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That is, what tribes and areas are most likely to produce orcs like that guy? And what sort of culture might they have?
Asking both because it would really help people wanting to play orc PCs that don't feel like Drizzt "lone rebels against their kind" clones and people that want to play half-orcs with consensual human/orc parentage, both of whom would appreciate having some non-horrific culture to pull from.
I was hoping Bastards of Golarion would have some support along those lines, but it was frustratingly quiet about those details in favor of pushing tragedy even as it hinted that better possibilities might actually exist. For example, the details on the rainkin half-orcs seems to strongly suggest that there are non-evil orc tribes in the Mwangi Expanse, but I worry that I might be reading too much into that. Likewise with the cragkin, who would be really nice to have work with consensual unions considering that the Shoanti culture fits half-orcs(and orcs) like a glove.
But as is, while Bastards of Golarion seemed to hint at those possibilities, it did very little to offer solid details to work with to flesh out backgrounds and culture. We're told that Averaka is forming a distinct culture all it's own, but we know next to nothing about it. I was hoping that distinct culture might derive from orc progenitors on the island, but orcs aren't explicitly mentioned in Averaka's population, even when the regular meetings of that community to discuss their future is called Orcmoot.
The book seemed to say in passing "sure you could have a child of consensual and loving orc/human pairing"* but offers little on the who's, where's, and how's of it.
What tribe did XXXXXXX's father come from? What kind of culture did they have? How did they differ from the stereotypical CE orcs?
Are there any orc tribes that could have peaceful contact with certain Shoanti quahs, to make that cragkin origin possible?
Are the orc tribes in the Mwangi Expanse that are joining with those human tribes actually non-evil? What kind of culture would they have? How would it differ from their human counterparts?
*Before anyone mentions the "characters with happy backgrounds aren't compelling" thing: Being the child of an actual loving union does not mean they and their children won't have to deal with discrimination and many other sorts of tragedy.
edit-Geez, this sounds like I'm really down on Bastards of Golarion... To be honest, it really wasn't what I was hoping it would be. Still much better than Orcs of Golarion, but I can't help but feel like a lot of opportunities were missed because of the narrow "Bastards/tragedy" focus rather than a wider and more diverse exploration of half-elves/half-orcs, offering and supporting more possibilities rather than focusing on a few.
edit2-Regarding XXXXXXX's father, I don't know anything solid about the guy other than that he's a full orc, a decent guy, and half of a genuinely loving couple that resulted in XXXXXXX's birth. I'm actually going to be playing in that Adventure Path, so please no spoilers.
Well, I don't keep up with Pathfinder canon or lore, so I don't know who that spoiler guy is. But you should trim the title down to three X's, so we can pretend you're talking about Vin Diesel. Or porn. Or both.
But there's no reason to assume all Orc/human doinkings have to be nonconsensual. I have a Half-Orc Ranger that I play sometimes, and his dad was essentially like the Orc Conan the Barbarian. Totally Chaotic Neutral. So he wasn't a part of typical Orc culture, but it wasn't so much an angsty Drizz't thing, it was just that he was such a huge personality that did what he damn well pleased, and got lots of willing, ahhh..."random encounters" as a result.
My other idea was for an Orcess sort of shaman or chieftan, who encounters a human who's just so hardcore that the Orcs accepted him. You can guess what their encounter lead to.
I am guessing Paizo is being very very cautious about establishing "good" orc tribes, since James Jacobs really prefer orcs as a chaotic evil race of pillagers. We don't really know anything about Irabeth's father....he could have been an orphan raised by humans, a victim of polymorph, or someone who was reincarnated as an orc after death.
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@Vamptastic, Yeah, I absolutely agree on not having to stick with that assumption.(a certain NPC in Town of Golarion seems to play to a bit of that too!) It's just that there's so little to build off of if you don't.
I am guessing Paizo is being very very cautious about establishing "good" orc tribes, since James Jacobs really prefer orcs as a chaotic evil race of pillagers. We don't really know anything about Irabeth's father....he could have been an orphan raised by humans, a victim of polymorph, or someone who was reincarnated as an orc after death.
Cripes, all three of those possibilities would be buzzkills, the last two extremely so. :(
While I'd love to see a good orc tribe somewhere, even just some non-evil tribes would be fine and a huge help.
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Cripes, all three of those possibilities would be buzzkills, the last two extremely so. :(
While I'd love to see a good orc tribe somewhere, even just some non-evil tribes would be fine and a huge help.
Have you read Called to Darkness from the Pathfinder Tales fiction line? It contains at least one tribe of almost certainly non-Evil Orcs. I mean, it's fiction and doesn't involve anyone with Detect Evil, so I guess they could be Evil...but basically all evidence in the book seems to contradict that idea.
And the fiction line is canonical. :)
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Have you read Called to Darkness from the Pathfinder Tales fiction line? It contains at least one tribe of almost certainly non-Evil Orcs. I mean, it's fiction and doesn't involve anyone with Detect Evil, so I guess they could be Evil...but basically all evidence in the book seems to contradict that idea.
And the fiction line is canonical. :)
I remember hearing some hints about this way way back now. My concern was that its canonicity would be called into question, but if that isn't the case... Bumping that book up on my reading list. Thanks! :)
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I remember hearing some hints about this way way back now. My concern was that its canonicity would be called into question, but if that isn't the case... Bumping that book up on my reading list. Thanks! :)
I'm pretty sure it's as canonical as the APs, anyway. As in 'this hasn't necessarily happened in your games but might've'.
