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In a related question, I started another thread here. Specifically looking for how Boon Companion and the Robe of Arcane Heritage would interact with regards to Animal Companion level for a Sylvan sorcerer. I'd like to avoid having to rebuild my AC on the fly depending on what a particular GM's answer is.
Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Columbus
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My problem as a GM has never been the dps of characters. It has always been the tower shield fighters with 40+ AC who can give a lot of that ac bonus to their allies and who also get to apply that full shield bonus (can get above 10) to their touch ac also
too many people are making tanks that can't even be hit by the monsters in a scenario (not even the touch ac) you would need 24's or better on a dice to hit them and need 18 or 19s to hit anyone within 10 feet of them
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My problem as a GM has never been the dps of characters. It has always been the tower shield fighters with 40+ AC who can give a lot of that ac bonus to their allies and who also get to apply that full shield bonus (can get above 10) to their touch ac also
too many people are making tanks that can't even be hit by the monsters in a scenario (not even the touch ac) you would need 24's or better on a dice to hit them and need 18 or 19s to hit anyone within 10 feet of them
See HERE.
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Favored Class Bonus for Half-Elves and Half-Orcs
For the purpose of qualifying for favored class bonuses, half-elves are also treated as both elves and humans, and half-orcs are also treated as humans (but not orcs)—a byproduct of their respective elf blood and orc blood racial traits. Only characters that have the elf blood or orc blood racial trait count as a member of another race for this purpose.Do I get to rebuild?
An aasimar or elf affected by this change may freely change her race, favored class point assignments, and any character options (e.g. feats, race-specific spells and archetypes, etc.) dependent on being a member of that race.I understand that some folks may only be playing an aasimar or elf because of the extraordinarily potent favored class bonuses. This change may have made some of those favored class bonus assignments redundant or illegal. Perhaps this “ruins” your character and you want to reconsider your race choice. I’m fine with you changing these things. Everything else (e.g. mystery, revelations, non-race-specific archetype, ability scores, etc.) follows the retraining rules printed in Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Campaign.
Why aren't half-orcs also getting the opportunity to rebuild? Since favored class bonuses are one of the few things that can't be retrained, shouldn't half-orcs get this same one-time chance based on this clarification? Maybe the human favored class bonus is better than the extra hit point or skill point or whatever else was taken? Seems unfair to leave only half-orcs out (assuming that half-elves are considered elves and count as elves for this purpose). Seems only fair to give everyone affected by this change/clarification the same chance to rebuild.
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Why aren't half-orcs also getting the opportunity to rebuild? Since favored class bonuses are one of the few things that can't be retrained, shouldn't half-orcs get this same one-time chance based on this clarification? Maybe the human favored class bonus is better than the extra hit point or skill point or whatever else was taken? Seems unfair to leave only half-orcs out (assuming that half-elves are considered elves and count as elves for this purpose). Seems only fair to give everyone affected by this change/clarification the same chance to rebuild.Favored Class Bonus for Half-Elves and Half-Orcs
For the purpose of qualifying for favored class bonuses, half-elves are also treated as both elves and humans, and half-orcs are also treated as humans (but not orcs)—a byproduct of their respective elf blood and orc blood racial traits. Only characters that have the elf blood or orc blood racial trait count as a member of another race for this purpose.Do I get to rebuild?
An aasimar or elf affected by this change may freely change her race, favored class point assignments, and any character options (e.g. feats, race-specific spells and archetypes, etc.) dependent on being a member of that race.I understand that some folks may only be playing an aasimar or elf because of the extraordinarily potent favored class bonuses. This change may have made some of those favored class bonus assignments redundant or illegal. Perhaps this “ruins” your character and you want to reconsider your race choice. I’m fine with you changing these things. Everything else (e.g. mystery, revelations, non-race-specific archetype, ability scores, etc.) follows the retraining rules printed in Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Campaign.
Because the rebuild is being triggered off of the elf/aasimar oracle fcb being erattad and not half-elves and half-orcs getting more fcbs.
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So the rebuild is specific only to oracles? Okay, if you're only allowing the rebuild based on the characters now being illegal under the new clarification, then I can accept this although this further clarification should probably be added. But if it's just about the characters being negatively impacted, then I think any sorcerer would disagree, given that having more spells known will always be much more useful and effective than having a few more hit points, skill points, or what have you. There are probably other cases I can't think of off-hand where the human bonus is preferable.
