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Sap Adept (Combat)
Prerequisite: Sneak attack +1d6.
Benefit: Whenever you use a bludgeoning weapon to deal nonlethal sneak attack damage, you gain a bonus on your damage roll equal to twice the number of sneak attack damage dice you rolled.
Sap Master (Combat)
Prerequisite: Sneak attack +3d6, Sap Adept.
Benefit: Whenever you use a bludgeoning weapon to deal nonlethal sneak attack damage to a flat-footed opponent, roll your sneak attack dice twice, totaling the results as your nonlethal sneak attack damage for that attack.
Okay... so how much non-lethal damage do you actually deal?
Let's say that I'm a 5th level Rogue with these feats, using a Sap to deal non-lethal damage to a flat-footed foe.
So I deal weapon damage and all its normal bonuses (obviously), then +3d6 sneak attack (as normal), but I 'roll that sneak attack damage twice, totalling the results as my nonlethal sneak attack damage', so that's actually +6d6, correct? Then I 'gain a bonus on my damage roll equal to twice the number of sneak attack damage dice I rolled'... so is that another 3d6 or another 6d6?
Regardless, 9d6 or 12d6 additional damage is pretty heady at 5th level, even if it is non-lethal damage.
I'm toying around with a Half-Orc Fighter 2 (Unbreakable)/ Rogue 5+(Thug) as an NPC and I want to make sure I have my numbers right...
Also, how would this work with the Rogue Talent Offensive Defense?
Offensive Defense (Ex)
Benefit: When a rogue with this talent hits a creature with a melee attack that deals sneak attack damage, the rogue gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC for each sneak attack die rolled for one round.
The bonus from Sap Adept is a flat numerical bonus, not bonus dice. As ShadowcatX noted, the total damage, if you assume that sap adept gives +2 for the additional dice rolled for Sap master, is weapon damage+6d6+12+any other applicable bonuses.
The issue is not 100% clarified but it seems to me to be not unbalanced since many common foes are immune to nonlethal damage (undead, swarms, constructs, etc.)
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Keep in mind that is says:
Benefit: Whenever you use a bludgeoning weapon to deal nonlethal sneak attack damage, you gain a bonus on your damage roll equal to twice the number of sneak attack damage dice you rolled.
This is a fixed number, so 3d6 gives you 6 extra damage, etc., so at 5th level your Thug is dealing 6d6+12 Nonlethal damage per round. If you can consistently deny a target his Dex. bonus, or catch him flat-footed, you could also consider grabbing Knockout Artist for an extra point of nonlethal damage per sneak attack (but only when Dex. to AC is denied).
Keep in mind that is says:
Benefit: Whenever you use a bludgeoning weapon to deal nonlethal sneak attack damage, you gain a bonus on your damage roll equal to twice the number of sneak attack damage dice you rolled.This is a fixed number, so 3d6 gives you 6 extra damage, etc., so at 5th level your Thug is dealing 6d6+12 Nonlethal damage per round. If you can consistently deny a target his Dex. bonus, or catch him flat-footed, you could also consider grabbing Knockout Artist for an extra point of nonlethal damage per sneak attack (but only when Dex. to AC is denied).
So does that mean that Offensive Defense would grant a +6 AC bonus under those circumstances?
Thug + scout could be a good archetype combination. However, one part of the thug archetype is a little confusing. In Brutal Beating, do you simply roll 1 fewer dice, or do you roll your dice, and then roll another 1d6 and subtract that amount?
I'd just roll 1 fewer d6 than normal.
Scout probably gets the most sneak attack opportunities, leaving out those ninjas (or rogues) who take vanishing trick, or have a wand of 'vanish' or something.
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So does that mean that Offensive Defense would grant a +6 AC bonus under those circumstances?Keep in mind that is says:
Benefit: Whenever you use a bludgeoning weapon to deal nonlethal sneak attack damage, you gain a bonus on your damage roll equal to twice the number of sneak attack damage dice you rolled.This is a fixed number, so 3d6 gives you 6 extra damage, etc., so at 5th level your Thug is dealing 6d6+12 Nonlethal damage per round. If you can consistently deny a target his Dex. bonus, or catch him flat-footed, you could also consider grabbing Knockout Artist for an extra point of nonlethal damage per sneak attack (but only when Dex. to AC is denied).
