A theory about Aroden and the Whispering Tyrant


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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I received my copy of Mythic Realms today (It's awesome) and after reading through the section on the Whispering Tyrant I spotted a funny little passage that got the wheels in my head turning.

Spoiler:
The two met on the Isle of Terror in 896 AR, the battle raged for days and leveled the entire surface of the island. Tar-Baphon's broken form lay among the rubble, and Aroden buried him there, thinking that was the end of the threat.

However, Tar-Baphon had intended to die by Arodens hand all along. His studies had revealed that to him his only true path to immortality lay in Undeath. For Tar-baphon's last step in becoming a Lich beyond compare he needed to be killed by a God.

This of course has led me to believe that

Spoiler:
Aroden became the phylactery that the Whispering Tyrant was linked too. Of course a living phylactery has it's own advantages and disadvantages, being that the phylactery can be killed, hence the reason that the Whispering Tyrant hasn't been noted trying to escape his imprisonment, he could be completely gone, but no-one is willing to check, (it's like a Schroedinger's Cat theory).

I'm thinking a process similar to Lord Voldemorts Horcuxes in the Harry Potter series, which in and of itself is taken from the idea of a Lich placing it's soul in a receptacle to achieve everlasting life through undeath, but also (on-purpose and accidentally) placing a portion of a soul in a living being.

Like all theories there are holes, but I will continue to think on this and see if I can't make it as solid a theory as possible. Let me know what you think and whether or not there are things I should take into consideration.


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It's implied that Urgathoa may have Tar-Baphon's phylactery:

Spoiler:
"The Whispering Tyrant may have struck a bargain with Urgathoa to hide his phylactery somewhere even the other gods can't find it. No magic is able to locate it or discern the means to destroy it. Only by recovering this treasure can the good people of Golarion finally hope to put an end to the Whispering Tyrant."


Yes, I read that too. It certainly is an interesting thing to try and puzzle out. I mean the way it's written it seems like it is just an old tale.

Spoiler:
I mean, nobody neither Man or God can find it. That just further reinforces that nobody really nows what it is. Urgathoa could be doing him a favour, by pretending to know where it is, in an effort to draw suspicion away from the true phylactery, which could be an object (rules state it is at least a minor artifact, with a specific method of destruction) or who knows?

His ascension to Lichdom had to be something downright incredible (getting a god to personally come down from his throne to whoop yo' ass is pretty incredible), so it makes sense that the phylactery which his incredibly powerful soul is bound too would also have to be something as mind-bogglingly incredible (which the body of a diety would fit quite nicely).


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His ascension:

Spoiler:
The way it's written implies, to me at least, that Tar-Baphon realised that in order to become a mythic lich instead of a "normal" lich (i.e. mythic ranked lich instead of lich template with mythic tiers), he'd need a very particular method of undertaking lichdom, of which one of the necessary steps was to have a god kill him (it could have been any god, really, from a "Divine Source" deity on up through the demigod ranks to a full-fledged god).

Remember, though, that it also took a few thousand years for the process to actually complete itself once Aroden set the wheels in motion. I seriously doubt that Aroden, as a full deity, would somehow have been unaware that he had a mortal soul taking a joyride inside him and/or spending two thousand years grafting itself onto him. He almost certainly realised how Tar-Baphon had suckered him once the Whispering Tyrant rose as a lich, but Aroden being a phylactery and not knowing it stretches my suspension of disbelief a bit too far.


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Also, Tar-Baphon spent a long time in the Runelord of Gluttony's special place, where it's believed his body is held (tho not his spirit, which is hidden away in a phylactery of sorts). It's heavily implied that this place is where he gained his mythic powers/knowledge and also attracted the god Aroden. Not only that, but nobody else that we know of has ever been to the lowest levels of that unhallowed place.
Could very well be that his phylactery is in there.
It could also be that maybe he doesn't have one at all. Maybe because of the way he rose up from lichdom he doesn't need it. Maybe the island itself is the phylactery.


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IIRC, Dungeons of Golarian identified Tar-Baphon's phylactery - it's an obelisk well below Gallowspire that's an artifact in its own right.

Urgathoa, in turn, is shielding said obelisk against all divination, making it incredibly difficult to (a) actually confirm that obelisk is the phylactery, and (b) figure out how to destroy it.

Scarab Sages

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Zhangar wrote:

IIRC, Dungeons of Golarian identified Tar-Baphon's phylactery - it's an obelisk well below Gallowspire that's an artifact in its own right.

Urgathoa, in turn, is shielding said obelisk against all divination, making it incredibly difficult to (a) actually confirm that obelisk is the phylactery, and (b) figure out how to destroy it.