EDIT: I should clarify that I'm not talking about a complete rebuild, just the one-time opportunity to re-select favored class bonuses based on race, which does not seem to be permitted at all in the current draft.
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So the rebuild is specific only to oracles? Okay, if you're only allowing the rebuild based on the characters now being illegal under the new clarification, then I can accept this although this further clarification should probably be added. But if it's just about the characters being negatively impacted, then I think any sorcerer would disagree, given that having more spells known will always be much more useful and effective than having a few more hit points, skill points, or what have you. There are probably other cases I can't think of off-hand where the human bonus is preferable.
EDIT: I should clarify that I'm not talking about a complete rebuild, just the one-time opportunity to re-select favored class bonuses based on race, which does not seem to be permitted at all in the current draft.
They have never given a rebuild to take advantage of new options opening up, which is the case with half-elf/half-orcs.
They permit limited rebuilds when options that have been taken are changed (such as the FCB for aasimar oracles).
In the case of the half-elf sorceror, the +1 HP and +1 skill point FCB options have not been changed, so no rebuilding is permitted for those that chose those options during character leveling.
I was looking to see what I could get out of a melee/Mr. Hyde half-orc alchemist for Pathfinder Society, and was briefly excited when I saw the Orc Favored Class bonus of +10 minutes to mutagen duration. I'm glad I looked up if this kind of thing was legal, and unfortunately it is not.
I can still get the Human Favored Class Option of learning an extra formula, which is a pretty darn good consolation prize. I guess the Enduring Mutagen trait is really worthwhile.
The problem is that to raise a sub optimal companion to effectiveness you can do one of two things.
1. Apply a specific boost to the set of sub optimal companions to bring them up to par with the super optimal creatures. Then both sets are fun to play.
2. Create a boost that makes all companions more powerful, this is what the FCB did. By it's very nature, if this method makes a sub optimal companion viable, it makes a super optimal companion overpowering.
I feel like the complaint that without this you can't make make a suboptimal companion viable, is like the complaint that there needs to be a FCB that lets you add +1 / two levels to your attack damage, because without it, you can't play a viable character who hits people with a riding crop, and you have a great character idea for a guy who fights using only a riding crop.
There is a third and fourth option.
Three, set specific values/abilities independent of the base creature instead adding modifiers to current values (I.E. set a str bonus to +3, weaker creatures find this a good boost, but stronger creatures gain no benefit)
Fourth, use diminishing returns based on the current values of the creature instead of adding values independent of the creatures stats. (I.E. "add [10 minus str bonus] to stat" thus stronger creatures gain less benefit then weaker creatures.)
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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3 is basically an attempt to do 1 (apply a specific boost that raises only the sub optimal creatures.) Only defining sub optimal creatures (creatures with a str bonus of less than +3) so widely that you are going to improve some of the superoptimal creatures at the same time.
Lets look at it. We have now boosted every creature that has a low strength. That means all the creature that traded away strength to get high dex, we have taken away their main weakness, and made them more OP than before.
If you do that to all the stats, then any creature that traded away stats for special abilities is now rewarded by being made even more OP.
4, does the same thing but splits the difference between 1 and 2.
In either course, you are moving toward either "all ACs have the same stats." or you are moving towards a gurps like point buy AC construction system. (and while I like GURPS quite well, I don't really think PF is going to move toward that direction.)
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Related Point: Can I apply the aasimar or elf oracle's favored class bonus to a revelation I do not yet have? Can I do so for the aasimar bard’s favored class bonus?
No, when choosing which class feature’s effective level to increase, you can only select a feature that you already have. For example, an aasimar flame oracle cannot choose to improve the wings of fire revelation with her favored class bonus until she actually gains the revelation at 7th level or beyond; she could not start augmenting it at 1st level.
Distantly related question:
FCB for, say, Human Rogue: +1/6 Rogue Talent.
Can this be taken at first level, before the Rogue gets his first Rogue Talent?
I am fairly sure this should be "Yes.", but not 100%. ;)
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Related Point: Can I apply the aasimar or elf oracle's favored class bonus to a revelation I do not yet have? Can I do so for the aasimar bard’s favored class bonus?
