Nefreet |
10 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
There's a FAQ that came out last month about Half-elves and Half-orcs that I have a question about for PFS:
Half-Elf or Half-Orc: Can a character of either of these races select human racial favored class options?
Yes. Half-elves and half-orcs may select racial favored class options, archetypes, traits, and so on, as if they were a full member of both races (a half-elf can select elf and human rules elements, a half-orc can select human and orc rules elements).
Now, as most PFSers know, racial feats, traits, spells, and archetypes found in the ARG are restricted to members of that race, as referenced here:
Note: Alternate racial traits, racial archetypes, racial evolutions, racial feats, and racial spells are only available for characters of the associated race.
The one thing I notice that is missing from this list is "racial favored class bonuses", such as a Half-elf Oracle taking the Elf favored class bonus of +1/2 level to one revelation (which is what my Oracle of Life would absolutely love to do).
I'd imagine, given the recentness of the FAQ, that racial favored class bonuses might be added to the list of restrictions set forth in the Additional Resources document, but I wanted to ask first. Wouldn't make much sense to restrict X, Y, and Z, but leave out Q.
RtrnofdMax |
I don't see a discrepancy. the Half races get their own racial favored bonus, no other race, not even Humans, has more than one per class, the half races shouldn't be any different.
What about a Human with Racial Heritage?
Whether it was the correct decision in your opinion or mine, the Dev's decided it wasn't worth finely delimiting what options the "half" races could gain from each of their halves. So they said, just take all of it.
Now, PFS has a houserule limiting ARG content. I believe (and am pretty sure I'm right) that this was done to limit access to Boon races. This makes the Boon more valuable if you can only use wonky race options with a valuable cert. What I don't think was envisioned is that this blanket houserule would prevent Core races from accessing content from other Core races.
With that in mind, I think the ARG text should be subtly changed so that all Core race content is open, but Featured and Uncommon race content still require a cert and being that exact race.
Nefreet |
With that in mind, I think the ARG text should be subtly changed so that all Core race content is open, but Featured and Uncommon race content still require a cert and being that exact race.
I tried looking for other threads discussing this. I would have posted elsewhere if I'd seen one already started. Do you have a link?
As it is now, with the current FAQ and no Additional Resources update, Half-elves (a Core Race) would only be choosing favored class bonuses from Humans or Elves (both also Core races), so if the "race restriction" clause was only put in place to protect the more exotic races, then no harm is done leaving it the way it is.
I'm fine either way, really, but I just leveled my Oracle yesterday and am playing again tonight, so I was checking to see if anyone had an answer. I think I'll assume it's kosher for now and add +1/2 for tonight (which won't effect gameplay) and if the Additional Resources is updated to disallow it I'll just redo whatever level bonuses I've accumulated.
CRobledo |
I think what Max is saying is that currently the AR document says:
Note: Alternate racial traits, racial archetypes, racial evolutions, racial feats, and racial spells are only available for characters of the associated race.
Your Half-elf Oracle is not an Elf (qualifies for elf and human stuff, but is not an Elf), and therefore is being limited by the Additional Resources note.
I can see both interpretations of the note happening.
Sniggevert |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think what Max is saying is that currently the AR document says:
AR wrote:Note: Alternate racial traits, racial archetypes, racial evolutions, racial feats, and racial spells are only available for characters of the associated race.Your Half-elf Oracle is not an Elf (qualifies for elf and human stuff, but is not an Elf), and therefore is being limited by the Additional Resources note.
I can see both interpretations of the note happening.
Correct. But what Nefreet is pointing out is that Favored Class options is not part of that bolded list...ergo, it should default back to general PF rules which he says would permit it (no idea if that's true or not).
RtrnofdMax |
Correct. But what Nefreet is pointing out is that Favored Class options is not part of that bolded list...ergo, it should default back to general PF rules which he says would permit it (no idea if that's true or not).
That may be the case, but it doesn't make any sense. I believe that the only thing that does make sense is opening all Core race options. As it stands now, PF rules say a HElf can take any Human or Elf option, and PFS says (apparently) HElfs can only take Human or Elf Favored Class options from the ARG. That can't be what Mike et al. intended.
Zahmahkibo |
Nice catch. It looks like FCBs are indeed available for hybrid races by the current rules. With the orc section of the ARG explicitly disallowed, half-orcs can only dip into human options, but those tend to be pretty darn good anyway.
I'd add that traits are also fair game, as the difference between 'racial traits' and 'race traits' has been firmly established.
Anyone was already able to dip into one race trait through Adopted, and you still can't get two cross-race traits due to the one-per-category limit.* Now, however, hybrid races can pick up human or elf traits without locking themselves out of the Social category or taking on the background fluff.
*There is one elf trait not listed in the race category, but it's banned in Additional Resources.
