Greater Feint Clarification

[Felgoroth]

So, I'm about to start playing a Charlatan Rogue and plan on taking Improved Feint to sneak attack more often in combat and my brother suggested that I take Greater Feint when I get the chance so I can deal sneak attack damage when I full attack. Well, I read Greater Feint and was wondering if there was an errata to it or if my brother misread it. Greater Feint says "Whenever you use feint to cause an opponent to lose his Dexterity bonus, he loses that bonus until the beginning of your next turn, in addition to losing his Dexterity bonus against your next attack."

From that I gather that it helps you sneak attack with attacks of opportunity from that enemy (at least I think so) and that the enemy loses his Dexterity bonus against your allies? I think my brother assumed that the enemy lost their Dexterity bonus until the end of your next turn, so you could feint, deal sneak attack with one attack, wait for your turn, then full attack and deal sneak attack damage. However, with the way it's worded, I assume you cannot do that.

[ryric]

Felgoroth wrote:

So, I'm about to start playing a Charlatan Rogue and plan on taking Improved Feint to sneak attack more often in combat and my brother suggested that I take Greater Feint when I get the chance so I can deal sneak attack damage when I full attack. Well, I read Greater Feint and was wondering if there was an errata to it or if my brother misread it. Greater Feint says "Whenever you use feint to cause an opponent to lose his Dexterity bonus, he loses that bonus until the beginning of your next turn, in addition to losing his Dexterity bonus against your next attack."

From that I gather that it helps you sneak attack with attacks of opportunity from that enemy (at least I think so) and that the enemy loses his Dexterity bonus against your allies? I think my brother assumed that the enemy lost their Dexterity bonus until the end of your next turn, so you could feint, deal sneak attack with one attack, wait for your turn, then full attack and deal sneak attack damage. However, with the way it's worded, I assume you cannot do that.

You have it correct and your brother misremembered. It is still very useful in a "team-player" sense due to removing Dex bonus vs. everyone. Lots of higher level foes can have 4-8+ points of Dex bonus to AC.

It is also very nice is you have a way to gain an extra standard action on your turn - hero points, PF chronicler PrC, etc. Use the extra action to feint then full attack with the rest of your turn.

[Felgoroth]

That's what I'd thought. Thank you. I still may take it to help out the party but, it's more likely I won't take it at the first opportunity I could and wait until I have other feats taken care of first (especially considering my character is slightly more social based than combat focused).

[Jiggy]

One option you might consider if you want Sneak Attack on your full-attacks (if Ultimate Combat is available in your game) is a one-level dip in Maneuver Master Monk. You can take Improved Dirty Trick as a bonus feat without prereqs (yay!) and more importantly, can tack it onto your full-attack routine for free. (For anyone but a Maneuver Master, performing a Dirty Trick is always a standard action.) Start your attack routine with said maneuver, and if it succeeds, you blind them. Your remaining attack(s) will then get Sneak Attack.

It's tricky, though: the extra hit to BAB hurts, and if you're going Finesse in order to compensate, you have to take both Weapon Finesse AND Agile Maneuvers, because Dirty Trick isn't a weapon-based maneuver and therefore won't benefit from Weapon Finesse (barring a little GM charity, of course).

It's a heavy investment and comes with some drawbacks, but I thought I'd toss it out there for you just in case. :)

[Felgoroth]

Jiggy wrote:

One option you might consider if you want Sneak Attack on your full-attacks (if Ultimate Combat is available in your game) is a one-level dip in Maneuver Master Monk. You can take Improved Dirty Trick as a bonus feat without prereqs (yay!) and more importantly, can tack it onto your full-attack routine for free. (For anyone but a Maneuver Master, performing a Dirty Trick is always a standard action.) Start your attack routine with said maneuver, and if it succeeds, you blind them. Your remaining attack(s) will then get Sneak Attack.

It's tricky, though: the extra hit to BAB hurts, and if you're going Finesse in order to compensate, you have to take both Weapon Finesse AND Agile Maneuvers, because Dirty Trick isn't a weapon-based maneuver and therefore won't benefit from Weapon Finesse (barring a little GM charity, of course).

It's a heavy investment and comes with some drawbacks, but I thought I'd toss it out there for you just in case. :)

I am finesse-ing but I don't really feel like I need to full round sneak attack each round. I can move into flanking for things like that, I really just took Improved Feint because my character is literally based around Bluff and I figured it would save me from having to sneak up on people or move into flanking for sneak attack otherwise. I've only got one attack right now as it is, I was just looking into feats for the future. I'll probably be taking Extra Rogue Talent a lot.

[Krico]

If you have greater feint and two-weapon feint, you can trade you're highest BAB primary weapon attack for a feint check and they lose their dex bonus until you're next turn. So for the cost of three feats and one attack per round, you can get the rest of your attacks with your sneak attack damage.

Edit: I guess technically 4 feats for two weapon fighting but eh. If you're a rouge chances are you're not two handing or sword and bording anyway.