No, when choosing which class feature’s effective level to increase, you can only select a feature that you already have. For example, an aasimar flame oracle cannot choose to improve the wings of fire revelation with her favored class bonus until she actually gains the revelation at 7th level or beyond; she could not start augmenting it at 1st level.Distantly related question:
FCB for, say, Human Rogue: +1/6 Rogue Talent.
Can this be taken at first level, before the Rogue gets his first Rogue Talent?I am fairly sure this should be "Yes.", but not 100%. ;)
No...you do not have the Rogue Talent class feature until 2nd level, so you can not augment it until then.
Developer
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No...you do not have the Rogue Talent class feature until 2nd level, so you can not augment it until then.Related Point: Can I apply the aasimar or elf oracle's favored class bonus to a revelation I do not yet have? Can I do so for the aasimar bard’s favored class bonus?
No, when choosing which class feature’s effective level to increase, you can only select a feature that you already have. For example, an aasimar flame oracle cannot choose to improve the wings of fire revelation with her favored class bonus until she actually gains the revelation at 7th level or beyond; she could not start augmenting it at 1st level.Distantly related question:
FCB for, say, Human Rogue: +1/6 Rogue Talent.
Can this be taken at first level, before the Rogue gets his first Rogue Talent?I am fairly sure this should be "Yes.", but not 100%. ;)
That said, it's a consequence I did not have in mind when talking to the Design Team. I might be able to check with them about it tomorrow.
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Oddly, this question has come up quite a bit lately.
No, you cannot choose an alternate Favored Class Bonus until you possess the feature it modifies.
Same goes for feats that interact with class features. A Paladin could not take Extra Lay on Hands at 1st level, either.
EDIT: wow, double ninja'd =(
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John, that's the answer I (and many others) have been giving since you initially responded with this FAQ.
I've actually quoted you many times, come to think of it.
We had quite a few Barbarians, Rogues, and Oracles in our area that we told had to retrain, to fall in line with that ruling.
If there's going to be a reversal, it'll probably have to be one of those "FAQs of opportunity" that Mark Seifter jokes about.
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Designer
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If we did a FAQ, it'd be possible to separate out gaining a fraction of a new thing you don't have any of yet from modifying something you don't have.
For instance, with this hypothetical FAQ, gaining 1/6th of a revelation and then using that to at level 7 pick up a revelation that requires level 7 would be fine, but giving yourself bonuses preemptively with the revelation you don't have yet wouldn't.
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I think that Nefreet is saying it might be better to leave the cat in the bag at this point. You made a decision, and people have already adjusted characters to comply. Best to stick with it and be more clear in the future.
I agree with Mystic.
It maybe unintended, but if you open this up it will just muddy the waters from a fairly clear, if not preferred, stand point.
I've posted elsewhere the very large number of favoured class bonuses that aren't legal at level one (or for several levels after that) if one reads the Oracle FAQ as disallowing taking the fractional FCBs until you get your first one from levels. I've never had much of an opinion on whether it was intended for that FAQ to have such wide ranging effects, mainly because I've never cared much for the FAQ in the first place. I'd like to see it reversed, but barring that, it'd be nice to at least see it constrained in scope somewhat.
1/3 to the effective level of the Superstitious Rage Power, or the Surprise Accuracy Rage Power
1/4 level to blood sanctuary
1/4 level to banner bonus (except for the Standard Bearer archetype, in which case all of the mount-affecting FCBs would be illegal instead)
1/4 to the Nimble bonus for a gunslinger
1/4 times per day changed teamwork feat
1/3 to crit confirms while using studied combat (This one you could actually get to 1 1/3 by the level when it would be functional)
1/4 ki point
1/2 effective Oracle level for one revelation
1/4 AC bonus from spells (if you don't have any spells known that grant an AC bonus)
1 hp healed by lay on hands (self only)
1/2 hp healed or inflicted by lay on hands
1/2 to trap sense for stone traps
+1 concentration when casting paladin spells (don't have any at first)
1/4 to Aura of Courage & Aura of Resolve bonuses
various animal companion boosts for Rangers
5' hex range
1/4 to the Well Versed bonus
1/3 to crit confirms while sneak attacking
1/2 to caster level for purposes of range with water spells (if you don't know any spells with the water descriptor)
1/2 fire damage with fire spells (if you don't know any fire spells)
1/4 caster level of good spells (if you don't know any Good spells)
1/2 negative energy damage with negative energy damage spells (if you don't know any)
+1/2 to acid and earth spell or spell-like ability damage (actually, this one is written oddly; it's missing some important words)
1/2 a point of energy damage to one type of energy spells (again, if you don't know any of the chosen element)
1/2 a point of damage to any Shadow spells (ifyoudon'tknowany)
+1/2 to channelled energy for certain targets
+1/3 damage with channelled energy
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Venture-Captain, Massachusetts—Central & West
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I've posted elsewhere the very large number of favoured class bonuses that aren't legal at level one (or for several levels after that) if one reads the Oracle FAQ as disallowing taking the fractional FCBs until you get your first one from levels. I've never had much of an opinion on whether it was intended for that FAQ to have such wide ranging effects, mainly because I've never cared much for the FAQ in the first place. I'd like to see it reversed, but barring that, it'd be nice to at least see it constrained in scope somewhat.
