flagging Bandits as Criminals when they kill or steal is right. I don't think it's necessary to build a specialized system to support the extortion part of it - you're right, they can do it in /tells just as easily.
I'm not sure what you mean by "non faction targets cannot freely get revenge".
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Bringslite, first, I had some broken tags in my post that have messed up your reply. Apologies.
Do you mean dropping the "criminal" flag? Or to be more clear, non faction targets can not freely get revenge?I think flagging Bandits as Criminals when they kill or steal is right. I don't think it's necessary to build a specialized system to support the extortion part of it - you're right, they can do it in /tells just as easily.
I'm not sure what you mean by "non faction targets cannot freely get revenge".
That is what I meant. There is still a criminal "flag" (in your ideal), that "non faction enemies" can see after or at the moment of a crime. Just wanted to make sure I understood. Thanks for your patience. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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How many times will a Paladin attack a random person to see if he's carrying any juicy loot?
Will crafters issue a S&D against a fellow crafter just to take his materials and make more swords?
Will a merchant leading a caravan use his mules to trample someone returning from a monster camp and take his stuff?
Unique consequences for behavior that is deemed by many players as intrusive and frustrating and not ''content generation''
1. There is no randomness in the banditry that I have endorsed, so your first point is moot.
2. If a Paladin sees an adventure group that he knows are evil, based on their company affiliation, then "Yes" he may decide to SAD them or outright attack them. That would also not be random.
3. Yes, a crafter might issue a SAD or otherwise attack another crafter to loot his materials. There is no reason to believe that eventually one character might not be able to perform a variety of roles. I actually expect it, based on my experience with EvE, where 100 million plus SP characters can do virtually any role with mastery or near mastery.
4. Yes, a merchant might do the same as the crafter above.
There are no limits to the number of roles that you can play, PFO does not have cookie-cutter character classes in the traditional TT RPG sense. It is more like EvE where your character is the end game content and the only limit on what role you can do is the time it takes to train for it.
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I don't think it is a matter of what "role" that you play at any given moment. It is more a matter of how you go about it. If you have "agency" and decide to attack/accost someone, you should not lose reputation. If you do not have "agency" and choose to attack/accost someone, it should be likely that you will lose reputation.
That applies, whether you are playing paladin, bandit or crafter.
Edit: What the described S&D mechanic does is let ALL roles have "agency" for penalty free PVP. Assuming that anyone can train it, which has been one of Bluddwolf's major points for some time.
Is that what will make the game different? A reputation system and S&D one of the multiple ways around that system?
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Goblin Squad Member
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How many times will a Paladin attack a random person to see if he's carrying any juicy loot?
Will crafters issue a S&D against a fellow crafter just to take his materials and make more swords?
Will a merchant leading a caravan use his mules to trample someone returning from a monster camp and take his stuff?
Unique consequences for behavior that is deemed by many players as intrusive and frustrating and not ''content generation''
Exactly.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think it is a matter of what "role" that you play at any given moment. It is more a matter of how you go about it. If you have "agency" and decide to attack/accost someone, you should not lose reputation. If you do not have "agency" and choose to attack/accost someone, it should be likely that you will lose reputation.
That applies, whether you are playing paladin, bandit or crafter.
Edit: What the described S&D mechanic does is let ALL roles have "agency" for penalty free PVP. Assuming that anyone can train it, which has been one of Bluddwolf's major points for some time.
Is that what will make the game different? A reputation system and S&D one of the multiple ways around that system?
This could be explained by comparing to when a politician stands up and says he/she is sponsoring a bill to raise the minimum wage, but knowing that no one in his particular area actually makes the minimum wage. It is simply playing lip service and approving something that is actually going to have no impact.
If there are few ways to lose reputation, then the actions that lose reputation are infrequent but they stand out. Being low in frequency also makes it easier for the GMs to follow up with any additional actions.
I doubt that everyone will be able to train SAD. I think it will likely be tied to faction or alignment or perhaps both.
The trade off for being able to initiate a rep consequence free SAD, is the criminal flag for using it.
The attacker always gets to chose the time and place. The defender always gets to chose the response.
I think in those last two points is where the balance has been struck.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The trade off for being able to initiate a rep consequence free SAD, is the criminal flag for using it.
The attacker always gets to chose the time and place. The defender always gets to chose the response.
I think in those last two points is where the balance has been struck.