[JustynThyme]

Felgoroth wrote:

So, I'm about to start playing a Charlatan Rogue and plan on taking Improved Feint to sneak attack more often in combat and my brother suggested that I take Greater Feint when I get the chance so I can deal sneak attack damage when I full attack. Well, I read Greater Feint and was wondering if there was an errata to it or if my brother misread it. Greater Feint says "Whenever you use feint to cause an opponent to lose his Dexterity bonus, he loses that bonus until the beginning of your next turn, in addition to losing his Dexterity bonus against your next attack."

From that I gather that it helps you sneak attack with attacks of opportunity from that enemy (at least I think so) and that the enemy loses his Dexterity bonus against your allies? I think my brother assumed that the enemy lost their Dexterity bonus until the end of your next turn, so you could feint, deal sneak attack with one attack, wait for your turn, then full attack and deal sneak attack damage. However, with the way it's worded, I assume you cannot do that.

I am making a Ninja backup character, and I came across this thread. I know it's been over a year, but I wanted to point out that your brother is correct, just in case other people find this thread and have the same question we had. I checked the FAQ and the combined errata from first printing through the sixth, and there have been no changes to Greater Feint on page 125, nor to the Feint description on page 201, since the first printing of the Core Rulebook, so this is how it has always read.

Feint

Spoiler:

Feinting is a standard action. To feint, make a Bluff skill check. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + your opponent's base attack bonus + your opponent's Wisdom modifier. If your opponent is trained in Sense Motive, the DC is instead equal to 10 + your opponent's Sense Motive bonus, if higher. If successful, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before your next turn.

Quote:

Feinting as a Move Action

With the Improved Feint feat, you can attempt a feint as a move action.

Greater Feint (Combat)

Spoiler:

You are skilled at making foes overreact to your attacks.

Prerequisites: Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, base attack bonus +6, Int 13.

Benefit: Whenever you use feint to cause an opponent to lose his Dexterity bonus, he loses that bonus until the beginning of your next turn, in addition to losing his Dexterity bonus against your next attack.

Normal: A creature you feint loses its Dexterity bonus against your next attack.

Just like with basic Feint, that next attack can be taken on or before your next turn. The benefit your party gets ends when your turn starts, but you still get the benefit on your next attack, as long as you take that attack before the end of the turn after you make the feint. Greater Feint does not shorten the duration of the benefit to the character making the feint in exchange for providing the benefit to the rest of your team.

This is likely too late to help you, but hopefully it helps someone. :)

[Daenal]

See now I don't see where this is written anywhere that it helps others. The reason I say this is I have a rogue doing a feint rogue and it only helps him. Why? Verbiage. Here is what I mean.

Improved or Greater. They all refer you back to the basic feint rule which says they only lose Dex to you. Each of those state, “…make a bluff check to feint…” & “Whenever you use feint…” Meaning the basics feint rules still apply, with the exceptions of making it move action for improved and making it last longer for greater.

Feint states : If successful, the next melee attack ***you*** make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before ***your*** next turn.

They go out of their way to point out the YOU in two places. Otherwise they would have simply said, "The target of this attack loses his Dexterity bonus to attacks made against him this round."

No where in the feint rules does it say he is completely denied his Dex bonus, only to the one feinting him. So I am not sure how this would help anyone except the rogue using the feint?

This actually makes logical sense. You are bluffing him to your attacks, it doesn’t make sense that when you go hey look over there or make your finesse attack or however you distract the opponent, that he would be fooled into thinking anyone else is suddenly any better or worse or any more of a threat because they aren’t the ones trying to trick him.

This has not changed since the first printing as Justyn has stated and the feint states that it only effects the attack you make against him, not anyone makes against him.

[burkoJames]

Daenal wrote:

See now I don't see where this is written anywhere that it helps others. The reason I say this is I have a rogue doing a feint rogue and it only helps him. Why? Verbiage. Here is what I mean.

Improved or Greater. They all refer you back to the basic feint rule which says they only lose Dex to you. Each of those state, “…make a bluff check to feint…” & “Whenever you use feint…” Meaning the basics feint rules still apply, with the exceptions of making it move action for improved and making it last longer for greater.

Feint states : If successful, the next melee attack ***you*** make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before ***your*** next turn.

They go out of their way to point out the YOU in two places. Otherwise they would have simply said, "The target of this attack loses his Dexterity bonus to attacks made against him this round."

No where in the feint rules does it say he is completely denied his Dex bonus, only to the one feinting him. So I am not sure how this would help anyone except the rogue using the feint?

This actually makes logical sense. You are bluffing him to your attacks, it doesn’t make sense that when you go hey look over there or make your finesse attack or however you distract the opponent, that he would be fooled into thinking anyone else is suddenly any better or worse or any more of a threat because they aren’t the ones trying to trick him.

This has not changed since the first printing as Justyn has stated and the feint states that it only effects the attack you make against him, not anyone makes against him.

Its in the way the wording changes with greater feint. Heres the text:

Quote:

Benefit: Whenever you use feint to cause an opponent to lose his Dexterity bonus, he loses that bonus until the beginning of your next turn, in addition to losing his Dexterity bonus against your next attack.

Normal: A creature you feint loses its Dexterity bonus against your next attack.