** spoiler omitted **...
What makes you say that? You get your FCB for gaining a level in your Favored class. You should have your first level before gaining the FCB, so many of those would seem to be legal, no?
Whenever a character gains a level in his favored class, he receives either + 1 hit point or + 1 skill rank. The choice of favored class cannot be changed once the character is created, and the choice of gaining a hit point or a skill rank each time a character gains a level (including his first level) cannot be changed once made for a particular level. Prestige classes (see Prestige Classes) can never be a favored class.
EDIT: ... actually, I could see the confusion.
I worded that paragraph poorly. I meant to indicate that many alternate favoured class bonuses grant fractional increases to features you don't have at first level, or extras of bonus feats / powers / whatever that you also don't get at first level. A strict reading of the Oracle FAQ means that a very large number of FCBs can't be chosen at level one, so the character has to take the hit point or skill point.
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There is at least one item on your list that is not illegal, just very limited in application at 1st level, the 1/2 effective Oracle level for one revelation, but it can only be used for the revelation you take at first level.
So, for example, an Oracle of Life, with the Channel Energy revelation, could start taking it immediately to affect their Channel Energy ability.
The FAQ just says that you cannot take it for a revelation you have not yet taken.
There is at least one item on your list that is not illegal, just very limited in application at 1st level, the 1/2 effective Oracle level for one revelation, but it can only be used for the revelation you take at first level.
Fair point kinevon. The list was kinda hastily put together a while back for a semi-related thread and I was well into it before I realized that it was kind of a mess in general.
The FAQ just says that you cannot take it for a revelation you have not yet taken.
I think that that's all they intended it to say as well - I wouldn't even mind the FAQ so much if that's all it did. But it makes so many other fractional FCBs arguably illegal at level one that it just irritates me. Having to take the same FCB six levels in a row - which for games like mine means getting absolutely no benefit for a year or more of actual game time - is hard enough without being told that you can't actually start doing that until level six.
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That said, it's a consequence I did not have in mind when talking to the Design Team. I might be able to check with them about it tomorrow.No...you do not have the Rogue Talent class feature until 2nd level, so you can not augment it until then.Related Point: Can I apply the aasimar or elf oracle's favored class bonus to a revelation I do not yet have? Can I do so for the aasimar bard’s favored class bonus?
No, when choosing which class feature’s effective level to increase, you can only select a feature that you already have. For example, an aasimar flame oracle cannot choose to improve the wings of fire revelation with her favored class bonus until she actually gains the revelation at 7th level or beyond; she could not start augmenting it at 1st level.Distantly related question:
FCB for, say, Human Rogue: +1/6 Rogue Talent.
Can this be taken at first level, before the Rogue gets his first Rogue Talent?I am fairly sure this should be "Yes.", but not 100%. ;)
This ruling seems to conflict with the example posted in the ARG.
For example, a dwarf with rogue as his favored class adds +1/2 to his trap sense ability regarding stone traps each time he selects the alternate rogue favored class benefit; though this means the net effect is +0 after selecting it once (because +1/2 rounds down to +0), after 20 levels this benefit gives the dwarf a +10 bonus to his trap sense (in addition to the base value from being a 20th-level rogue).
This clearly enhances a class feature that the dwarf rouge does not have yet, Trap Sense. Yet the example shows the rogue taking the FCB 20 times, which would be illegal with the current ruling.