I think you've got a very good argument that Bounties balance the scales by placing Bandits "at risk" for a significant period of time after their Banditry. I don't think the Criminal flag itself is going to last long enough to be meaningful unless Bandit Hunters are in the exact right place at the exact right time. But I do think it will be fun marching into Thornkeep to deliver Justice to ne'er-do-wells with Bounties on their heads :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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The trade off for being able to initiate a rep consequence free SAD, is the criminal flag for using it.
The attacker always gets to chose the time and place. The defender always gets to chose the response.
I think in those last two points is where the balance has been struck.
I think you've got a very good argument that Bounties balance the scales by placing Bandits "at risk" for a significant period of time after their Banditry. I don't think the Criminal flag itself is going to last long enough to be meaningful unless Bandit Hunters are in the exact right place at the exact right time. But I do think it will be fun marching into Thornkeep to deliver Justice to ne'er-do-wells with Bounties on their heads :)
In the other thread I believe you brought up the issue that Bounty Hunters have to function with a contract, and that is their gate to perform their role.
Banditry has essentially two gates, one passive and the other active.
The SAD requires a skill to be trained and slotted.
Ambushing for SAD or Attack requires the use of a Blind, to take the traveler out of fast travel.
I also see a balance here as well. I also see the probability of limit being placed on ambushing, with requiring a blind.
Blinds will have bulk encumbrance and so, only so many can be carried at once. I'm of course assuming single use for each blind, although I believe a blind that is unused should be able to be repackaged for use in another location.
So the idea ( not that you expressed it) that a bandit group can SAD and or Ambush everyone they come across would be unlikely if not impossible.
This limitation alone, should make the bandits a bit more selective in their target choice than just randomly attacking anyone.
Banditry = RPK or RPR is a strawman argument as much as another. I really don't see it playing out that way under even the worse of circumstances.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Bluddwolf
Well I will say that you are a slippery devil! It is no longer one of your points of debate that anyone could train and use S&D as a counter?
I see that it is still one of your points that a person must train and slot the skill. I don't buy that will be much different than anyone training and slotting a skill for a certain role, though.
What I am pushing for is a system that is easier to get into the game and test (much less investment in case it fails) that also gives you as many targets as you could wish for. Additionally, it takes away reputation free dominance over the entire population. Which, by the way, would be used by the very worst sort of player. It will make the game consequence free (for themselves) and allow them more freedom for far longer, to do as they like.
You could still S&D with a tell. Some will accept and some will refuse. They will have a choice. If they do refuse, you will have to make a choice. The kind that you have always said you are willing to make.
You can still use "blind" to stop travelers and examine them. See if it is worth your time/risk. Or you can still use it with foreknowledge and intell, against targets you know are loaded.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The trade off for being able to initiate a rep consequence free SAD, is the criminal flag for using it.
Oh, great, so if you rob the crafting mats I've been gathering for the past 2 hours off me, do I get them back when your criminal flag fades in a few minutes? A flag that lasts 10-15 minutes isn't a counterbalance for damn near anything. If they make it last 24 hours+ then we can begin to consider that a cost.
1. There is no randomness in the banditry that I have endorsed, so your first point is moot.
I couldn't care less what you endorse. I care what the system enables players who enjoy being asshats to do. I care how the game feels to the average player as they explore the world. And if it feels like Bandit-fest 2014 the game is probably going to fail.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The trade off for being able to initiate a rep consequence free SAD, is the criminal flag for using it.
Oh, great, so if you rob the crafting mats I've been gathering for the past 2 hours off me, do I get them back when your criminal flag fades in a few minutes? A flag that lasts 10-15 minutes isn't a counterbalance for damn near anything. If they make it last 24 hours+ then we can begin to consider that a cost.
I couldn't care less what you endorse. I care what the system enables players who enjoy being asshats to do. I care how the game feels to the average player as they explore the world. And if it feels like Bandit-fest 2014 the game is probably going to fail.
1. There is no randomness in the banditry that I have endorsed, so your first point is moot.
You Have What You Hold: In contrast to many other
civilizations on Golarion, this freedom draws a moral
distinction between robbery and mere stealing. Taking
something by force is considered acceptable, even begrudgingly
praiseworthy. Burglary, on the other hand, is punishable
under common law. The difference is in allowing a victim the
ability to resist, the opportunity to face his or her robber, and
to plan for repossession if so desired. This allows for a rough
honesty, letting Riverfolk know and face their enemies.
I couldn't care less how long you spent gathering your crafting materials. If they were that valuable to you, you would have hired enough guards to protect your cargo. As the River Freedom implies, "You have what you hold", if you can't protect it from being taken from you, you have no claim to it.