No, that's his spellbook.

p.20 wrote:

Level 10. The Pillar (CR 22): Leaving the caves behind,

this small level culminates in a large room containing
a gigantic obelisk carved from a single piece of strange
metal. Inscribed on the surface of this monolith are
hundreds, if not thousands, of spells, composing much of
the Whispering Tyrant’s vast pool of arcane knowledge.
Those hoping to glean knowledge from the pillar must
also deal with a large number of traps and runes designed
to kill or incapacitate. This level is populated primarily
by powerful spellcasters, including a number of the
Whispering Tyrant’s lich apprentices and several powerful
visiting outsiders who were trapped within the dungeon
when the place was sealed.


p.20 wrote:

Level 10. The Pillar (CR 22): Leaving the caves behind,

this small level culminates in a large room containing
a gigantic obelisk carved from a single piece of strange
metal. Inscribed on the surface of this monolith are
hundreds, if not thousands, of spells, composing much of
the Whispering Tyrant’s vast pool of arcane knowledge.
Those hoping to glean knowledge from the pillar must
also deal with a large number of traps and runes designed
to kill or incapacitate. This level is populated primarily
by powerful spellcasters, including a number of the
Whispering Tyrant’s lich apprentices and several powerful
visiting outsiders who were trapped within the dungeon
when the place was sealed.

That to me sounds like a back-up spellbook.


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We also know - according to Dungeons of Golarion - that Tar-Baphon's phylactery is beneath Gallowspire, since that's where his body re-formed after he was imprisoned.


TheWarriorPoet519 wrote:
We also know - according to Dungeons of Golarion - that Tar-Baphon's phylactery is beneath Gallowspire, since that's where his body re-formed after he was imprisoned.

It's my belief that his body wasn't destroyed, but merely rendered helpless. Therefore he wouldn't regen at his phylactery, and his phylactery could be somewhere else entirely.

Where in Dungeons of Golarion does it specifically say his phylactery is? Beause according to Mythic Realms it's in the possession of Urgathoa (or she atleast knows where she hid it).


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It's on page 15 "But the crusaders knew that the lich could not be so easily defeated---they knew that Tar-Baphon had but retreated to his phylactery, somewhere deep within Gallowspire"

As far as I remember that's about as clear of an indication as to where his phylactery is as it gets. It's been said that Urgathoa knows where it is and keeps it hidden or some such, I don't remember the exact statement.

I'm doing my own thing with it in my campaign, but I think that this is current canon.


Annika L wrote:
As far as I remember that's about as clear of an indication as to where his phylactery is as it gets. It's been said that Urgathoa knows where it is and keeps it hidden or some such, I don't remember the exact statement.

I quoted it in the spoiler tagged post above.


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A Ninja wrote:
TheWarriorPoet519 wrote:
We also know - according to Dungeons of Golarion - that Tar-Baphon's phylactery is beneath Gallowspire, since that's where his body re-formed after he was imprisoned.
It's my belief that his body wasn't destroyed, but merely rendered helpless. Therefore he wouldn't regen at his phylactery, and his phylactery could be somewhere else entirely.

There is a bit of Lore inconsistency on this, I admit, and that's probably a good thing (gives the GM a bit more freedom to pick and choose how they'd like the truth to actually be). But Dungeons of Golarion and The Inner Sea World Guide both imply pretty heavily that Tar-Baphon's physical body was destroyed by the Crusaders. IIRC, when he attempted to summon General Arnisant's heart into his hand with a Wish spell, the Shield of Aroden the general was carrying protected him, though it shattered into a bunch of pieces, and one of those chunks pierced the Lich's hand, obliterating him. This is by memory, so I may be wrong, but then Dungeons of Golarion does say (as Annika said above) that when they sealed him away, they knew he'd gone to his phylactery and would regenerate. I believe a later section of the text also says that when he regenerated in the dungeon, he found himself trapped. That would imply pretty strongly that his body was destroyed, and that thus his phylactery is down there somewhere.


Sorry Alleran =\


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Oh! One of the Plot Hooks for Gallowspire listed in that book also states that The Crusaders know his Phylactery is down there, and the hook posits a scenario where a group of adventurers can be sent into the dungeon to find and destroy it. It also says this is a maddeningly suicidal mission.


Very unconventional lich phylacteries have always been a pet peeve of mine. They're right up there with no win ways to destroy an evil artifact. At least some obelisk is tolerable compared to what others have tried to come up with for phylacteries.


From the forgotten realms was a lich who shattered his phylactery into many pieces...you had to find them all to end him...aumvor the undying???

Boy! did that annoy me...you gotta give the heroes SOME chance to win...otherwise your just a killer dm all alone in the end.