Huh, is that really a spoiler? The title could have been something simple like "Non-evil orc tribes" :P
Anyway, it seems like the deal with orcs (in Avistan, anyway) is that their tribal structure is almost universally raid/pillage centered. There have probably been tribes that have tried to exist without pillaging for food/supplies, but they would have been easily defeated by their more aggressive brethren. Most non-evil orcs in Avistan are probably runaways (I don't think most get the option of exile...) living far away or among other races. If a tribe ever gets attacked and wiped out by good-aligned humanoids, they probably take in the orc children who then have a chance at a non-evil lifestyle.
Seems like there are more possibilities in Garund. Sand orcs don't seem to be that hated in Osirion/Katapesh, but the books are kind of vague on why. It's either because they aren't very aggressive, or just because gnolls are worse. Bastards of Golarion also suggests that the rainkin are often from consensual unions.
Speaking of Bastards of Golarion... while it didn't really much about consensual unions, it didn't really say anything about non-consensual unions either. It certainly didn't suggest that either would be the default.
A non-evil Belkzen tribe would most likely be a group of CN Gorumites, that prefers attacking the CE orc tribes, or hangs out at the Worldwound border to fight demons, because that's where the best fighting is.
Such a tribe would value bad-assery over pretty much anything else, and members from such a tribe may well go wandering the world to find causes where they could engage in worthy battle, and possibly form relationships with those that impress them.
There's actually quite a number of Gorumite orcs in Belkzen, though a lot of them are still Chaotic Evil - Gorum's Gods & Magic entry indicates that Gorum is a bloodthirsty nutcase who'd see nothing wrong with butchering a civilian populace (as it's their fault for not fighting back well enough). I don't remember if the more detailed Gorum article from Kingmaker put more restraint on Gorum's attitude towards noncombatants.
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For my half-orc's background, I set up the mother as the leader of a band of orcish thugs/mercenaries who preferred to ransom their victims rather than kill them. One of the people they captured was a young Taldan noble, and as often happens in these stories, he eventually fell in love with his captor. (His delicate manly heart was overcome by her strong and savage beauty.)
When he was eventually ransomed, she had become entranced at his description of his home, and so travelled with him to Oparra, now employed as his bodyguard. They had a dozen happy years together, but she was eventually killed defending his life. Soon thereafter, he threw himself into the harbor in grief, leaving behind his teenage daughter. His family agreed to pay for her education, under the proviso that she *never* tell anyone her father's name.
Lazha Heartspray ("of the Tandak Heartsprays") is now a couple's counselor in Oparra, who specializes in helping couples from unusual backgrounds resolve the inevitable conflicts that arise within and around their relationships. She's also a Cleric of Naderi, so if the differences end of being irreconcilable, and the resulting heartbreak is too much to bear -- well, she has ways of helping out then, too.
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I'm really hoping the recent reveal of the all-CE orc pantheon doesn't retcon that Called to Darkness tribe or the cragkin/sandkin/rainkin orc cultures that seemed to at least present something non-evil orcs could get by in.
Maybe it's primarily the pantheon of the Belkzen tribes? Possibly leaving the rainkin pregenitors open to something more like non-evil animism, the cragkin-bearing tribes to Gorum worship, and the tribes run by sandkin to something appropriate for their areas?
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I'm really hoping the recent reveal of the all-CE orc pantheon doesn't retcon that Called to Darkness tribe or the cragkin/sandkin/rainkin orc cultures that seemed to at least present something non-evil orcs could get by in.
Maybe it's primarily the pantheon of the Belkzen tribes? Possibly leaving the rainkin pregenitors open to something more like non-evil animism, the cragkin-bearing tribes to Gorum worship, and the tribes run by sandkin to something appropriate for their areas?
On Golarion, orcs are pretty much chaotic evil. That's not changed, and the reason for it is because their gods are chaotic evil. Orcs who aren't chaotic evil don't currently have a land they can call their own on Golarion, nor do they have a racial deity to champion for them. They're outcasts and have a hard role ahead of them.
If there WERE non-evil orc gods, that'd be a different case, and a different theme, and a different world. We aren't doing that world.
It doesn't retcon ANY existing tribes though. Tribes that aren't evil just don't worship these deities.
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I'm really hoping the recent reveal of the all-CE orc pantheon doesn't retcon that Called to Darkness tribe or the cragkin/sandkin/rainkin orc cultures that seemed to at least present something non-evil orcs could get by in.
Maybe it's primarily the pantheon of the Belkzen tribes? Possibly leaving the rainkin pregenitors open to something more like non-evil animism, the cragkin-bearing tribes to Gorum worship, and the tribes run by sandkin to something appropriate for their areas?
On Golarion, orcs are pretty much chaotic evil. That's not changed, and the reason for it is because their gods are chaotic evil. Orcs who aren't chaotic evil don't currently have a land they can call their own on Golarion, nor do they have a racial deity to champion for them. They're outcasts and have a hard role ahead of them.
If there WERE non-evil orc gods, that'd be a different case, and a different theme, and a different world. We aren't doing that world.
But this also means we just lost the few options we seemed to gain for halfway decent orc cultures for half-orcs to pull from, as well as making it even harder now to have consensually-born half-orcs of direct orc/human parentage or non-evil orc characters that aren't Drizzt-clone/"rebels against their own kind" types.
It just feels like we've lost what little positive possibilities we seemed to have hints of in Bastards of Golarion. :(
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It doesn't retcon ANY existing tribes though. Tribes that aren't evil just don't worship these deities.