If you want to get it back, you're not limited to the 15 minutes of the Criminal Flag to take your revenge. You can hire a bounty hunter. You can ask your company to feud my company. That is how the system is being set up.
If all your going to do is cry about it, at least we left you with your tears. Otherwise, put a plan in place to repossess your losses, as the River Freedoms suggest.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I couldn't care less how long you spent gathering your crafting materials. If they were that valuable to you, you would have hired enough guards to protect your cargo.
This is so naïve. So if I'm a new player and I'm interested in getting into crafting, I head out from the settlement to collect some tier 1 crafting materials. I spend 2 hours doing that, then get robbed, and they're all gone. I've lost 2 hours. It's not the material value that's necessarily of concern, it's the 2 hours I just wasted.
I don't think I'm going out on a limb in saying that any "guards" I'd like to hire for 2 hours value those 2 hours. Should I hire 1 guard? That's "2 hours" worth of valuable player time I'd need to purchase. Would 1 guard even be meaningful protection? I'd argue absolutely not.So how many man-hours of guard time should I buy to protect my 2 hours?
It doesn't take a math genius to see that this isn't going to work.
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...you would have hired enough guards to protect your cargo.
Where, in any game, will a character have enough money to pay a sufficiently-large group of human players to protect him? It's hard enough, in the real world, to find people willing to deal competently with the "hours of boredom, moments of sheer terror" involved in guard-work; in a game, who wants to spend the time he paid for in pursuits like that?
I've spent the last few weeks at my real work arguing the benefits of considering sunk costs to be just that: sunk, and not worth following on with further expenditure. Bluddwolf, you're dangerously close to succeeding in convincing me to write off the few hundreds of dollars I've spent on PFO as a poor investment, not worth pursuing further.
The game you write about seems bleak beyond all hope of joy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I couldn't care less how long you spent gathering your crafting materials. If they were that valuable to you, you would have hired enough guards to protect your cargo.
This is so naïve. So if I'm a new player and I'm interested in getting into crafting, I head out from the settlement to collect some tier 1 crafting materials. I spend 2 hours doing that, then get robbed, and they're all gone. I've lost 2 hours. It's not the material value that's necessarily of concern, it's the 2 hours I just wasted.
I don't think I'm going out on a limb in saying the any "guards" I'd like to hire for 2 hours value those 2 hours. Should I hire 1 guard? That's "2 hours" worth of valuable player time I'd need to purchase. Would 1 guard even be meaningful protection? I'd argue absolutely not.So how many man-hours of guard time should I buy to protect my 2 hours?
It doesn't take a math genius to see that this isn't going to work.
Probably won't work that way. I am thinking more along the lines of a "Company" that goes gathering/PVEing. There will still be wolves, hanging about the edges. Drawing the best defenders away, etc... Hopefully we will figure out ways to deal with it that are still fun. If not, there is something wrong with the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am thinking more along the lines of a "Company" that goes gathering/PVEing. There will still be wolves, hanging about the edges. Drawing the best defenders away, etc... Hopefully we will figure out ways to deal with it that are still fun.
If not, there is something wrong with the game.
I don't think it's going to work that way.
There are two kinds of harvesting in the game. Individuals can use harvesting tools on resources they detect in the environment - pretty classic "whack a rock with a hammer" style harvesting you may have used in many Theme Park games like World of Warcraft.
The other kind of harvesting requires the characters to construct an "Outpost". This is a persistent structure in the game and they'll come in all kinds and levels of complexity. Outposts are linked to resource "nodes" that produce a steady stream of some kinds of resources needed in bulk - like timber or ore. Getting together the materials needed to build an Outpost, building it, and defending it is the first kind of organized group activities we'll be introducing to the game during Early Enrollment.
That bang-a-rock style of gathering isn't a company activity. "WoW" style gathering, as they put it, is very much a continuous process. Sometimes you just gather as you do other things, sometimes you're specifically gathering, but it probably doesn't support a "company" style outing for everyday gathering.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am thinking more along the lines of a "Company" that goes gathering/PVEing. There will still be wolves, hanging about the edges. Drawing the best defenders away, etc... Hopefully we will figure out ways to deal with it that are still fun.
If not, there is something wrong with the game.I don't think it's going to work that way.
There are two kinds of harvesting in the game. Individuals can use harvesting tools on resources they detect in the environment - pretty classic "whack a rock with a hammer" style harvesting you may have used in many Theme Park games like World of Warcraft.