Name Violation |
I think what Max is saying is that currently the AR document says:
AR wrote:Note: Alternate racial traits, racial archetypes, racial evolutions, racial feats, and racial spells are only available for characters of the associated race.Your Half-elf Oracle is not an Elf (qualifies for elf and human stuff, but is not an Elf), and therefore is being limited by the Additional Resources note.
facepalm
tahts what ive been overlooking
THANK YOU
Nefreet |
It would be great to see this clarified. Having players spend favoured class bonuses beforehand means they could be burned by a technicality one way or another.
I would imagine that if favored class bonuses end up becoming restricted again that characters (like my Oracle) would be able to reassign them.
I mean, the FAQ was issued almost two months ago. Some characters are well into their adventuring career by now.
Mergy |
It's clearly hazy now. The intention of the ARG race restriction was to have each race's powers, feats, and abilities restricted to each race only. The FAQ hadn't happened yet, so there was no need to mention whether a favoured class bonus could only be taken by the specific race in the Additional Resources document.
I think that the intention is no, and it just hasn't been clarified yet.
Nefreet |
Want elf stuff? Play an elf. Want goblin stuff? Play a goblin. Get off my lawn!
I'm normally inclined to agree, but I made my Half-elf Oracle well before the FAQ. I was content to not be as powerful of a Channeler as an Aasimar. But when it became an option halfway through my career, why not jump on it?
If it gets changed back, or clarified, or whatever, I'll just reset to my prior contentedness, rather than the jubilee I'm experiencing now.
But it should be clarified soon, because some people are probably planning Half-elf characters around this mechanic, and they won't feel "content" if things get changed.
Chris Lambertz Digital Products Assistant |
Saint Caleth |
I think that the intention is no, and it just hasn't been clarified yet.
I agree, because no matter what the clarification to RAW is, the PFS house rules about additional resources have not changed, and a house rule trumps anything in RAW within the context of a specific campaign, so I would say that sadly most racial material remains strictly locked away based on race.
Deviston |
Uh, now I may be crazy, but here's a question.
Can a human (for example) take the Racial Heritage (Halfling) feat and be considered both human and halfling for gaining favored class bonuses with the Summoner, aka gaining 2 hit points for his eidolon per class level taken?
If: Racial Heritage makes you count as another race and human for all effects/elements/yadayada.
And: "The following favored class options are available to all characters of this race who have the listed favored class, and unless otherwise stated, the bonus applies each time you select the favored class reward."
Then: When the human (who counts as human) with the Racial Heritage (Halfling) feat takes a level of summoner, he gets the bonus as listed under "Favored Class Options" for both races as he meets the requirements under that entry.
Are there any rules that negate this?
Starglim |
Can a human (for example) take the Racial Heritage (Halfling) feat and be considered both human and halfling for gaining favored class bonuses with the Summoner, aka gaining 2 hit points for his eidolon per class level taken?
If: Racial Heritage makes you count as another race and human for all effects/elements/yadayada.
And: "The following favored class options are available to all characters of this race who have the listed favored class, and unless otherwise stated, the bonus applies each time you select the favored class reward."
I suspect you mean 2 skill ranks.
If he's a human, the human favored class bonus is available to him. If he's a halfling, the halfling favored class bonus is available to him. Each level, he either selects one of them, or one of the standard favored class bonus options.
Deviston |
Oh I see, and no, I actually meant Gnome and 2 hit points. But yeah, you get what I meant. I had halflings on the brain.
I guess I should have known that since you can't take an alternate favored class bonus AND the base +1 hp/skill point. Dang, thought I stumbled upon something quite nice. Oh well!
kinevon |
Oh I see, and no, I actually meant Gnome and 2 hit points. But yeah, you get what I meant. I had halflings on the brain.
I guess I should have known that since you can't take an alternate favored class bonus AND the base +1 hp/skill point. Dang, thought I stumbled upon something quite nice. Oh well!
And I think it would get banned, even though, technically, it might be possible, using that Human feat that allows you to choose two FCBs each level...
Deviston |
VIA home rules yeah you are correct, however RAW I sadly think not because the feat of which you speak specifically refers to the +1 to hp/skill points. AND it states you get both, not one or the other and an alternate favored class bonus. Actually, I read another thread where they figured it out to mean "you either get both +1's or an alternate favored class bonus, not a combination of the above".
After reading their explanation, and rereading the feat, I tend to agree even though I really don't want to haha
Matthew Morris RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8 |
ArmouredMonk13 |
Oh I see, and no, I actually meant Gnome and 2 hit points. But yeah, you get what I meant. I had halflings on the brain.
I guess I should have known that since you can't take an alternate favored class bonus AND the base +1 hp/skill point. Dang, thought I stumbled upon something quite nice. Oh well!