Wait, sorry, missed this in the reply:
Does this mean we could see some orc cultures that build off of this? Could there be some located in places like Averaka, offering something decent on the orc-side of things for half-orcs to call their own?
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I'm really hoping the recent reveal of the all-CE orc pantheon doesn't retcon that Called to Darkness tribe or the cragkin/sandkin/rainkin orc cultures that seemed to at least present something non-evil orcs could get by in.
Maybe it's primarily the pantheon of the Belkzen tribes? Possibly leaving the rainkin pregenitors open to something more like non-evil animism, the cragkin-bearing tribes to Gorum worship, and the tribes run by sandkin to something appropriate for their areas?
On Golarion, orcs are pretty much chaotic evil. That's not changed, and the reason for it is because their gods are chaotic evil. Orcs who aren't chaotic evil don't currently have a land they can call their own on Golarion, nor do they have a racial deity to champion for them. They're outcasts and have a hard role ahead of them.
If there WERE non-evil orc gods, that'd be a different case, and a different theme, and a different world. We aren't doing that world.
But this also means we just lost the few options we seemed to gain for halfway decent orc cultures for half-orcs to pull from, as well as making it even harder now to have consensually-born half-orcs of direct orc/human parentage or non-evil orc characters that aren't Drizzt-clone/"rebels against their own kind" types.
It just feels like we've lost what little positive possibilities we seemed to have hints of in Bastards of Golarion. :(
It doesn't mean that at all. There are still non-evil orc cultures and groups in the world. They just don't worship the orc pantheon.
Or alternatively, just pick the parts of what we publish you want to use in your Golarion and ignore the rest.
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It doesn't retcon ANY existing tribes though. Tribes that aren't evil just don't worship these deities.Wait, sorry, missed this in the reply:
Does this mean we could see some orc cultures that build off of this? Could there be some located in places like Averaka, offering something decent on the orc-side of things for half-orcs to call their own?
There could be. We aren't doing anything with that any time soon, though.
What the orc pantheon does is nothing more than give names to the up-until-now unnamed deities of the orc pantheon presented back in Orcs of Golarion. Not naming them then was an error. This table fixes that. It doesn't change anything about other orc tribes at all, any more so than talking about this pantheon back in Orcs of Golarion does.
Nothing... NOTHING in Inner Sea Gods says something like "This means all orcs are evil."
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There could be. We aren't doing anything with that any time soon, though.
I really really hope you guys do someday. I've been aching for that kind of material since Orcs of Golarion was announced... And not just from a GM standpoint. That kind of information is priceless to a player looking to have a background and cultural flavor to pull from outside the "tragic child of violence" trope. :)
Love this thread, Mikaze. I've been working up a half-orc character myself and was hoping for some insight like this. I really, really hate the "all half-orcs were the result of orc-on-human rape" thing, but I was reading through Orcs of Golarion and struggling to imagine any other situation. :(
And then I read BoG and saw the Rainkin, and thought "well, at least they're not the product of violence. I guess it'll do."
Making half-orcs a core player race and then instituting that "orcs are pretty much always CE in Golarion" is a real bummer. The fact that it takes a supplement book published in 2014 to offer any sort of possible idea that maybe there was a consensual human/orc union somewhere along the way is kind of.... ridiculous.
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You are absolutely not alone there. :)
To be honest, as a GM I just flat-out ignore Orcs of Golarion and as a player hope the GM does as well. As a player's companion, it really seemed to work against players more than with them. Unfortunately, it leaves you without any culture at all to draw from.
Definitely prefer orcs as non-always-CE, with the same moral range as humans, perhaps favoring chaotic. That it makes it much, much easier to have half-orcs born of consensual unions is a huge bonus.
Regarding the rainkin, considering the orc tribes that they're born from apparently employ anti-demon tactics and rituals, I'm hoping they might still prove to not fall under what's been described as Golarion orc culture. Something based more on CN/N animism and nature worship perhaps.
I'd love to find some similar hints of non-monstrous mountain orc culture too, to enable some cragkin that can actually have the origins described in Bastards of Golarion amongst the Shoanti, which again would have been the perfect cultural match for non-evil orcs and half-orcs. As is, it's currently the most difficult culture to have a half-orc come from and be able to actually draw from it. The only way I could do it as a player was by having a GM that was cool with using my homebrew material.
Might as well get back to work on my CG/CN Nirmathas and Averaka orc tribe material again. At this point, it's almost become a sort of comfort food.
Long story short is that Sarenrae had long been sickened by the idea of an entire race ensnared by a culture that revered Rovagug. She managed to wrangle a "chosen one", Maja Firehair(a female orc possessed of remarkable empathy, which is usually an unhealthy thing to have in Belkzen), to lead her people towards the light. Said chosen one was more CN than anything, interpreted her visions as a call to conquest, and basically forced her way into the leadership position of her tribe and handed out beatdowns and annexations to other tribes. She did make some changes in orc culture(curbing brutality and sexual inequality, defying and defiling Rovagug's works,) but she was more about getting vengeance on her oppressors than anything else. She was closer to a Gorumite than a Sarenraean.
Orcs of Golarion has orcs using the concept of Crossed Souls, a bit similar to real world beliefs on gender found in some Native American tribes and elsewhere. It actually bugged me to see real world cultures mined for an Always Chaotic Evil culture, but here, it seemed like a good way to get a foot in the door and to kind of "take it back" so to speak.
In Orcs of Golarion, the Crossed Soul concept holds that those female orcs that do manage to rise above the abuse of males and hold their own against them apparently must not actually have female souls. To them, they clearly must be reincarnations of mighty orc champions. These "crossed souls" are generally considered male by their kin and allowed to take wives of their own.