The other kind of harvesting requires the characters to construct an "Outpost". This is a persistent structure in the game and they'll come in all kinds and levels of complexity. Outposts are linked to resource "nodes" that produce a steady stream of some kinds of resources needed in bulk - like timber or ore. Getting together the materials needed to build an Outpost, building it, and defending it is the first kind of organized group activities we'll be introducing to the game during Early Enrollment.
That bang-a-rock style of gathering isn't a company activity. "WoW" style gathering, as they put it, is very much a continuous process. Sometimes you just gather as you do other things, sometimes you're specifically gathering, but it probably doesn't support a "company" style outing for everyday gathering.
The only thing I can say or point out is: We have very little information. Why would they design a setup in which gathering in "wild" areas is impossible, unprofitable or just NOT FUN AT ALL. I have a hard time believing that condition would go long without some corrective action to change things.
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I think that company-style gathering will actually be encouraged by a number of mechanisms. Gushers/Lodes will be found and *need* more than one character to harvest, so gathering within earshot of others will pay off. Hexes will deplete over time, so settlements and their POIs are likely to have an interest in rotating their gatherers to more productive harvests while tired hexes regenerate. Some materials will not be found in settlement spaces so harvesting companies will make forays into badlands and meteorite hexes.
Will there be solo harvesters, sure. Will they be less guarded, probably. Will they be more prone to being waylaid by small-time bandits, almost certainly. Will they be ignored by large bandits group, I doubt it. A dozen bandits will drop from the main group to kack the harvester and then rejoin.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think that company-style gathering will actually be encouraged by a number of mechanisms. Gushers/Lodes will be found and *need* more than one character to harvest, so gathering within earshot of others will pay off. Hexes will deplete over time, so settlements and their POIs are likely to have an interest in rotating their gatherers to more productive harvests while tired hexes regenerate. Some materials will not be found in settlement spaces so harvesting companies will make forays into badlands and meteorite hexes.
Will there be solo harvesters, sure. Will they be less guarded, probably. Will they be more prone to being waylaid by small-time bandits, almost certainly. Will they be ignored by large bandits group, I doubt it. A dozen bandits will drop from the main group to kack the harvester and then rejoin.
Definitely. We have to train ourselves to play differently if we want what happens in these other games to happen less often.
If my settlement comes to me and says, "BL. We need skymetal!" I am going to say, "Fearless Leader, I can get you some, but I need protection."
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've spent the last few weeks at my real work arguing the benefits of considering sunk costs to be just that: sunk, and not worth following on with further expenditure. Bluddwolf, you're dangerously close to succeeding in convincing me to write off the few hundreds of dollars I've spent on PFO as a poor investment, not worth pursuing further.
The game you write about seems bleak beyond all hope of joy.
You can't take him to heart - he's not a developer and the game he wants may not match PFO as delivered. Better to listen to the devs, read and absorb their vision and explanations of the rules as they come out. It's in Paizo's interest to see a successful game that survives for years and prospers over time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You can't take him to heart - he's not a developer and the game he wants may not match PFO as delivered. Better to listen to the devs, read and absorb their vision and explanations of the rules as they come out. It's in Paizo's interest to see a successful game that survives for years and prospers over time.I've spent the last few weeks at my real work arguing the benefits of considering sunk costs to be just that: sunk, and not worth following on with further expenditure. Bluddwolf, you're dangerously close to succeeding in convincing me to write off the few hundreds of dollars I've spent on PFO as a poor investment, not worth pursuing further.
The game you write about seems bleak beyond all hope of joy.
Naw. Don't trust in any of us and certainly not people that want a perfect example of every other fantasy sandbox that has failed or is failing. Trust that GW is on the ball until they prove that they aren't. There is a lot of talent and brains in that building.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Really... Any of you actually think that an unprotected caravan, filled with valuables is not the kind of target GW expects bandits to attack?
I'll bet you ask directly, what your answer will be...... "You shouldn't do that, you're going to die."
Isn't that exactly the answer that was given by Lee and Stephen. Wasn't it Ryan that said in PFO you will die often, at the hands of other PCs?
But, I'm being the naive one?
In Eve, when my former corporation ran a low sec mining operation we brought three security ships for every one mining barge. We each got paid one cargo container worth (27000 m3) of ore per hour, the miners kept one and the corp got two or even 3 per hour.
Anyone (solo or small gang) would see about 20 ships in the belt and warp the hell back out.
