My litmus test is usually would I think this is fair as a player should my DM suddenly use an alchemist against me? When alchemists start taking out PC's with no real way of them defending themselves except through pure luck then everyone has an interest in doing something about it. I guess I don't feel it's really that extreme a power imbalance yet but definitely keeping an eye on it.
That's usually one of my favorite ways to test out something to see if it feels out of balance. And, I'm tellin' ya, if I put two alchemists in an enemy party against my party that can focus fire to death any one of my NPCs save the monk (because no PC has inherant elemental resistance...and it's not a buff they even think to put up in doing pre-buffing, when allowed). They may even get lucky and take out two PC's in round 1. Again, that can happen with any NPC class going against the party, it's just that with the alchemist, it will happen with a very, very small chance of enough misses to say otherwise. Once the party sees one of their numbers nearly or comletely wiped by bombs (after an alchemist gets a turn), I'm pretty sure that NPC will become priority number 1. This isn't me looking into a crystal ball...this is pretty much how any party would react. Sure, the archer and/or wizard in the back are also super dangerous (and in a round, one of them might do more than a single alchemist, even)... and they MIGHT get that kind of attention if they roll luck (and/or people fail saves)...but the alechmist is a sure thing.
I like the fact that I can have my gnome alchemist make himself tiny (via reduce person) and yet it doesn't impact his bomb damage. One of my normal gripes about small (don't even think about tiny) characters is the concern over getting gear and the reduced damage of small or tiny weapons.
hahah.....Good point DosGamer! LOL
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I like the fact that I can have my gnome alchemist make himself tiny (via reduce person) and yet it doesn't impact his bomb damage. One of my normal gripes about small (don't even think about tiny) characters is the concern over getting gear and the reduced damage of small or tiny weapons.
It does make you a lot more bite-sized though.
Are Bombs the new Orb of Acid/Cold/Fire/Force/Lightning/Sound spells of Pathfinder?
just a quick question : you actually let the alchemist throwing stuff up (no pun intened) 100' and treated it as normal range increments ? I am a bit confused here , because "up" is a lot harder than throwing horizontally, for which the range increments are calculated.
I would, with my GM's hat on, in fact as a player too, at least double the increments for anything like that.
In fact... 100' up ? I dare anyone living to throw something onto the top of a 10 story building from street level without assistance. So the -12 should turn into a straight -24.. or worse.
One might want to take a hint from the "acrobatics-jumping" rules (where the DCs nigh triple for Upwards jumps)
And it always rubbed me the wrong way, that throwing ranges are not actually based on strength or size. Reality proves otherwise
If your player gripes about the modification of range increments being arbitrary, that is the moment when you roast/char/shockfreeze him with the breath weapon. Playing the dragon "half-smart" is sensible, especially if "super-smart" (like the Int 20 (or whatever) implies the group being massively outclassed. Dragons do not usualy grow old due to being dumb or letting people who hurt them get away to tell the tale if they can....
That being said, yes alchemists are pretty good at damaging "invulnerable" stuff. And they get screwed in a major way once elemental resistances are being buffed, say by a lowly "resist elements"(which any dragon, especially the ones with "vulerability to X" would have in their spell arsenal or supply themselves with as items.
So it boils down to "no alchemists are not too good but the GM might want to rethink his tactical choices" ?
Are Bombs the new Orb of Acid/Cold/Fire/Force/Lightning/Sound spells of Pathfinder?
no, they aren't (not affected by Metamagic feats) and anyway, those spell were not too good in the first place either, just requiring a different set of tactics to ddefend against. Blur, Displacement, Mirror Image etc.... easy ways to counter those "touch attack" spells.
Viking... Yeah, I did...only because my quick search of the rules did not show extra penalties for throwing vertically. I was pretty shocked about that, but I may have been looking in the wrong place. I try to run games (mostly) by the rules rather than improvising too much.
As far as the 'easy counters,' I'd point out 2 concerns. First, not every class has access to those spells. Second, casting those spells does require a round (unless meta'd, then it only costs a swift).
if you can improve his Dex and give him deflect arrows will help.
Two years man, you're a little late to the party.
Yeah...I get that part, Martin. :) But, my question is...why is the alchemist even able to damage the dragon to begin with when every other class is completely powerless against this great wyrm?
Conjuration schools spells rarely have SR, so Wizards, Sorcerers, Magi, and Arcanists can also do heinous things to dragons.