Maja most likely would have been considered one of those individuals by her tribe at the time. And given her empathy, she would have been genuinely protective of those she claimed, whether she was claiming them as actual wives or simply to protect them from abuse. Basically, this led to her falling into the dual role of conqueror and protector, as she extended that protection to the children of her tribe and adult males that weren't completely monstrous in nature. She was certainly pushy about it, but that's orcs for you.
But it wasn't just her alone. Those females that she claimed and those that were drawn to her banner, she drove to stand up, reclaim their pride, and be able to defend themselves rather than perpetuating their own abused position in Belkzen orc society(another element from Orcs of Golarion describing the dysfunctional way life in Belkzen works) For a while, the core part of her tribe was mostly a badass "Amazon brigade" until Maja conquered and absorbed more tribes to even out that demographic. Children raised within these tribes grew up with a much more equalized point of view on male and female capability, and the Crossed Soul concept would eventually fade out of use within those tribes, or it would come to mean something else entirely(that is something I'm still trying to figure out for a society where males and females are treated and expected to function as equals on the battlefield).
Sarenrae was enraged that her chosen one was missing the point and decided the best way to get through to an orc was to speak the same language. She then metaphysically and physically kicked Maja's ass and made her see that there was no future at all for the orcs if they stayed on their current path. A bit of a "Moses and the Burning Bush" vibe, if the Burning Bush was handing out beatings. Finally fully spiritually awakened, Maja started edging more and more into CG and led a change in culture along the way, while continuing her, now far more idealistic, tribal conquest.
This is the element that ties into what still survives of the original "amazon tribe" tradition that was around for a while in Maja's early days of conquest. Once she went full-blown Sarenraen, those female warriors most loyal to her cause tended to identify her directly with Sarenrae either as an avatar or a daughter. Many came to identify themselves as daughters of Maja in turn. This particular warrior and shamanistic tradition survives to the modern day. While many male Nirmathi orcs are fully devoted to and serve Sarenrae, there's still a bit of perception that Sarenrae's chosen are typically females, and there a lines of female warrior companies and wisewomen that are seen as the heart of what the Nirmathi tribes are all about, and they carry a bit more authority than groups of their size normally would within Nirmathi orc society.
And things actually started to come together. Maja had managed to win over the hearts, minds, and souls of four great tribes that had gathered under her banner in southern Belkzen. They had also made a number of enemies that wanted nothing less than to see them wiped out, mainly rival orc tribes, particularly those truly faithful to Rovagug. But more dangerous than that was Kazavon, who had consolidated power in Belkzen at that time.
Maja was hellbent on leading her people against Kazavon in a holy, frenzied crusade before Sarenrae gave her one final vision. Her mission wasn't to conquer in her goddess' name, but to preserve and safeguard the people she had managed to save. If they stayed in Belkzen, they would be wiped out and all of their work would come to nothing, and the orc race would face its eventual self-inflicted extinction. Maja's task was to lead her people to a new land where they could chart their own destiny.
Hounded by rival tribes and the servants of Kazavon, Maja's went south through the mountains of Nirmathas, around Lastwall. After weathering a rough winter and ogre attacks, they finally made their way in to Nirmathas, at that time still mostly unpopulated save for the outlying dwarven settlements that were paying more attention to what was inside the ground than on it. Maja passed when they finally arrived, and the tribes spread out.
They came into conflict with the dwarves from time to time, with the usual racial motivations, but that came mostly to a stop once "this is our side/this is your side" lines were drawn and that the orcs now greatly outnumbered the dwarves(and that the orcs were basically going "don't start none, won't be none" at that point).
The native fey courts of Nirmathas reacted differently. They and the land itself adopted these tribes in their own way. The general outlook of these fey was that they were the nobility, the superstitious orcs were the common folk. Depending on the nature of the individual fey or court, these orcs were sources of entertainment, champions, pawns in their inter-court feuds and games, etc. The orcs in turn generally see the fey as capricious nature spirits, to alternately be revered or avoided, but always approached with a healthy wary respect.
Lastwall was naturally highly suspicious(and alarmed) when orcs settled Nirmathas, and there was conflict before it became clear that most on both sides did not truly have a fight with each other. A mostly chilly, wary truce was kept after that, with Lastwall spending too much of their forces on their southern border to make certain nothing was afoot. True peace and trust between the two nations finally came when Lastwall extradited a band of war criminals that had fled into the country after wiping out a number of Nirmathi orc villages. After these criminals were hanged at the border, old wounds finally started to heal.
Human settlers started rolling into the Nirmathas area from Molthrune(and thus the Chelish Empire), which didn't really recognize the coverignty of a bunch of orcs, who were hardly organized into any sort of nation anyway. The expected conflicts did occur, but when Cheliax crumbled and House Thrune rose, the game really changed. Irgal Nirmath had established healthy relationships with the orc tribes and had earned their respect(and even had a half-orc wife who may have had a child, leading to all sorts of rumors and whispers that speak of that scion as some sort of "royalty", if Nirmathas held to such structures).
Humans and orcs are currently highly integrated in most places in Nirmathas. There are still some regions that are mostly orc and mostly human, but they're all Nirmathi. There, peaceful unions between humans and orcs are the norm rather than the exception, which means the region boasts probably the largest half-orc population in Avistan.