You will note that, in addition to losing Dex bonus vs. YOUR next attack, he loses his bonus until the beginning of your next turn. It doesn't say he loses his bonus against you until the beginning of your next turn, but that he loses his bonus. Period.

[ryric]

While I can see a case for both interpretations, if you go with the more restrictive version it makes Greater Feint an extremely lackluster feat. So I tend to go with the interpretation that makes it actually worth taking.

[Daenal]

Burko, Yes, but again it says your next turn and refers you back to the original feint so it doesn't change the wording that it is still only applied to you. It just makes it much longer. It doesn't say he loses it entirely, it states he loses "THAT" bonus, referring back to the original loss in the original feint rule so my point is still valid based on verbiage.

Ryric, Like that would be a first. There are lots of feats out there that are basically worthless or very, very situational at best. I mean, look at toughness.

[Jacob Saltband]

So if Great Feint doesnt remove the targets dex bonus vs all attackers what benefit does it give?

[CraziFuzzy]

I also feel that greater feint merely increases the duration of the result of the feint to the beginning of your next turn, as opposed to just your next attack. For comparison, the Feint Partner feat WILL allow a partner to gain the benefit of your feint.

[Daenal]

Crazi, I didn't know about that feat. That really sinks it home then. If Greater Feint was as people are saying, then Feint Partner would be absolutely worthless and they never would have made it a teamwork feat. That tells me everything I need to know. Awesome.

[Ferious Thune]

The existence of one feat does not affect the text of another feat. Feint Partner can be taken at 1st level and only applies to a single attack. Greater Feint has two feat prereqs, a stat prereq, and a BAB +6 prereq. It can't be taken until at least 6th level, 8th for a Rogue. Interpetting it as helping your allies is not overpowered for the investment.

[Daenal]

Ferious, that is very true. One doesn't negate the other, it simply help validate my point. The text is still as it stands and the verbiage states it is only you, not your allies.

Let's say for example that it was that way, it would be totally broken in the sense that that now applies to everyone. Including the fighters, the other rogues in the group, everyone. It makes them easier to hit for everyone, allows another rogue to sneak attack them without a flank, makes it easier to hit them with dex based saves, etc. That would be broken in my opinion. With just two rogues, that makes greater feint so powerful it is insane. Especially if one of the rogues is built around feint. Trust me on this, I am dealing with it in my tenth level campaign and until I went back a reread, the rogue with feint is doing near 120hp per round if he rolls half decently.

If you have one person take the feint path, the teamwork one is worthless as now everyone gets it anyways. It just helps my case is all.

[Jacob Saltband]

Theres problem with comparing feats from later books to a CRB feat.
The CRB feat should have had a use before any other books came out. So when the CRB came out what benefit did greater feint give when used?

[Gark the Goblin]

Circumstantial 120 dpr is not overpowered for a 10th-level character.

[CraziFuzzy]

Jacob Saltband wrote:

Theres problem with comparing feats from later books to a CRB feat.

The CRB feat should have had a use before any other books came out. So when the CRB came out what benefit did greater feint give when used?

Simply extending the duration of the effect to the beginning of the feinter's next turn. In practice, this allows the increased hit chance on AoO's. It's not that different in very limited but specific use of many of the other 'greater' levels in the various maneuver feat chains.

Greater Bull Rush - allows generating AoO's.
Greater Drag - allows generating AoO's
Greater Dirty Trick - extends effect duration
Greater Disarm - Disarmed weapon knocked away
Greater Feint - extends effect duration
Greater Grapple - maintain grapple as move action
Greater Overrun - allows generating AoO's
Greater Reposition - allows generating AoO's
Greater Sunder - pass damage through to enemy
Greater Trip - allows generating AoO's

None of these are particularly powerful, and in a way, show a diminishing rate of return compared to the improved version.

[Jacob Saltband]

You left out the part about all the greater combat maneuver feats add an additional +2 to succeed on that maneuver. Greater Feint doesnt.

An additional +2 is pretty big in my book.

Edit: and the 'generating AoO's' is for any opponent not just from the person performing the maneuver.

[CraziFuzzy]

Jacob Saltband wrote:

You left out the part about all the greater combat maneuver feats add an additional +2 to succeed on that maneuver. Greater Feint doesnt.

An additional +2 is pretty big in my book.

I think that's partly because feint has a different bonus, using Bluff vs BAB+WIS instead of CMB vs CMD, so there's more 'scaling' already built-in to the maneuver than the others.

[Jacob Saltband]

Ferious Thune wrote:

The existence of one feat does not affect the text of another feat. Feint Partner can be taken at 1st level and only applies to a single attack. Greater Feint has two feat prereqs, a stat prereq, and a BAB +6 prereq. It can't be taken until at least 6th level, 8th for a Rogue. Interpetting it as helping your allies is not overpowered for the investment.

I agree with Ferious here.

[Seran Blackros]

Is there any way we can get an official response to this?

S.

[Jacob Saltband]

The question of what Greater Feint does has been asked several times over the last few years but has never gained more 30-50 FAQ flags so, as far as I can tell, has never been 'officially' answered but I could have missed it.

HAS there been an 'official' answer to the Greater Feint question?