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"My Phylactery is Golarion. Trololololol."


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For some fun make an entire family line or race your phylactery. Genocide is fun. So much fun for everyone!

Dark Archive

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My favorite trick is sealing an even more powerful lich/demon in your phylactery.


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Zutha, Runelord of Gluttony has a pretty cool phylactery: split into three pieces, his body in a separate place.

Honestly, I think that at the very least the Whispering Tyrant was influenced by the Runelord in some way, not just in his necromantic powers but perhaps through other means as well. It could be Zutha has a stronger influence on the Lich than Tar-Baphon would care to admit, or perhaps he has to fight off the runelord's influence in a constant battle of wills, which is why he hasn't really returned since his defeat. He could, but he's been so busy with trying to deal with the voice, he doesn't have full use of his abilities to break out.

Scarab Sages

What if the shield of aroden became his phylactery when it shattered, and the holiest artifact of lastwall is the lich's most daring ruse. I'm sure a contingency spell could have well duplicated him burning away to "reform" in the depths, and for all we know, the knights really only killed his simulacrum that lives down there too.

Sczarni RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

TheWarriorPoet519 wrote:
"My Phylactery is Golarion. Trololololol."

That is similar to a campaign I once played in. The world's core was the lich's phylactery, and the lich wished to die forever. She was planning on destroying the whole world, so we were caught in this tough spot with how to stop her for good.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
A Ninja wrote:

I received my copy of Mythic Realms today (It's awesome) and after reading through the section on the Whispering Tyrant I spotted a funny little passage that got the wheels in my head turning.

** spoiler omitted **

This of course has led me to believe that

** spoiler omitted **

Like all theories there are holes, but I will continue to think on this and see if I can't make it as solid a theory as possible. Let me know what you think and whether or not there are things I should take into consideration.

That might certainly explain why Aroden died. The idea of sacrificing himself to finally defeat an otherwise immortal enemy seems like something the LN Aroden might feel obligated to do.


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Ok, after reading most others posts, it seems that the Whispering Tyrants phylactery is indeed down in Gallowspire.

It is indeed possible that he pulled a Runelord Zutha and split his Phylactery into multiple parts, some are down in Gallowspire but one piece could be in Urgathoas possession (as per Allerans first post).

It is indeed very, very inconistent in the lore as to what actually happened when the Shield of Aroden appeared in his hand, did he just burst into flames and be weak enough (but not destroyed) to be tossed into Gallowspire and sealed, or was actually destroyed and is regenerating and sealed.

Scarab Sages

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Dungeons p.15 wrote:

Yet so great was the Whispering Tyrant’s power that when

his magic smote the shield, it shattered into many pieces.
One shard pierced Tar-Baphon’s hand, destroying his
body with holy fire.

and then

Realms p.63 wrote:

Bearing the Shield

of Aroden, General Arnisant faced the lich, but when the
Whispering Tyrant used a wish to summon the general’s
heart to his waiting claw, the symbol of Aroden f lared to
life, the shield shattered, and the lich’s body was destroyed.

Now we also know 5 more things:

1) He is trapped in Tyrant's Rest beneath Gallowspire (Dungeons).
2) The Knights made a broad assumption that the Phylactery was below (Realms), and sealed the door, hoping that was where TB would regenerate (Dungeons).
3) A phylactery regenerates the lich's body "nearby" (Bestiary).
4) TB is still wielding the Horns of Nagara, and Tyrant's Ring, both artifacts, that unless TB went into battle without his equipment, would have remained as loot after he was destroyed, unless the shield of Aroden happened to be those artifacts' destruction method (Not the Horns [Dungeons]) (Realms).
5) His body was destroyed, and he had a recovery period (Dungeons p.19), whether this was phylactery regeneration or not, unknown.

So, making some broad assumptions here:
A) TB wasn't *destroyed* (AKA reached 0 HP) by the encounter with the shield, but triggered a contingency of sorts to wisk him away to safety.
B) Since he didn't reach 0 HP, his phylactery didn't regenerate him, and could presumably not be located within the depth of Gallowspire.
C) The fact that his equipment (specifically his two signature artifacts) are still with him represent either an anachronism in the timeline of his fall, or a proof that his magic kept him from being 0hp destroyed, or even a literary device ignoring loot tendencies of even great orders of knights.


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In my campaign, the Whispering Tyrant's phylactery is stuck in a failure mode: It keeps trying to rebuild Tar-Baphon, but the fragment of the Shield of Aroden that is stuck in his body destroys it faster than it can be regenerated.


Quote:
In my campaign, the Whispering Tyrant's phylactery is stuck in a failure mode: It keeps trying to rebuild Tar-Baphon, but the fragment of the Shield of Aroden that is stuck in his body destroys it faster than it can be regenerated.