The Molthrune conflict is particularly vicious and painful, because there aren't (m)any real "bad guys" on either side. Molthrune does have a large population of humanoids and "monsters" that have sworn loyalty to that nation, and they've been given acceptance, honor, and station for it. The same offer has been made repeatedly to the orcs, but they remain as fiercely independant as their human countrymen.
Some particularly zealous orcs do make raids into Belkzen from time to time, but these small crusades are most often a drop in the bucket that is the ongoing Belkzen/Lastwall conflict.
Orcs may be getting on well with their neighbors, but there are still aspects of their culture that frighten or disturb others. Many of the tribes do "sky funerals", where the bodies of their dead are left on elevated platforms for carrion birds to pick clean. Some of the traditionalist tribes still have some form of ritualized cannibalism going on, where a new chief eats the heart of the old one to inherit thier strengh and wisdom. Cannibalism period doesn't hold much of a taboo in times of great need, such as during the original exodus from Belkzen. That is only performed with the willing however, and carried out with the utmost respect. (it's been noted with curiosity that there are no reports of orc ghouls in Nirmathas...)
Alternate ability modifiers: +2 STR, +2 WIS, -2 INT
No light sensitivity
Most popular deities: Sarenrae, Valani, Desna, Kurgess, Cayden Cailean, Gorum, Gozreh, Erastil, Pharasma
Just as I suspected. The cruel bigotry directed towards kobolds and lesser races is once again perpetrated by the Disliked One.
James Jacobs.
*Shakes fist*
*Fist gets bitten off by T-Rex*
Well, crap.
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I really really hope you guys do someday. I've been aching for that kind of material since Orcs of Golarion was announced... And not just from a GM standpoint. That kind of information is priceless to a player looking to have a background and cultural flavor to pull from outside the "tragic child of violence" trope. :)
There could be. We aren't doing anything with that any time soon, though.
Anything is possible... but frankly, and from the interests of expectation management... it's not that high on the list of things I'm personally interested in. I think that orcs work better as evil creatures. Not as tragic children of violence, but as a race who whole-heartedly embraces violence. The game NEEDS bad guys, and with orcs in particular, Warcraft has, in my opinion, more or less said what needs to be said on them being misunderstood or not intrinsically evil. Havging a remorselessly evil race (or several) is important for the game and for the world, and I'm not comfortable making that race humans or any of the core races. It's important to have completely good races as well... but not AS important, since the game's default is heroes fighting bad guys.
And that has nothing to do with "rape babies." Don't conflate that unfortunate half-orc stereotype with orcs themselves. Half orcs and orcs are very very very different, and we've actually been trying hard to actively avoid the "rape baby" angle of half-orcs. At the same time, it's not appropriate to sugarcoat things and turn a blind eye to the ugliness of the world. But that said... NPCs like Anevia are very much placed front and center with the spotlight on them so that there are more and more examples of half-orcs who don't fall into that category.
But again... half-orcs are not orcs.
So that means you can expect us to do something big with orcs being evil long before we do something with a significant portion of them being not evil.
Those not evil orcs are more memorable and more interesting and more important when they ARE the exception, after all.
I've said may times before that you can't have EVERYTHING in a game world. On some levels, there's already too many things in Golarion as it stands... woe to any GM who wants to model a realistic predator/prey food chain for the Inner Sea region with all its predators! Defining a game setting or anything is partially what ISN'T in the setting.
There aren't halfling nations, for example. There certainly could be, but there isn't. The fact that halflings don't have a "homeland" is part of their character on Golarion.
Likewise, the fact that the orcs of Golarion are savage and evil is part of THEIR character. There are exceptions to this, but they're not big and they're not things we're going to spend more time detailing than we will the evil orcs, since if we do spend more time detailing them, it doesn't matter how small they are... in print, they become bigger.
There ARE bestial races in Golarion that fit this bill of the "not beautiful but also not evil" though. Lizardfolk, strix, locathah, ratfolk, andnagaji all come to mind.
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To be honest, as a GM I just flat-out ignore Orcs of Golarion and as a player hope the GM does as well. As a player's companion, it really seemed to work against players more than with them. Unfortunately, it leaves you without any culture at all to draw from.
And that's the absolute right way to handle it.
But don't expect us to change our vision of Golarion to match, is all I'm saying.
The fact that folks can change and adapt as much or as little of Golarion as they want for their campaigns is, in fact, pretty much the entire point of the world. It's why we made the setting so compartmentalized. If you want a Golarion where orcs aren't 99.99999999999% chaotic evil, then it's easy enough to excise or adjust Belkzen and presto, you're done! The other 45-some regions don't really need any adjustment at all.
And frankly... maybe picking up some Warcraft material for non-evil orc stuff might scratch the itch? If you're comfortable ignoring an official Golarion product, you should be comfortable canonizing stuff from elsewhere, yeah?
The Shoanti are pretty anti-orc, though... again, on purpose and by design. A place where the Shoanti and orcs live in peace isn't really something I'm interested in building for Varisia.
ANYWAY... it strikes me that my presence in this thread might actually be disruptive... so I'll bow out for now, and sorry if I threw anything off course.
Half-orcs breed true, right? (Among themselves and in pairings with humans or orcs). Maybe there could be a settlement of them (or largely of them), where a good character of consensual breeding came from.
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A few points I would like to make about 'Always Evil' Orcs:
First, they aren't. Their culture is, and there are no large groups that aren't, but non-Evil Orc individuals are canonical. So, there's that.
Second, and at least as importantly, who said Evil equals rape? Evil makes rape more possible, and more likely, but it doesn't necessitate it in any way.