I expect that in PFO, you will see the smart companies mining sky metal this way. Anyone else who doesn't is just being foolish. I personally hope there will be plenty of fools, no actually, I'm expecting it.
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Did someone say that they thought it was a good idea to run a caravan without protection? I can't find it...
Here is what I figure. All subject to very little information and a good deal of experience as a gatherer in a couple of open PVP sandboxes. PfO will have a small map. PfO will not have recall. PfO will be crowded. In PfO if I want to be really good at gathering, I will be sacrificing combat skills for some time. If I gather like I did in UO and DFUW (usually alone), I will die more often in PfO than I did there. Yet in UO and DFUW I really did VERY well despite getting ganked a certain amount of times.
Having said that, there will be fairly large (relative to the map size) "somewhat safe" areas. NPC for sure and settlements (eventually). Competition will be fierce therein, not combat wise, but definitely for materials. Still, depending on how important "common" raw materials remain in the crafting chain, you may get pretty wealthy just from persistent safe zone harvesting. That will be good if you absolutely want to go solo much of the time, but not exciting.
Some sneaky gatherers will do alright alone in wilder areas once they get to know the flow of the game. They will be few. The biggest most regularly successful hauls will be "Company" jobs. Like locusts with a "war" locust analog in the swarm for protection. It will be a "socialist" thing for some settlements and a "shares" thing for some companies.
I think that some people are questioning whether this will be practical or fun or both. I can't blame them, as it is probably different than what they have been used to for 10+ years of MMO play.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The biggest most regularly successful hauls will be "Company" jobs.
I think that some people are questioning whether this will be practical or fun or both. I can't blame them, as it is probably different than what they have been used to for 10+ years of MMO play.
Yeah - you can count me in the category of questioning both whether that is practical, or fun. We only know a little about it but from what we do know, it doesn't *sound* like it's going to lend itself to big, company gathering sessions. "Wow style" pickaxe on the ore vein is certainly miles away from that.
I do also question whether it'd be fun. If I get home from work and have say, an hour, to log in and do something, what can I accomplish in such a world? Obviously this is a game designed with teamwork and settlement play and all that in mind but I doubt they'd design a game where the guy whose play schedule is somewhat random and who logs in for an hour or two here and there can't play or contribute.Really... Any of you actually think that an unprotected caravan, filled with valuables is not the kind of target GW expects bandits to attack?
I'll bet you ask directly, what your answer will be...... "You shouldn't do that, you're going to die."
Isn't that exactly the answer that was given by Lee and Stephen. Wasn't it Ryan that said in PFO you will die often, at the hands of other PCs?
But, I'm being the naive one?
Yes. A "caravan filled with valuables" such as skymetal isn't the scenario I described. I am more concerned with the everyday, smaller scale gathering that I described above. The typical gameplay scenarios your average player will see on a day-to-day basis. The "WoW" style gathering.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Broken_Sextant
Almost anything that you see us write here is speculation. Only the Devs know what is being designed and only they have the "best guess" at how it will play out. Sure we quote their writing a bunch, but remember that most of us read their writings differently.
What can a guy accomplish in a spare hour? Guessing here... Some "safe zone" harvesting for sure. A few quick trips to "wild" areas with some friends at pre established times. Trips there alone if you are sneaky, though I would expect that to end badly sometimes. Some market speculation. Some quick PVE and it is ok to get ganked if you make some progress toward that next achievement. What ever you want. If your time is limited, plan it well. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't see what about the gathering being "WoW" style makes you think it doesn't lend itself to big group gathering. I think that most things in this game will be more efficient/more safe with a big group; that doesn't mean you can't do anything as a solo'er, but if you want us to say that playing solo will be just as profitable as playing as part of a group I don't think anybody's been given that impression by the devs.
As Bringslite says, as a gatherer type character if you only have a random hour to spare on the side you'd probably spend it best either doing "safe gathering" in/near NPC hexes or inside your settlement's best protected lands, or doing other available activities in your protected lands, such as playing the market or PvE content. If your character's entire career is only spent in random hour-or-two spurts without the ability for any planning, you can still do things, but there might be things you cannot do; that's just the nature of the game they've laid out for us.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't see what about the gathering being "WoW" style makes you think it doesn't lend itself to big group gathering. I think that most things in this game will be more efficient/more safe with a big group; that doesn't mean you can't do anything as a solo'er, but if you want us to say that playing solo will be just as profitable as playing as part of a group I don't think anybody's been given that impression by the devs.