Gunslingers target touch AC and do lots of damage.Anyone can chuck alchemical items at a dragon with a reasonable expectation of effect
So the alchemist is not the only class capable of hurting an overpowered dragon, you just happened to pick an opponent that played to his strengths. Much like throwing a mob at a Great Cleaving Fighter or demon against a Paladin.
The thing is, Cheapy, looking over CR 13+ mobs.I know this is an old thread, but does anybody else find it really confusing when people refer to individual monsters as "mobs"? Or is it just me?Drives me insane. I still have to spend a moment every time to remember what they mean.
I know it's MMO terminology, but it just sounds wrong to me.
Might be just me, but I found 'draggy' way more annoying than 'mob'. It's even the same amount of letters as 'dragon'!
Yes, Lets not say draggy! :)
@JCServant- Well..You've convinced me to make natural armor effective against bombs and bullets.(Source:Godzilla movies)
A bomb that misses due to natural armor only does splash damage.
Bullets just fail to penetrate.
How does that sound for a fix?
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@JCServant- Well..You've convinced me to make natural armor effective against bombs and bullets.(Source:Godzilla movies)
A bomb that misses due to natural armor only does splash damage.
Bullets just fail to penetrate.
How does that sound for a fix?
but...at the same time....the fact that heavy ordinance explosives are the only effective solution against this creature just SOUNDS right to me. Y'know?
Might be just me, but I found 'draggy' way more annoying than 'mob'. It's even the same amount of letters as 'dragon'!The thing is, Cheapy, looking over CR 13+ mobs.I know this is an old thread, but does anybody else find it really confusing when people refer to individual monsters as "mobs"? Or is it just me?Drives me insane. I still have to spend a moment every time to remember what they mean.
I know it's MMO terminology, but it just sounds wrong to me.
Well yeah, "draggy" was annoying too. But that was (hopefully) just this one poster, whereas "mob" is a thing.
_
glass.
I don't know. Draggy would probably be a pretty good term to use if you're trying to draw aggro.
Maybe Draggy the Dragon has gender issues? He's also a Song dragon trapped in a green dragons body...which is no fun :)
Yes, this is an encounter that plays to the strength of certain classes.
Just like how martials do awesome against golems and other magic-immune monsters, while the casters lament their inability to do anything, so too does the alchemist (and gunslinger) do awesome against creatures with pitiful touch AC.
Actually funny thing that... Fighters have harder time vs golems than wizards....
Golems are imune to spells that allow SR. SR no spells still affect them... like Create Pit... or Reverse Gravity.
Yes, this is an encounter that plays to the strength of certain classes.
Just like how martials do awesome against golems and other magic-immune monsters, while the casters lament their inability to do anything, so too does the alchemist (and gunslinger) do awesome against creatures with pitiful touch AC.
Actually funny thing that... Fighters have harder time vs golems than wizards....
Golems are imune to spells that allow SR. SR no spells still affect them... like Create Pit... or Reverse Gravity.
It depends on whether you have those spells prepared/spells known.
If you suddenly find yourself against a golem without the right spells, then yes, the guy with the sword might do better than you.
All a melee fighter needs is an adamantine weapon, and he is golden. Or a barbarian with a +2 furious weapon, an inquisitor that adds bane to a +2 weapon, or one of any number of archetypes across various classes that ignore dr and hardness.
There are plenty of relatively simple ways for melee to get around this without it being the entire point of their preparations. Each of those examples of things that people would have because they are nice in general, not because they fear they are facing SR soon.
Now, prior to many of those options being available, you are right. Still, SR is something that can hit at any level (and many golems and other constructs have rather good CR)
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Yeah... I definately see that the bomb limit / day helps...but, again, spells are limited as well (the ones high enough to do that kind of damage, especially), and they STILL have to get through a mob's SR. A CR 20 dragon is very rarely phased by a level 13 caster's spells...but an LV 13 alchmist bombs hit every time. ...
I guess the way I would explain it is.
Sword can be used all day.
Spell has limited uses each day, but is much harder to stop.
Bombs are VERY limited uses each day, nearly impossible to stop.
Though a low level wind wall would have also worked. I've seen that used pretty often by the party to stop alchemists. Also casters should have some spells that are not affected by SR specifically for situations like that.
If your dragon engages a melee fight with a party, you're doing it wrong.
If your dragon engages a melee fight with a party, you're doing it wrong.