In my campaign, I'm using a similar concept. I think personally, that the shard is stuck in his hand and no matter how many times he regenerates, he can't rid himself of the shard and is weakened by it to a degree, which no doubt does not make him a happy little muggle. My personal theory is that the

Spoiler:
negative material planer crystal in Dungeons of Golarion, page 20., lvl 9 is his actual phylactery and that he has shards of it tied to something like ioun stones else where that will have to be found and destroyed in order to actually destroy his main phylactery. Not a perfect idea, but it works for my campaign

I never understood what stared the entire hatefest between Aroden and TB in the first place. It almost sounds like a good bromance gone bad and the fallout from the breakup is behind the entire thing (jk)


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The hatefest apparently started because Tar-Baphon was a rising tyrant and necromantic overlord in his own right who had been working in the pits of Zutha's resting place, studying all he could to finding some perfect or near perfect form of lichdom. He discovered it, and sought to draw the attention of the gods with his magics.

By claiming to be the heir of Thassilon or something, he attracted the attention of Aroden, who saw the evil of Thassilon and proclaimed that such evil must never pervert humanity again. The two fought and Aroden slew him. Which was part of Tar-Baphon's plan to gain immortality, like hardcore mythic level lichdom. It took a hell of a lot of time though, which he didn't really count on.

Since his coming, he and Aroden's followers have been at each others throats. Once again, this is proof of the arrogance of gods and how they have created many of the worst problems that humanity has, showing that the Aboleth way is best. The other example is the Pit of Gormuz, or as I like to call it, Sarenrae's temper tantrum.


Spoiler:
archmagi1 wrote:
Dungeons p.15 wrote:

Yet so great was the Whispering Tyrant’s power that when

his magic smote the shield, it shattered into many pieces.
One shard pierced Tar-Baphon’s hand, destroying his
body with holy fire.

and then

Realms p.63 wrote:

Bearing the Shield

of Aroden, General Arnisant faced the lich, but when the
Whispering Tyrant used a wish to summon the general’s
heart to his waiting claw, the symbol of Aroden f lared to
life, the shield shattered, and the lich’s body was destroyed.

Now we also know 5 more things:

1) He is trapped in Tyrant's Rest beneath Gallowspire (Dungeons).
2) The Knights made a broad assumption that the Phylactery was below (Realms), and sealed the door, hoping that was where TB would regenerate (Dungeons).
3) A phylactery regenerates the lich's body "nearby" (Bestiary).
4) TB is still wielding the Horns of Nagara, and Tyrant's Ring, both artifacts, that unless TB went into battle without his equipment, would have remained as loot after he was destroyed, unless the shield of Aroden happened to be those artifacts' destruction method (Not the Horns [Dungeons]) (Realms).
5) His body was destroyed, and he had a recovery period (Dungeons p.19), whether this was phylactery regeneration or not, unknown.

So, making some broad assumptions here:
A) TB wasn't *destroyed* (AKA reached 0 HP) by the encounter with the shield, but triggered a contingency of sorts to wisk him away to safety.
B) Since he didn't reach 0 HP, his phylactery didn't regenerate him, and could presumably not be located within the depth of Gallowspire.
C) The fact that his equipment (specifically his two signature artifacts) are still with him represent either an anachronism in the timeline of his fall, or a proof that his magic kept him from being 0hp destroyed, or even a literary device ignoring loot tendencies of even great orders of knights.

Archmagi sums it up pretty well, just one other thing. In Mythic Realms, it is stated that Urgathoa may have the phylactery in her possession, or at least has had a hand in hiding it so that magic can not find it.

Scarab Sages

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Okay, so I was thinking just now on the whole "may have stricken a deal with Urgathoa" adventure hook in Realms. One of the Pallid Princess's aspects deals with hedonism, and her whole walking away from death back story gives a certain amount of pride to her character. What if her deal with TB was to make the most grandiose, lavish, over-the-top phylactery ever: Gallowspire.

Sure, he had to actually construct the citadel and labyrinth after he was already a lich, but that intermediate time, he could have very well had another, and 120K gp is nothing if not a drop in the bucket for a tyrant with an entire nation's gemstone mines below his feet. Also, what made this hilltop county so attractive, other than the massive negative energy crystal in area 9? Why not excavate that crystal and haul it back to the much more defensible Isle of Terror, where you hung out when still alive (and could generate infinite gold)?

How does one destroy an entire "site" while the greatest necromancer in history keeps regenerating there every 1d10 days to keep killing you? You cant, short of a Gormuz like nuke attack.