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Favored Class Bonus for Half-Elves and Half-Orcs
For the purpose of qualifying for favored class bonuses, half-elves are also treated as both elves and humans, and half-orcs are also treated as humans (but not orcs)—a byproduct of their respective elf blood and orc blood racial traits. Only characters that have the elf blood or orc blood racial trait count as a member of another race for this purpose.Related Point: Can I apply the aasimar or elf oracle's favored class bonus to a revelation I do not yet have? Can I do so for the aasimar bard’s favored class bonus?
No, when choosing which class feature’s effective level to increase, you can only select a feature that you already have. For example, an aasimar flame oracle cannot choose to improve the wings of fire revelation with her favored class bonus until she actually gains the revelation at 7th level or beyond; she could not start augmenting it at 1st level.
Related Point: Can I have an 18th-level animal companion at level 12?
A character’s effective druid level for determining the abilities of her animal companion (based on Table 3–8 on page 52 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook) cannot increase her animal companion’s Hit Dice above her actual character level + 1. An animal companion receives no additional abilities for its level unless it has the requisite number of Hit Dice; a character can increase her effective druid level further, though these effective levels do not grant any benefit until the character’s actual level increases. For example, a 12th-level aasimar oracle with the nature mystery and the bonded mount revelation could theoretically have an “18th-level” animal companion; however, her animal companion would only be “16th-level” for all abilities because the animal could not have more than 13 Hit Dice....
Sorry for necroing this thread.
The post above was a year ago, so have the above points appeared in an FAQ as mentioned?I'm asking, as I'm looking around the faq and the additional resources and can't seem to find any FAQ entry or notes in the additional resources page under Advanced Race Guide.
Specifically the note under the "Related Point: Can I have an 18th-level animal companion at level 12?" which stated that "The above information will be included in an FAQ entry, and a note will appear in the Additional Resources entry for Pathfinder RPG Advanced Race Guide."
Having a player asking about how his half-elf lunar oracle works with leveling his animal companion. Would be great to know it this has been clarified.
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Sorry for necroing this thread.
The post above was a year ago, so have the above points appeared in an FAQ as mentioned?
I'm asking, as I'm looking around the faq and the additional resources and can't seem to find any FAQ entry or notes in the additional resources page under Advanced Race Guide.Specifically the note under the "Related Point: Can I have an 18th-level animal companion at level 12?" which stated that "The above information will be included in an FAQ entry, and a note will appear in the Additional Resources entry for Pathfinder RPG Advanced Race Guide."
Having a player asking about how his half-elf lunar oracle works with leveling his animal companion. Would be great to know it this has been clarified.
It works exactly as outlined in the post. While it has not been FAQ'd, this is still binding. So, the lunar oracle would be capped on his companion if he used the elven racial trait for the animal companion revelation. If he went full into oracle and as much as possible into that revelation, it would go like so:
Level 1 - 2 HD companion (Counts as level 1 druid)
Level 2 - 3 HD companion (Counts as level 3 druid)
Level 3 - 4 HD companion (Counts as level 4 druid)
Level 4 - 5 HD companion (Counts as level 5 druid, would be 6 without cap)
Level 5 - 6 HD companion (Counts as level 7 druid)
Level 6 - 7 HD companion (Counts as level 8 druid, would be 9 without cap)
Level 7 - 8 HD companion (Counts as level 9 druid, would be 10 without cap)
Level 8 - 9 HD companion (Counts as level 11 druid, would be 12 without cap)
Level 9 - 10 HD companion (Counts as level 12 druid, would be 13 without cap)
Level 10 - 11 HD companion (Counts as level 13 druid, would be 15 without cap)
Level 11 - 12 HD companion (Counts as level 15 druid, would be 16 without cap)
Level 12 - 13 HD companion (Counts as level 16 druid, would be 18 without cap)
Level 13 - 14 HD companion (Counts as level 17 druid, would be 19 without cap)
Level 14 - 15 HD companion (Counts as level 19 druid, would be 21 (really 20, though) without cap)
Level 15+, it doesn't matter because the animal companion class feature is capping itself at that point.
(FYI, ideal levels for not taking the elven FCB for revelation: 3, 6, 9, 12, and 15)
As a note, a multiclass lunar or nature oracle using the elven favored class bonus with a 1 level dip early in another class will never hit the cap as described in this post.