Yup. You got it, Merc.
It uses equivalent language in both cases; "sneak attack damage dice you rolled" and "for each sneak attack die rolled".
At the moment there isn't an FAQ or errata clarifying this, so it's up to the individual GM, I believe. Not sure how PFS would handle it. However, whichever way you play, you should be consistent. If you allow sap adept to give +12 when Sap Master doubles sneak attack dice, then you should allow offensive defense to give +6.
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I think since you're rolling 3d6 twice, you should get plus 6. Otherwise the feat would have said you double the number of sneak attack dice you roll. You still only get 3d6, so the numerical bonus you get from sap adept is based on that. But yeah that's just my conservative opinion of the rules, I agree it should be clarified.
I think since you're rolling 3d6 twice, you should get plus 6. Otherwise the feat would have said you double the number of sneak attack dice you roll. You still only get 3d6, so the numerical bonus you get from sap adept is based on that. But yeah that's just my conservative opinion of the rules, I agree it should be clarified.
I had not considered the wording in that light before your post... I could very easily be convinced of your view on this, though as a player trying to build a character, I'd rather not be. :-P
Think its worth a FAQ thread?
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| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
lol yeah of course as a player there's certain bias =)
I had tried to do this with a vivisectionist of sarenrae w/ their trait that lets you deal nonlethal with a scimitar... and only recently realized the build is busted up b/c its still not a bludgeoning weapon =(
def FAQ worthy.
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As much as I hate to side with a more liberal interpretation of something so ridiculous, I would say that by the rules, it is probably the 6d6+12, and +6 to dodge ac for 1 round, isn't it. I would say this because it says to roll your damage twice. The rogue talent and the sap adept feat do not say 'per sneak attack die you possess.'
An example of where it's more balanced would be say in bleeding attack rogue talent:
Bleeding Attack* (Ex): A rogue with this ability can cause living opponents to bleed by hitting them with a sneak attack. This attack causes the target to take 1 additional point of damage each round for each die of the rogue's sneak attack (e.g., 4d6 equals 4 points of bleed).
There's a pretty clear difference of wording there between the others, for example.
That being said, I would not blame a GM for house-ruling HELLS NO.
One house-rule balance my GM does is he limits the amount of sneak attack that can be done to 1 time per target. That way you don't have the all-too-easy two-weapon fighting, haste, rapid shot, etc builds.
Now pair that with this sap mess, and you can be looking at damage by level 8 that would make a meteor swarm laughable.
That's 1 time per target a round, btw^. It's to limit getting your sneak attack like 7x's against 1 creature in a single round.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Things that say "Answered in the FAQ" aren't always actually answered, but because of the way their FAQ system works they have to label it as something.
Well, let's examine the evidence...
1. It's about something nice for rogues (the devs HATE rogues)
2. It only got 5 people requesting an FAQ while threads w/ 30+ requests languish
3. Yet, someone so zealously felt it was such an important "issue", it needed to be resolved anyway.
...yeah, you can bet money on them coming down on a harsh interpretation or even finding some creative new "it was that way all along, we swear!" interpretation to screw over the rogue even worse than the minimalist interpretations of people on this debate were arguing for.
If it does show up in an FAQ soon.
I would hope it comes up in favor of the player there. I would consider 'rolling 3d6 twice' and '6d6' as the same thing.
If I picked it up a sneak attack Die and rolled it. Then picked it up and rolled it again... then i rolled it twice.
As the official Paizo sets of dice only come with ONE d6... then to do the earlier example I picked up and rolled a d6 six times...
Partly I hate nitpicky rules lawyering... and partly I have little to no fear of rogues doing non-lethal damage to break a game.
Let them have a nice thing ;)
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Also, abilities like this one reduce your sneak attack dice and would reduce bleed damage or other associated effects like Sap Adept and Sap Master.
Scout's Charge (Scout Archetype) or Enforcer and Shatter Defences are the usual methods.
prototype00
An ally dipping rogue 2 levels and taking Distracting Attack is an easy way to reliably get a foe flatfooted, as long as you can get someone willing to do so, or a cohort.