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If his phylactery is not in Gallowspire... couldn't he just destroy himself (or have one of his minions destroy him), so that he would regenerate outside of his prison?

Kind of lends credence to the idea that it's there.


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Imho, it pretty much has to be in there. I really can't see how they could hold him imprisoned in Gallowspire if it weren't. Perhaps I'm missing something about phylacteries, but I think that it's got to be in there with him to trap him this way.


Here's the thing, his phylactery may or may not be in Gallowspire. I don't think that's the issue. I think the issue at hand is that the Shield of Aroden was shattered, with the centerpiece embedded in his hand, right? Now, if his body was utterly destroyed, the centerpiece, the eye of aroden, so to speak, would be there on the ground where he fell, wouldn't it? They'd be able to reassemble the shield without any problem.

I don't think his body was destroyed. He was just weakened enough and either returned on his own volition to Gallowspire to heal up and regenerate or they took his body back there to seal him in. Why do I think this? The shard is still in his hand. They couldn't destroy him because they didn't know where his phylactery was, so instead they did the next best thing: keep him incapacitated and weak and locked away.

In my mind, it's kind of the only thing that makes sense really. Now, if you think about it like this, then it doesn't matter if his phylactery is in Gallowspire or not. His body was never destroyed, just consumed in fire and utterly weakened to a point where he was incapacitated.

Shadow Lodge

In Dungeons of Golarion (page 19, Level 5), it implies that tWT is (or had been) full awake and has a working body while locked away, but can neither teleport nor physically get past the Seal's power.

Phylacteries do not have to be present to rebuild a Lich, but the new body will rebuild near (undefined) the location of the Phylactery.


The Crusader wrote:

If his phylactery is not in Gallowspire... couldn't he just destroy himself (or have one of his minions destroy him), so that he would regenerate outside of his prison?

Kind of lends credence to the idea that it's there.

We have been (okay, I have been) debating this in my own game. I think the phylactery has to be within Gallowspire for the reason Crusader mentions above. If his phylactery is elsewhere he just has to destroy himself and be free of his prison.

I agree with the other analysis that suggests that TB was not fully destroyed during the episode with the shield, though. Probably contingency magic teleported him away in some form or fashion.

But I think TB is stuck in Gallowspire because of the magic placed upon the area and the fact that his phylactery must be down there, too. It is just hidden by Urgathoa so that others cannot teleport in (remember, you can port in but not out of GS) and destroy it in a scry and die scenario. My 2 cents at least.


Maybe Gallowspire is the only thing shielding him from a continuous torrent of divine holy fire. The shard of the shield has marked him in a way he cannot yet undo.


When (if) I ever get around to running it, I'm planning on running Gallowspire as a repainted this thing (which I own the physical copy of).

Most creatures would be converted to various undead, while Tar himself is at the end, unable to actually leave, bound to his phylactery and the seals.

Of course, the Seal's power seems not to be absolute...

Carrion Crown Continuing the Campaign segment, spoiler free, really:
Shadows of Gallowspire, pp 62-63 wrote:
Gildais (NE male winterwight): It’s said the Whispering Tyrant’s seneschal was hiding within the bowels of Gallowspire when his lord was defeated, having been locked away with Tar-Baphon and so many other horrors beneath the dreaded tower when at last it was sealed. Yet Gildais is not within Gallowspire. The cowardly scribe supposedly discovered some way past the seal locking away the Whispering Tyrant and many of his most infamous apprentices and lieutenants. Numerous parties—the Whispering Way, the Knights of Ozem, and agents of the Whispering Tyrant himself—track rumors of the elusive undead seneschal, the tales of a flaw in Gallowspire’s defense’s being too dire to leave uninvestigated. The threat of his master’s return might be enough to flush Gildais from centuries of hiding, along with knowledge of his secret backdoor into and out of Tar-Baphon’s prison.

Also, on the Cenotaph,

Carrion Crown Continuing the Campaign segment, spoiler free, really:
Shadows of Gallowspire, pg 62 wrote:
The Cenotaph: Not a creature but a mysterious ebon monument looming balefully over the southernmost arm of the Tusk Mountains in Belkzen, the Cenotaph is as the source of many ominous mysteries, its unbreachable gates having barred all entry since the fall of the Whispering Tyrant. Tellant Bacceren, an archaeologist in the employ of the University of Lepidstadt and recently returned from the mysterious site, reports that a minor earthquake shook the area, during which the Cenotaph’s gates shimmered like a mirage. Only a cloud of dust emerged before the quake ceased and the gates seemed solid once more, but several of her assistants claimed to see something small skittering swift and spiderlike through the haze, and later that day another assistant, Valent Locnave, disappeared.