An Evil person (or Orc) can fall in love and care for people, or cold-bloodedly seduce them for advantage, or have sex and children in a million ways that aren't rape. Orcs may not be the greatest charmers in the world, but then, they don't need to be, just good enough to get someone into bed.
Indeed, Orcs worship Rovagug, not Lamashtu. Rape is more likely to be the exception than the rule (though I admit they are noted as doing it sometimes in order to produce half-orcs, who are useful).
I can understand the desire for an "Always Evil" enemy race, but making half of a core race have one of these as one of its progenitors (half-orcs) makes it tough. Running your own game (homebrew or Golarion) in which you make orcs more like Warcraft and less like Tolkien is fine. But not every GM does that. And if you are one of those people who wish for a concensual relationship of your half-orc's parents (such as Mikaze, or me, or some of the others in this thread and others), you gotta convince that GM that it could be possible. And some are stubborn in saying all orcs are evil, so you gotta go for the tired "rape baby" origin.
Yes, you could just not play with that GM or make another character, hoping you find a GM that will say Yes to your half-orc that had a pair of loving parents. Could Paizo have elected to not include the half-orc as a playable race? Absolutely. But they probably had their hands tied to include them as they were launched from the corpse of 3rd edition, which had that race as an option. 4th edition had a bit more leeway, since they completely redid the whole thing, taking practically nothing from the previous edition, building itself from the ground up. 5th edition is doing the same thing.
I personally dislike enemy races, and think Gygax's and Arneson's relegation of beings that are not plain "humans with hats" as the quintessential bad guys was a terrible idea. It's one of the things I thought was brilliant with the Eberron setting. There was no "always evil", and there were settlements of good "enemy races". There were good red dragons and evil silver dragons. Those ogres could want to shake your hand or crush your skull. It wasn't just the player races that could run the gammut from Lawful Good to Chaotic Evil.
I do understand Paizo's stance on including enemy races. But not all GMs are willing to let a player roll up a character of an enemy race, unless it is an evil campaign. Even then, not necessarily.
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I think you are not understanding the problem that the OP (and those who support the OP) are having.
No, I understand and agree with Mikaze on that and most other points...but your post above, and several others, seemed to be taking a somewhat hyberbolic and simplistic view of the matter, so I felt some clarification was necessary.
Mikaze, I feel for you.
On the one hand, from a world building and moralistic standpoint, I agree with you. Having an entire race of creatures who are "supposed to be evil" even if there are token exceptions removes entire spectrums of character options as far as fluff goes. Your race choice, at some point, will become your personality; there will be no separating the two. Which by the way, seems to be the reason some of the Paizo staffers have a dislike of dwarves. Despite having no artificial limitations on their alignment, there appears to be only one kind of dwarf that people play: the Scotch-Irish drunkard with a zest for battle and showmanship, perhaps with a Napoleon complex (oversimplification for illustrative purposes).
On the other hand, the system itself is built around objective alignment, so naturally the world the company builds for it is going to be black or white about these sorts of things. :/ That's just how it is.
Personally, I'd like to see you write your own setting. Weren't you the one who came up with the demi-goddess (Empyreal Lord/Lady?) that pretended to be a bad guy to lead people to heroic destinies? I fricken' loved that.
And frankly... maybe picking up some Warcraft material for non-evil orc stuff might scratch the itch? If you're comfortable ignoring an official Golarion product, you should be comfortable canonizing stuff from elsewhere, yeah?I guess you haven't played World of Warcraft in awhile, because the writers have swung the orcs right back to being evil again, with them gleefully cheering the slaughter of Theramore. It really makes you not want to play an orc in Warcraft anymore.
Actually, you can do things about the whole Predator/Prey thing when you do your next round of bestiaries (Bestiary 5 or in future Chronicles/AP books).
Just remember that Herbivores can be just as dangerous as Carnivores. They can be territorial, ill-tempered, paranoid(you might be a predator), or whatever (Here's an idea: an Herbivore that kills other creatures because the plant that's it's primary source of food grows (best) from corpses).
After all, more people in Africa are killed by Hippopotami/muses than Lions. Just because an animal won't eat you, doesn't mean it won't hurt you.
Actually, you can do things about the whole Predator/Prey thing when you do your next round of bestiaries (Bestiary 5 or in future Chronicles/AP books).
Just remember that Herbivores can be just as dangerous as Carnivores. They can be territorial, ill-tempered, paranoid(you might be a predator), or whatever (Here's an idea: an Herbivore that kills other creatures because the plant that's it's primary source of food grows (best) from corpses).
After all, more people in Africa are killed by Hippopotami/muses than Lions. Just because an animal won't eat you, doesn't mean it won't hurt you.
Erm... what?
Tried quoting one of JJ(Thwip!)'s posts above, but it cut off at the point I actually wanted to address.
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Actually, you can do things about the whole Predator/Prey thing when you do your next round of bestiaries (Bestiary 5 or in future Chronicles/AP books).
Just remember that Herbivores can be just as dangerous as Carnivores. They can be territorial, ill-tempered, paranoid(you might be a predator), or whatever (Here's an idea: an Herbivore that kills other creatures because the plant that's it's primary source of food grows (best) from corpses).
After all, more people in Africa are killed by Hippopotami/muses than Lions. Just because an animal won't eat you, doesn't mean it won't hurt you.
The lack of prey isn't the problem. (There's plenty of peasants out there, after all!) It's more the huge range of monsters that can cause problems to people who try to fit workable populations of an ever-increasing cast of monsters into a region that remains the same size, regardless of how many Bestiaries we publish.