Well, if you are a human, you can take fast learner and take 2 FCB's, and presumably 2 different racial FCB's, assuming that you had racial heritage.
Mergy |
Deviston wrote:Well, if you are a human, you can take fast learner and take 2 FCB's, and presumably 2 different racial FCB's, assuming that you had racial heritage.Oh I see, and no, I actually meant Gnome and 2 hit points. But yeah, you get what I meant. I had halflings on the brain.
I guess I should have known that since you can't take an alternate favored class bonus AND the base +1 hp/skill point. Dang, thought I stumbled upon something quite nice. Oh well!
Fast Learner is limited to either +1 to skills and hp OR another favoured class bonus. No mixing and matching.
Matthew Morris RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8 |
ArmouredMonk13 wrote:Fast Learner is limited to either +1 to skills and hp OR another favoured class bonus. No mixing and matching.Deviston wrote:Well, if you are a human, you can take fast learner and take 2 FCB's, and presumably 2 different racial FCB's, assuming that you had racial heritage.Oh I see, and no, I actually meant Gnome and 2 hit points. But yeah, you get what I meant. I had halflings on the brain.
I guess I should have known that since you can't take an alternate favored class bonus AND the base +1 hp/skill point. Dang, thought I stumbled upon something quite nice. Oh well!
I remember people asking if that was RAI, as it made it a substandard feat. (worse than toughness, unless you wanted the skill point, hit point, planned to stay in the class until 20 and wanted toughness.)
Michael Brock Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator |
Matthew Morris RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8 |
Interesting that people ask if a feat is RAI if perceived as substandard, but RAW when overpowered.
It is interesting. :-)
As I remember the discussion, it was if it was meant to allow +1sp/+1HP or +1/other FRC because of the bit I mentioned above. I think (again, relying on gouda for memory here) the concern/question was if it was missed/changed in a pass. Think of the prone shooter debates.
That said, have you reached a decision on the FCB question, Mr. Brock?
Michael Brock Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator |
Matthew Morris RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8 |
BigNorseWolf |
ArmouredMonk13 wrote:Fast Learner is limited to either +1 to skills and hp OR another favoured class bonus. No mixing and matching.Deviston wrote:Well, if you are a human, you can take fast learner and take 2 FCB's, and presumably 2 different racial FCB's, assuming that you had racial heritage.Oh I see, and no, I actually meant Gnome and 2 hit points. But yeah, you get what I meant. I had halflings on the brain.
I guess I should have known that since you can't take an alternate favored class bonus AND the base +1 hp/skill point. Dang, thought I stumbled upon something quite nice. Oh well!
That's one that gets argued all the time. English simply isn't precise enough to definitively say, and it was changed from what the author turned in.
With the more permissive reading it is marginally better than toughness (as it should be, given it has 2 requirements). With the less permissive reading it is objectively worse.
Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
Adam Mogyorodi wrote:ArmouredMonk13 wrote:Fast Learner is limited to either +1 to skills and hp OR another favoured class bonus. No mixing and matching.Deviston wrote:Well, if you are a human, you can take fast learner and take 2 FCB's, and presumably 2 different racial FCB's, assuming that you had racial heritage.Oh I see, and no, I actually meant Gnome and 2 hit points. But yeah, you get what I meant. I had halflings on the brain.
I guess I should have known that since you can't take an alternate favored class bonus AND the base +1 hp/skill point. Dang, thought I stumbled upon something quite nice. Oh well!
That's one that gets argued all the time. English simply isn't precise enough to definitively say, and it was changed from what the author turned in.
With the more permissive reading it is its marginally better than toughness (as it should be, given it has 2 requirements). With the less permissive reading it is objectively worse.
Actually, it's inferior to Toughness, assuming you're going for the hit points.
For a feat, you can get the FC hit points, and another FC benefit.
Or, for a Feat, you can get +3 hp at level 1, automatically becoming +1/level at 4+, and this applies even if you multi-class. You then use your FC for ANOTHER benefit.
This is only worth it for the pure hit points if you are going to Stack it with Toughness. Otherwise, take Toughness.
==Aelryinth
Matthew Morris RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8 |
Hey guys, any thoughts on this yet? Holiday weekend is over and you'll should be back. Have a character I need to figure out if I can make him a half-elf or if he's stuck being an Aasmir.
Patience my young apprentice. Make him a half elf, not every character needs every advantage. :-)
The Morphling |
Under A Bleeding Sun wrote:Hey guys, any thoughts on this yet? Holiday weekend is over and you'll should be back. Have a character I need to figure out if I can make him a half-elf or if he's stuck being an Aasmir.Patience my young apprentice. Make him a half elf, not every character needs every advantage. :-)
Not every character needs to forego optimization, either. Some of us enjoy specializing in certain class mechanics in our builds, and that doesn't make us munchkins.