I'm curious if anyone knows what that thing might be.


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I found this yesterday

Spoiler:
Before becoming a lich, the Whispering Tyrant was a powerful necromancer by the name Tar-Baphon. Though his origins are lost to time, it’s thought that he grew up on the shores of Lake Encarthan, where he first studied the necromantic arts. As his power grew, so did his ambition, eventually leading him to the Cenotaph, the resting place of the slumbering runelord of gluttony. After unlocking the powers of Zutha, Tar-Baphon gained power beyond that of mortals. He realized then that true greatness required bringing the world itself under his control—alive or dead, all would serve him.

Rather disturbing, but now adds more evil layers to my campaign plots

EDIT: It is from the Archives of Nethys site under mythic monsters and Tar-Baphon's entry


That's pretty much a direct quote from his entry in Mythic Realms.

It's also worth noting that the ideas that Tar followed in that spoiler you wrote are effectively the exact philosophy of the Whispering Way.

Also, linked so that people don't have to search frustrated as I did, because the Archives don't use his proper name in the title.

(The Archives are incredibly awesome, though.)
:)


The Crusader wrote:

If his phylactery is not in Gallowspire... couldn't he just destroy himself (or have one of his minions destroy him), so that he would regenerate outside of his prison?

Kind of lends credence to the idea that it's there.

Or it could be that's why he can't destroy himself. If Gallowspire is locking him up behind barriers that mortal magic can't break (the Seal), what happens when he dies and his phylactery tries to rebuild him? He can't leave Gallowspire, so what if that means he can't leave for any reason?


I'm not fluent on all the lore of the WT (in fact, there is a lot in this thread that is new to me), but I'm of the same mindset as Major_Blackhart.

In fact, I'm kind of wondering if T-B might not have been a certain Glutton even before his lichdom.


Hey, I got somebody on my side! Awesome!


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Oh it's fine as an alternate way to take things, if that's what you want to do. It just doesn't jive with the established canon very well. ^_^


Wonderful discussion going on here.

Alleran brings up another good point, perhaps the seals prevent him from destroying himself to circumvent them.


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Shadows of GallowSpire Spoiler:
"And so it was that Tar-Baphon was cast from the heights of Gallowspire, his smoldering body still clutching the sliver of the Shield of Aroden as his spirit retreated to his phylactery somewhere far beneath the dark tower."

~Carrion Crown, Shadows of Gallowspire. Page 6.

Just another bit of info I dug up today.

Grand Lodge

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WitchyTangles wrote:
Imho, it pretty much has to be in there. I really can't see how they could hold him imprisoned in Gallowspire if it weren't. Perhaps I'm missing something about phylacteries, but I think that it's got to be in there with him to trap him this way.

I always assumed that the Whispering Tyrant fell victim to his own trap. Hoisted by his own petard, so to speak. The Great Seal isn't really what is holding him in place (although it does a fine job of messing with him and keeping his minions away). The Great Seal and the lesser seals are a layer of protection, but they're also a shell game designed to keep the Whispering Way occupied so they focus their energy trying to break it and not the actual lock. And like any good shell game, the first trick is making your mark believe that the ball is actually under one of the cups. It helps that Aroden had three shills in the audience; Taldor, the Dwarves of Kraggodan, and the Knights of Ozem. And the best shills are the ones who don't know it. You get a more authentic reaction that way.

My theory is that the Tyrant is stuck in a trap he designed himself to hold Aroden, which explains why an insanely powerful "big bad of the campaign setting" mythic Lich who killed a demigod can't seem to bypass defenses set up by mortals he was easily defeating until they started carrying artifacts ... while his "no doubt impressive but not nearly as impressive as the Tyrant" seneschal, Gildais, did. Because Gildais doesn't have a piece of the Shield of Aroden stuck in his hand, tricking the Tyrant's ingenious trap into believing the Tyrant is Aroden. Because the Tyrant was the only person smart enough (and arrogant enough) to trap himself. And now the poor fellow has a splinter in his proverbial paw....

The theory started with the fact that Aroden didn't show up to fight the Whispering Tyrant in person, even though the Tyrant was actively trying to draw him out and even mutilated Aroden's herald (so he most certainly had Aroden's attention. You don't kill a god's herald without the god noticing).

The lack of appearance is rather unusual for Aroden, considering he was easily the most active and personally involved of the gods. He was leading heroes into the Abyss to kill Ibdurengian, and founding empires. Plus Aroden and the Tyrant had a good hero/nemesis relationship. Not showing up to fight him (especially after he humiliated and murdered Arazni) is ... baffling.