Well for starters, in WoW gathering a node disappears after it's looted. So if you bring 2 people, 1 is out of luck. If you bring 10, 9 are out of luck. If those types of nodes are instanced for each player, like in Guild Wars 2, we can begin to have the discussion about mass gathering. If it's not instanced for each player like in WoW, this is a non-starter and group gathering will not really be viable. If they've announced something along the lines of individual, instanced harvesting nodes then I haven't seen it.
As Bringslite says, as a gatherer type character if you only have a random hour to spare on the side you'd probably spend it best either doing "safe gathering" in/near NPC hexes or inside your settlement's best protected lands, or doing other available activities in your protected lands, such as playing the market or PvE content. If your character's entire career is only spent in random hour-or-two spurts without the ability for any planning, you can still do things, but there might be things you cannot do; that's just the nature of the game they've laid out for us.
"Safe gathering" is unlikely to get you anything useful past low-tier crafting mats. They've said that the more valuable stuff will be further away from settlements typically, right? So "Safe gathering" really isn't a solution for the majority of your character's lifespan if that's the case.
I've never made the claim that solo play should ever be as effective as group play. About the strongest I've said is you should be able to progress and contribute without requiring some massive organizational effort. I know everyone is viewing this game as this awesome group-orientated teamworkfest, which it will be in large part, but it has to be fun when you don't have a lot of time and want to small group or even solo sometimes. Maybe someone with an hour can't log in and erect a building or something, but I don't think being able to run out and pick up some mats for their own personal crafting is asking much.|
Goblin Squad Member
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...you would have hired enough guards to protect your cargo.Where, in any game, will a character have enough money to pay a sufficiently-large group of human players to protect him?
I would think that T7V will guard their own harvesting operations and then divvy up the profits amongst those who participated.
The game I'm writing about is under the assumption that companies will work together to achieve a common goal.
The bleak picture for solo play, that has been painted, was done by the Devs themselves.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The harder it is to get rare mats to "bank" and "market", the more valuable they will be. Human ingenuity will make that happen at whatever point makes it profitable (or sufferable for personal use). In most sandboxes (with some kind of safe areas) you can hang there and make enough coin to get anything you like. That may or may not get you rich or be time effective, but it works for a chronic solo operator with less time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Members of NPC Settlements will be able to train and use exotic character abilities linked to maximizing banditry operations.
I apologize profusely for completely misreading this post when I quoted it. Ryan is stating this as an assumption (presumably incorrect), not as a fact
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Goblin Squad Member
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I apologize profusely for completely misreading this post when I quoted it. Ryan is stating this as an assumption (presumably incorrect), not as a factMembers of NPC Settlements will be able to train and use exotic character abilities linked to maximizing banditry operations.
Although I noticed this, I did not mention it, but instead amended my hope that the combination of faction dedication and NPC settlement training may still achieve the same mastery of banditry skills.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Apologize if there was a better thread for this, but wanted to bring up an idea I've been thinking about SAD.
In looking through some of these posts, I've seen the idea of contraband come up in this thread and others.
I kind of really like this idea. I was thinking about what the effects of SAD could be and wanted to make my suggestion.
SAD can be initiated by both parties. At which point, they both have the option to stand down. A game of chicken that lasts for ten seconds. If neither choose to do that, then both can kill each other with no rep loss.
If the SAD goes through unchallenged, the person or party making the SAD takes a rep hit. The one doing the SAD selects either gold or loot. If it's loot, then the SAD has ten seconds to look in the bag and make one selection. Items with the hidden characteristic would not show up. Items with contraband characteristic will trigger two options if selected. One is attack with no rep hit. The other option is to take the item.
To balance out abuse of SAD, I suggest a severe curve in greater cost of rep for repeated uses in short duration. This will allow for a notorious upstart to become infamous. Where a protracted gangster maintains respect and admiration for playing the long game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Quietus,
If SADs cost reputation, even small amounts, they will not be used. Reputation loss is meant to curb undesired but not prohibited activities. The SAD is more desirable than just killing and looting unflagged, it therefor has always been described as either a Rep positive and more recently a Rep neutral activity.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Quietus,
If SADs cost reputation, even small amounts, they will not be used. Reputation loss is meant to curb undesired but not prohibited activities. The SAD is more desirable than just killing and looting unflagged, it therefor has always been described as either a Rep positive and more recently a Rep neutral activity.