My take: I don't worry about that level of detail, since to me, having a wide variety of monsters is MUCH more important than realistic ecology requirements.
It's sort of been a staple of fantasy for a long time to have various Fantasy races act as stand-ins for real world historical cultures. The problem is that having a monstrous race like orcs do this is... Well, offensive. I was always under the impression that the general stance of Paizo was that it was preferable to have actual different Human ethnicities act as stand-ins for Real Human cultures and let the humans be the humans and the monsters be the monsters, rather than raise that red flag of "Orcs are the stand-ins for X minority tribal culture!"
My gut impression is that if you want the diversity of human struggle on Golarion, you play as a human. I'm kindof okay with this.
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It's sort of been a staple of fantasy for a long time to have various Fantasy races act as stand-ins for real world historical cultures. The problem is that having a monstrous race like orcs do this is... Well, offensive. I was always under the impression that the general stance of Paizo was that it was preferable to have actual different Human ethnicities act as stand-ins for Real Human cultures and let the humans be the humans and the monsters be the monsters, rather than raise that red flag of "Orcs are the stand-ins for X minority tribal culture!"
My gut impression is that if you want the diversity of human struggle on Golarion, you play as a human. I'm kindof okay with this.
That's pretty much exactly the case.
Orcs are orcs. They don't "stand in" for any specific real-world culture.
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@Foghammer: Thanks. I'm actually going to get back to working on homebrew now since...well...this thread probably isn't going to get rerailed at this point.
I personally dislike enemy races, and think Gygax's and Arneson's relegation of beings that are not plain "humans with hats" as the quintessential bad guys was a terrible idea.
The "Always Chaotic Evil" trope has always disturbed me, from my earliest days with the game. Not just as a matter of principle, but because it leads to some very ugly territory, such as the "good guys" engaging in genocide, child killing, and all that other stuff that makes it perverse to even say the game is about genuine good vs evil at that point.
I just don't see a need for entire races of people to be tagged as evil and "okay to kill" in order to have a solid Good vs. Evil fantasy game when organizations fill that role so much more cleanly.
I guess you haven't played World of Warcraft in awhile, because the writers have swung the orcs right back to being evil again, with them gleefully cheering the slaughter of Theramore. It really makes you not want to play an orc in Warcraft anymore.
Well that's really disheartening to read on top of everything else. :(
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I guess you haven't played World of Warcraft in awhile, because the writers have swung the orcs right back to being evil again, with them gleefully cheering the slaughter of Theramore. It really makes you not want to play an orc in Warcraft anymore.Well that's really disheartening to read on top of everything else. :(
Well that actually applies to Garrosh's own Nazi-Orc only Horde, the latest patch, Siege of Orgrimmar , is all about the rest of the world, Horde and Alliance both, finally getting tired of his shit and going all Roaring Rampage of Recenge on him and his followers. So no, they still be a lot of good Orcs in Azeroth, and they. Are. Pissed.
@Foghammer: Thanks. I'm actually going to get back to working on homebrew now since...well...this thread probably isn't going to get rerailed at this point.
I personally dislike enemy races, and think Gygax's and Arneson's relegation of beings that are not plain "humans with hats" as the quintessential bad guys was a terrible idea.The "Always Chaotic Evil" trope has always disturbed me, from my earliest days with the game. Not just as a matter of principle, but because it leads to some very ugly territory, such as the "good guys" engaging in genocide, child killing, and all that other stuff that makes it perverse to even say the game is about genuine good vs evil at that point.
I just don't see a need for entire races of people to be tagged as evil and "okay to kill" in order to have a solid Good vs. Evil fantasy game when organizations fill that role so much more cleanly.
I guess you haven't played World of Warcraft in awhile, because the writers have swung the orcs right back to being evil again, with them gleefully cheering the slaughter of Theramore. It really makes you not want to play an orc in Warcraft anymore.Well that's really disheartening to read on top of everything else. :(
I notice threads like this usually derail quickly and don't really get back. Threads with such differing opinions (such as your own and Mr Jacobs'), but not about super volatile subjects, go off on tangents rather easy.
And I agree with you about the organizations. That's how it is in my own homebrew world, and I try not to have enemy races. I really need to get on working my world again. The terrible experience of my failed attempt to run a game set in it killed a lot of the motivation.
@Foghammer: Thanks. I'm actually going to get back to working on homebrew now since...well...this thread probably isn't going to get rerailed at this point.
Didn't mean to derail; I was just glad to find someone sharing my viewpoint :)
To get back to your original question: I think the existence of the Rain-kin indicates that orc tribes in Mwangi are much less evil than the standard orcs of Golarion, as evidenced by the fact that they can work out peaceful arranged marriages with neighboring human tribes.
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Sorry, didn't mean to accuse anyone in particular of derailing. :)
And I really hope that's the case with the tribes the rainkin come from, especially since the anti-demon traits they employ practically screams it, but what's been said so far is rather discouraging.
Well that actually applies to Garrosh's own Nazi-Orc only Horde, the latest patch, Siege of Orgrimmar , is all about the rest of the world, Horde and Alliance both, finally getting tired of his s*@~ and going all Roaring Rampage of Recenge on him and his followers. So no, they still be a lot of good Orcs in Azeroth, and they. Are. Pissed.
I'm honestly relieved to hear that. :)
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Sorry, didn't mean to accuse anyone in particular of derailing. :)
And I really hope that's the case with the tribes the rainkin come from, especially since the anti-demon traits they employ practically screams it, but what's been said so far is rather discouraging.