Yes, a lot of what Aroden did was back when he was a "living god" walking around the planet, but ascending into the heavens didn't stop him from stepping up. In fact, Aroden physically manifested in the world AFTER the Tyrant was defeated. The Shining Crusade went from 3754 until the 3827. Aroden physically showed up in 4433 to fight Deskari.

So why didn't Aroden show up for this fight? Because he knew the whole thing was a set-up for an even better trap than the one Tar-Baphon had laid for him on the Isle of Terror thousands of years ago.

City of Golden Death:

From any of the mountains’ peaks, one can look down into the heart of the Three Furies and see a valley of lush green wilderness, free of storms and drenched in sunlight, but with a void at its center—a dark hole in the ground, hundreds of feet across.

Called the Wizard-King’s Pit, this is the trap Tar-Baphon set for Aroden, the Last Azlanti, a trap that failed and caused the wizard’s own destruction. The void descends into the deepest recesses of the Darklands, where it touches a portal to the Negative Energy Plane. This portal, forever open, leaks negative energy to Golarion, causing the negative energy storms and occasionally erupting to create entire regions of the Negative Energy Plane right here on the Isle of Terror.

The mouth of the Wizard-King’s Pit constantly vomits forth a thick, 100-foot-wide maelstrom of spinning darkness that arcs up over the Three Furies and feeds the storms. The few explorers that have reached this hidden vale and lived describe the most horrible creatures imaginable living in that seemingly safe, lush valley. Its idyllic appearance is but an illusion—one that is deadly if believed.

Into the Darklands:

Well of Sorrows
The Isle of Terror, lying at the heart of Lake Encarthan has seen its share of events both tragic and portentous. Perhaps most famous of all was the duel where the Last Azlanti, Aroden, laid low the vile wizard-king Tar-Baphon. Less-known, however, is the insidious trap Tar-Baphon had laid for the Last Azlanti which failed to ensnare him. At the heart of the isle lies the Wizard-King’s Pit, a sizable dungeon complex constructed by Tar-Baphon and stocked with his allies and bestial servitors.

At the heart of it was the Well of Sorrows, an ornate shaft embossed with images of death and defeat. Here Tar-Baphon created an elaborate trap intended to capture and imprison Aroden in the depths. When Aroden failed to fall into the trap and prevented Tar-Baphon from fleeing into the dungeon, the wizard-king was defeated, and the trap lay unused.

So the Isle of Terror used to have a "thriving metropolis called Kestrillon, a shining beacon of magical research" on it that Tar-Baphon conquered. Not because cared about the city itself, but because he wanted to build a trap for Aroden nearby. It says Tar-Baphon constructed the "Wizard-King's Pit" but that name refers to both the trap and the dungeon complex. It doesn't necessarily mean he created the portal to the negative energy plane itself. He could have easily chose that site because a portal, or the beginnings of a portal, or whatever was already there. Which would explain why there was a metropolis of magical researchers already living there. He wanted the island for the same reason they did. He wanted to use whatever made that island magically special to create his trap.

I bold-faced some of the important elements to keep in mind when looking at Gallowspire.

Dungeons of Golarion:

Those who survived the invasion of orcs and the undead were swiftly forced into slavery and sent back into the depths. Yet instead of coaxing gems and tin from the deep, now came stubborn metals and dark stone, infused with the strange radiations of the vast depths.

The mines grew, cutting into the earth to depths never dared by the miners of Adorak. That which was dragged from the mines didn’t travel far, for nearly atop the mines rose the scaffolding for a terrible structure, a tower that would be both a throne for the Whispering Tyrant and a monument to his dark power.

Later in Dungeons of Golarion:

Level 9. The Black Caverns (CR 21): This level of the dungeon consists of a series of natural caverns, although the floors have been worked, smoothed down, and made easy to traverse—in some areas, actual worked-stone chambers expand the original chambers significantly.

A small underground lake dominates this level’s central cavern; a large black crystal rises from its depths to nearly reach the ceiling. This crystal and the surrounding caverns are a primary source of the necromantic power found in these caverns—the crystal itself is an extension of the Negative Material Plane protruding into the natural
world, and its existence here is in large part the reason the Whispering Tyrant chose this site for Gallowspire.

Notice any similarities between Gallowspire and the Wizard-King's Pit? He conquered a city so he'd have a place of operations to dig deep down into the earth at just the right spot so he could break into natural caverns and reach something with a connection to the Negative Material Plane. He used those mines to built a giant dungeon complex filled with his minions. And he tried to draw Aroden into it. There's even a naming similarity (First the Well of Sorrows. Later the Well of Tears).

(Maybe unrelated, but look at the top-down map of Xin-Grafar on page 15 of The City of Golden Death. Now look at the map of Adorak on page 48 of the Shadows of Gallowspire. Minus the molten gold, do they look a little similar?)