SAD is more desirable if this process reduces rep loss than outright killing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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SAD is more desirable if this process reduces rep loss than outright killing.@ Quietus,
If SADs cost reputation, even small amounts, they will not be used. Reputation loss is meant to curb undesired but not prohibited activities. The SAD is more desirable than just killing and looting unflagged, it therefor has always been described as either a Rep positive and more recently a Rep neutral activity.
As if its last design discussion, an accepted SAD does not incur a reputation loss or gain. Even a rejected SAD offer, that results in the issuer killing the rejector, does not incur a reputation loss. The reason being, the rejector had a choice and chose not to accept the offer. The only time reputation is lost, related to a SAD, is if an offer is accepted and then the victim if the SAD is then attacked by anyone during the time frame of the "fleeced" status.
It was then later suggested by a Dev (Stephen), that it might be more simple to just factionalize both merchants, their guards and bandits. As faction rivals, both sides could engage each other without loss of reputation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So what prevents someone from just using SAD against everyone they see?
If the target accepts it, instigator gets loot, no rep movement. If the target rejects it instigator kills the target and gets loot, no rep movement. (More loot in one of the scenarios probably?)
And while yes there might be an 'upset' where the target wins when new people don't know what to expect or just foolish bandits occasionally, are we really going to pretend that the dedicated and disruptive bandits aren't going to pick targets they know they can beat, probably via numbers alone?
Especially given that it sounds like 'hauler' is going to require you to slot stuff that would reduce or remove most of your combat ability. The only way around it is to pre-plan to avoid it by always traveling with enough guards to discourage it or to somehow be deceptive about who and what you are doing. That becomes boring default behaviors in my opinion.
Not saying rep should necessarily be the factor that limits use of SADs, but something should make it more interesting.
It seems like a potential reputation loophole otherwise.
If SAD incurs a rep loss, I won't bother SAD-ing. I'll either use my originally preferred method of surprise attacks (which is generally more effective anyways), just issue a threat from a hidden location via Local chat, or avoid banditry altogether.
Also, "famous" and "infamous" should both mean "high rep". The Infamous bandit is feared and respected, while the Famous knight is envied and admired. Both have reputations that assists them in their work.
On another note, I still really like my "SAD & Guarantee" idea to have an "Advanced SAD" that guarantees the merchant's safety.
And while yes there might be an 'upset' where the target wins when new people don't know what to expect or just foolish bandits occasionally, are we really going to pretend that the dedicated and disruptive bandits aren't going to pick targets they know they can beat, probably via numbers alone?
This is a fair point, but keep in mind the enterprising SAD-free bandit will win no matter what. In a world without effective SAD, bandits will use surprise attacks that are over before they begin. SAD gives the target a chance to react and plan, which is actually quite a large advantage.
Overall, yeah, bandits aren't gonna be fair about this. Of course not. We're bandits. We are going to be as unfair as possible, 'cause this is the only way we get to get our Chaotic rocks off without taking hits. We are going to go after relatively safe targets, we are going to SAD them, and then we are going to get our loot—one way or another.
This system favors the bandit. However, the general order of things favors the merchant—the merchant and his guards are always able to immediately attack the bandits without any sort of penalty, the merchant and his guards are free to move elsewhere, and the merchant makes a much tidier profit when he makes it to the other side—especially since his "enemies" the bandits raise the price of his product with their very presence.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So what prevents someone from just using SAD against everyone they see?
If the target accepts it, instigator gets loot, no rep movement. If the target rejects it instigator kills the target and gets loot, no rep movement. (More loot in one of the scenarios probably?)
And while yes there might be an 'upset' where the target wins when new people don't know what to expect or just foolish bandits occasionally, are we really going to pretend that the dedicated and disruptive bandits aren't going to pick targets they know they can beat, probably via numbers alone?
Especially given that it sounds like 'hauler' is going to require you to slot stuff that would reduce or remove most of your combat ability. The only way around it is to pre-plan to avoid it by always traveling with enough guards to discourage it or to somehow be deceptive about who and what you are doing. That becomes boring default behaviors in my opinion.
Not saying rep should necessarily be the factor that limits use of SADs, but something should make it more interesting.
It seems like a potential reputation loophole otherwise.
First of all, as soon as the SAD is issued, the bandit and all in his/her group are flagged as criminals. That bears with it the Chaotic shift, and obviously the potential of being attacked by everyone (without consequences).
This alone will limit the use of the SAD, from being used frivolously.