Well that actually applies to Garrosh's own Nazi-Orc only Horde, the latest patch, Siege of Orgrimmar , is all about the rest of the world, Horde and Alliance both, finally getting tired of his s*@~ and going all Roaring Rampage of Recenge on him and his followers. So no, they still be a lot of good Orcs in Azeroth, and they. Are. Pissed.I'm honestly relieved to hear that. :)
Zug-Zug :3
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I allways thought that there are CE humans out there that are so cruel and violent the even Orcs respect them and sometimes they have consensual unions. There is no need for good orcs, entire human populations can be as bad as them and join them ravaging the countryside. The good half-orcs born from these unions are rebels that try to break this circle of evil.
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I see the Orcs as closer to the Mongol Horde of old. The Mongol society is entirely merit based. So is the Orcs. That's why in Orc society it's possible for a woman like Kring the Beautiful to become one of the most powerful of the warchiefs in Belkzen. In civilized society, like Taldor, is that possible? Not really.
Taldor isn't notably sexist...so yeah, that easily could happen there. It'd admittedly be more difficult for a commoner, but even then it's probably as doable as being doing it as a woman among Orcs.
That's not to necessarily disagree with the rest of your post...which I think certainly has an element of truth, but most nations on Golarion have a notable lack of sexism, which seemed worth bringing up.
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I'm with James Jacobs on a lot of things when it comes to the need for primarily evil antagonist races for the PCs to smite willy nilly, but the issue for me is that because it's orcs that means one of the core PC races, Half-Orcs get the short end of the stick.
Anyway, if you're going to add non-evil orc clans to the game, the one I would like to see is:
The White Tower Orcs
Once known as the Greyspire clan, these orcs terrorized the borders of Lastwall for decades. Foul and brutish as any clan, these orcs believed in one thing above all others: Might Makes Right. Their spiritual leaders were Warpriests of Gorum, their leaders were fighters and barbarians. These were orcs with a capital ORC. Living around a fortress known as Greyspire their coming-of-age was raiding the nearest human villages of Lastwall for slaves and food.
Until Lastwall managed a sweep of victories to the North sixteen years ago. With defenders able to freely move from the entrenched lines, an army was called forth to besiege the fortress of Greyspire. The Orcs were tenacious, vicious marauders, but they were unprepared for a siege.
Now here's where things get tricky. See the this siege was headed by Haroldemus Crag, a half-orc cavalier, a worshipper of Sarenrae, and by all accounts a good man. Every day he'd offer the orcs a choice:
"Stay in Greyspire and starve, or join the stronger side."
The Orcs of Greyspire were raised to believe "might makes right". Well this time the army of Lastwall seemed mightier. Over the next year, one by one, or two by two, orcs would sneak out of Greyspire and join the Lastwall besiegers.
The orc deserters would be clapped in chains and sent to a prison camp, where brave soldiers, clerics and wizards worked tirelessly to reeducate the orcs. It was tough going, orcs are hardly known for their quick learning. It's hard to redeem a creature that looks at a human baby like a tasty snack. Slowly though they learned the lesson, "the strong protect the weak."
Meanwhile the siege continued, and the small group of powerful defenders would not let Greytower fall. It was a year before the siege finally ended, and it ended with the help of the first group of deserters. General Haroldemus Crag led a mixed group of the deserters, human knights, and a curious gnome arcanist named Quigly, through a little known path through the Darklands into the basement of Greyspire. Opening the gates and allowing the besiegers to storm the tower. The leader of Greyspire, a cruel and powerful orc Barbarian named Graggog fought to the last, always believing he was the strongest one there is.
But Haroldemus defeated him in single combat.
Graggog submitted to Haroldemus, expecting a swift execution.
"You are mighty Graggog," said Haroldemus, "but I will not slay my own father. Not when his mighty thews can defend the new borders of Lastwall. You will be my general, and this will become the White Tower, sentinel at the border between Lastwall and Belkzen."
So it was that Lastwall had redeemed a vicious band of orcs, who know fight under the banner of White Tower.
Current Society:
White Tower orcs are usually Chaotic Neutral, with some Chaotic Good or True Neutral members. The orc children raised in the village of White Tower are being raised and educated in the nearby villages of Lastwall, learning the values that make Lastwall a bastion of goodness surrounded by darkness.
The population is roughly 3:2:1, Humans:Orcs:Half-Orcs, with many half-orcs requesting to be stationed at White Tower, due to the lower stigma of serving there. Clerics of Sarenrae often take pilgrimage to White Tower, as a reminder that hope for redemption is never lost, as long as one is willing to take a hard path to it. Clerics of Gorum are still common in White Tower, but their sermons are tempered with war as a responsibility of the strong on behalf of the weak.
Of course despite their goodness, orcs are orcs and in battle are often noted as screaming: "GOOD FOR THE GOOD GODDESS!" While swinging their axes at their Belkzen foes. They paint their faces with white war paint, and their shields with the white tower (repainted after Haroldemus' victory).
Anyway, hope that helps.
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Slowly though they learned the lesson, "the strong protect the weak."
Now that cultural seed is something I absolutely can get behind for orcs. It offers range, allows for values dissonance between races, and is appropriately "orcish". :D The Nirmathi orcs I had to make for my PC's background had a similar outlook expressed by the one that founded their culture and led them out of Belkzen.
I'd love to see enclaves like this showing Sarenites actually succeeding at redeeming people, both as a "proof of concept" and to offer some cultural options for players.
I'm just annoyed I can't have my half-orc be the product of a loving union between a human and an elf.
Paizo is so racist.