Also, how many people actually witnessed the Whispering Tyrant's defeat? The general who died, and the high priest who fashioned the Great Seal (with Aroden's help). The only first-hand description we have (from page 6 of the Shadows of Gallowspire, quoted by TheWarriorPoet above) was from a squire who may not have understood the extent of what was happening. So the idea that the Tyrant was pulled down because his Phylactery is there is unreliable narration. It's a (reasonable) assumption being made by people who knew they were fighting a lich who was just defeated, but who didn't necessarily know the backstory of the Tyrant's last conflict with Aroden.

And we don't know much about the Shield of Aroden, which is a major artifact with mysterious origins. You'd think a highly organized and active faith like Aroden's would have a better idea of where the Shield came from before it ended up in General Arnisant's (and the Tyrant's) hand. All we really know about the now entirely powerless artifact was that it blocked the Tyrant's magic, that it broke into 12 pieces (which was apparently a holy number for Aroden) and that when the Tyrant wished for Arnisant's heart, a piece of the shield went instead.

What if Aroden was playing on the Tyrant's arrogance the whole time? While the Tyrant was trying to draw Aroden out, Aroden was trying to maneuver this specially crafted artifict close enough to the Tyrant so that it could trigger the Tyrant's trap, without tipping his hand. The Tyrant crushed Aroden's herald, and he was going to crush his artifact carrying general. He didn't realize he'd been outsmarted until it was too late. The "holy fire" obscured what was actually the Tyrant's own magic keying in on the shard in his hand and ensnaring him, so everyone naturally credited the hero general and his artifact. Especially since the only witnesses were crusaders and evil minions in the middle of a climatic battle who probably didn't have the skill to understand what was happening magically under the best of circumstances. The best surviving witness was the High Priest of Aroden, who immediately credited the shield and made a fuss about this magical new Great Seal that Aroden had helped him make.

Add a few hundred years and a ton of people who believe that the Great Seal is the only thing holding back the Tyrant ... and where is a cultist going to focus his attention?

This also potentially gives an explanation as to how Aroden died. Because the Tyrant is pretty freaking smart too, and even though he's trapped he is now in possession of a shard of an artifact that is tied closely enough to Aroden to trigger the trap. Maybe it's a tiny little piece of him, but given time and nothing else to do it may have been enough for the Tyrant to hit back. The final result of their fight being a draw. Aroden dies, but the super-arrogant Tyrant is still trapped.


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The only thing I don't like about that theory is the idea that The Whispering Tyrant is so awesome that "A bunch of mortals couldn't outsmart or actually defeat him." That's deprotagonizing to the Shining Crusade in a way that just doesn't sit well.

Grand Lodge

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TheWarriorPoet519 wrote:
The only thing I don't like about that theory is the idea that The Whispering Tyrant is so awesome that "A bunch of mortals couldn't outsmart or actually defeat him." That's deprotagonizing to the Shining Crusade in a way that just doesn't sit well.

I didn't say the words you just quoted. But I do think it seems a little odd that a mythic lich isn't powerful or clever enough to get past a magical ward ... even though that's kind of what he does ... but his cowardly minion apparently is.

My theory does suggest that Aroden let a metric ton of people die in order to deflect attention away from his actual plans, and that he (along with, probably, his high priest) lied to his followers in order to keep up appearances. But I don't particularly have a problem with that. Aroden wasn't good, after all. And a lot more people probably would have died if Aroden had played by the Tyrant's rules and lost.

Besides, the Whispering Tyrant is a campaign ending mythical bad guy. I don't have a problem with him curbstomping demigods and an army. The important thing is that, in the very end, a small group of high level heroes (the general, the priest, etc) took advantage of the distraction provided by the armies dying around them to go toe-to-toe with the Whispering Tyrant. Most of them died and they didn't totally defeat him, because they are NPCs. Which means their sole reason for existing is to set up adventures for future, theoretical PCs.

The Whispering Tyrant is locked away in a dungeon, and the god he fought in ages past is dead. Which means he'll stay locked up until a DM is ready for a bunch of PCs to come along and outsmart/defeat him because no one else can do it.

As it should be.


Eh, it's probably just because I like the default story as presented, so adding all those layers of plots on top of it - while fine - is just a bit much for me. I don't have an issue with Tar-Baphon being simply trapped by very powerful mystic wards and his phylactery below with him (I like the idea that a mass of the Crusade's most powerful mages, while perhaps not mythic, had the power to work together and come up with something together that was capable of containing him,) so the theory just feels needlessly complicated to me.

But, C'est La Vie. Whatever works for your game, man. And the work shows.

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