Secondly, and this is a hope. The use of a SAD MAY require the use of a Blind. I'm assuming a blind will require an expenditure of materials and time to construct or at least a cost to purchase one. I doubt they will be unlimited use, but perhaps they may be like most other consumables (even a one use item). Blinds will obviously take up inventory space, perhaps even a utility slot. So an individual will be limited in the number of blinds he/she can carry.
Thirdly, SADS have always been described as a trained and slotted skill / feat. So there is an opportunity cost / trade off in having its use.
Fourth, it could very well be a faction based skill / feat or it could be tied to a particular alignment axis (ie. chaotic). I'm not sure if I would prefer this, but I'd certainly accept it without complaint if it were this way.
Finally, there have been several people that have said they would not use SAD, even if it were open to them. This was not just for those that argued against its use on moral grounds, but from those that just don;t mind the rep loss in exchange for higher looting potential of an outright ambush.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The Infamous bandit is feared and respected, while the Famous knight is envied and admired. Both have reputations that assists them in their work.
Reputation doesn't mean well known for this mechanical discussion. Reputation will keep you out of settlements and prevent you from learning skills. You can be well known and have low reputation. The high reputation mechanic carries with it more than just being popular (whether that's good or bad.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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*Note: I am interested in being a bandit to some degree so please do not assume I am campaigning against SADs.
I'm not disagreeing with anything you're stating, I'm just trying to figure out how I feel about it and what the default behaviors will end up being.
So if they can immediately attack with no loss, then the default behavior for anything resembling even or better odds is to fight. If you are horribly outnumbered and probably going to die you should just accept the SAD.
I guess my gripe is that it seems like there's interaction going on, but in most cases there is rarely any, it's only a bit better than insta kill gate camping. The favor is entirely for the bandit, both in possible outcomes (2 of 3 benefit him) and decision to interact.
I don't have a solution but I wish it was somehow more interesting, the SAD shouldn't essentially be resolved long before the participants crossed paths today.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Bludd
Curse delays my last response could have included your extra info.
First: The criminal flag is an interesting point, but I still feel like it won't be too big a limiter. I would imagine you finish your SAD one way or another and then you relocate to do it again, which would just keep your flag running. It would only be a concern if you actually ran into a party patrolling, which is still certainly better than nothing. Of course out in the wilderness it probably means almost nothing as traffic might be low enough that you can just camp as much as you want.
Two: That's interesting, I kind of feel like that might be a decent restriction. Makes you want to wait for a better target if you only get 3 SAD attempts before you have to run home to 'refuel'.
Three: Is a good point but still goes back to my 'are you really gonna take bad odds' point. But it will at least maybe curb the outlier cases. This combined with Two might work really well together.
Four: That will limit it, which is I suppose good, but doesn't solve any interaction issues. But definitely not a bad thing.
Final: Hmmm yea that's just tough luck I guess. Either reputation will work or it won't.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Duffy, a few weeks ago, I proposed that reputation consequences be based on the percentage of ressources asked, no hit rep if you ask only 20% of the resources, for example. I think it would be fair, it doesn't really destroy the gatherer's day.
But the more resources you ask, the more the consequences, for you and your target if she refuses.
The high reputation mechanic carries with it more than just being popular (whether that's good or bad.)
Exactly my point. You can be despised and still have a high Reputation. The smart bandit who gets a reputation for being brutal, but keeping with the River Freedoms or at least sticking to his oaths, can be despised but still afforded the proper respect.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The high reputation mechanic carries with it more than just being popular (whether that's good or bad.)Exactly my point. You can be despised and still have a high Reputation. The smart bandit who gets a reputation for being brutal, but keeping with the River Freedoms or at least sticking to his oaths, can be despised but still afforded the proper respect.
Someone whom is constantly SADing people is going to make a bad name for himself. People will want to keep him out of the town and not deal with him because of it. They'll know him sure, but he won't be liked.
Anybody Evil isn't going to be "liked", unless they're Mayor Wilkins. Which would be a really fun character to play in this game, come to think of it, but I digress.
Reputation isn't about being "liked". If it was, it'd be only for Good people—preferably Neutral Good, since Chaotic can annoy people and Lawful never wins popularity contests.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Someone whom is constantly SADing people is going to make a bad name for himself. People will want to keep him out of the town and not deal with him because of it. They'll know him sure, but he won't be liked.
Er, that is why there is chaotic, neutral, and evil cities.
Yeah, in a place like the River Kingdoms, I expect plenty of settlements would welcome the bandit's business—as long as he leaves their guys alone. :)