Ridiculous, one of the staples of the fantasy genre is the knight vs the dragon. yes, this has to be altered for a fantasy setting that relies on groups of players, but if the melee characters are told f@$$ you the way you're suggesting, it would be counterproductive to having a game for people to enjoy
Yes, this is an encounter that plays to the strength of certain classes.
Just like how martials do awesome against golems and other magic-immune monsters, while the casters lament their inability to do anything, so too does the alchemist (and gunslinger) do awesome against creatures with pitiful touch AC.
Actually funny thing that... Fighters have harder time vs golems than wizards....
Golems are imune to spells that allow SR. SR no spells still affect them... like Create Pit... or Reverse Gravity.
It depends on whether you have those spells prepared/spells known.
If you suddenly find yourself against a golem without the right spells, then yes, the guy with the sword might do better than you.
All a melee fighter needs is an adamantine weapon, and he is golden. Or a barbarian with a +2 furious weapon, an inquisitor that adds bane to a +2 weapon, or one of any number of archetypes across various classes that ignore dr and hardness.
There are plenty of relatively simple ways for melee to get around this without it being the entire point of their preparations. Each of those examples of things that people would have because they are nice in general, not because they fear they are facing SR soon.
Now, prior to many of those options being available, you are right. Still, SR is something that can hit at any level (and many golems and other constructs have rather good CR)
The thing, many SR No spells pretty much every wizard always has prepared All the time. Summons, create pit, reverse gravity, ect. In fact the Admantine Golem would prove more a trouble to the fighter yhan a wizy.
Actually, Flea..funny story about that...
The Dragon stayed 100 ft in the air to specifically have advantage vs. the party. Melee fighters were helpless. Spell slingers would sling spells but they were missing against the beasts' SR. Even the resident archer saw his arrows bounce off that 40 AC.
1 -- Another 7 feet in the air and none of the bombs hit. bombs have a range increment of 20', and thrown weapons a max range of 5 increments. Out of range, didn't hit. I am, of course, assuming none of the characters are over 7 feet tall.
1a -- For that matter as the GM you can disallow the hit based on a semi-realistic physics. check basic ballistics in pretty much any physics text. The further the horizontal distance travelled the higher the angle, peaking at 45 degrees (the presumed 100' max range), while a more vertical shot won't get the full 100' distance. Not RAW, but it is your game, right?)
1b -- As soon as an attack actually hits, the dragon elevates. Any attempts to follow upward are met by dispel magic/counterspelling.
2 -- Deflect arrows/Snatch Arrows (improved unarmed combat DM waived for natural attacks proficiency). Alchemist throws bomb, dragon catches bomb and can keep it or throw it back at the alchemist immediately. This also works for other monsters.
3 -- When the player announces that the alchemist plans to throw a bomb essentially straight up, raise one eyebrow, and ask if they are sure (perhaps stating the straight up part if no one else brings it up.)
3a -- If the other players or the alchemist himself don't change their mind, give the dragon a circumstance bonus to AC for wing turbulence on top of range penalties. When the attack misses, use the initial attack roll, without penalties (the alchemist is point blank range, has no wing turbulence, and the attack has to go somewhere, right?)
4 -- Full attack from the dragon, using non-lethal damage. The dragon is showing off, it can probably K.O. the Alchemist in a turn or two.
5 -- Grab the alchemist. If nothing else can hit the dragon, the Alchemist is prime target for being grabbed. Fly up afterword. If the Alchemist hits the dragon, he takes splash damage (you can hit the whole party with their own alchemist bombs sometimes. Cramped rooms work for non-draconics). After flying up if they alchemist wants to kill what keeps it in the air, probably weight over a ton, and after surviving his own splash, let him take the falling damage followed by the large object dropped on you damage. Of course, remember part 3 (raise one eyebrow and ask if he's sure)
6 -- Just plain melee. Splash damage might just be annoying to the rest of the party, but dedicated casters tend to get upset when their precious HP reserves are sucked up.
6a -- Melee with anything that gives a miss chance (incorporeality, blink, mirror image, fog cloud, displacement...) nothing like not taking damage while the party's Alchemist kills the group for you.
And Energy Resistance SHOULD be used. It is no less useful against other casters, and is a legitimate strategy. Also, by taking other energy damage types on the bombs he doesn't take other discoveries. Honestly, there's so much varied energy resistances in the Monster listings I'd be hard pressed not to take an energy type change as an alchemist on general preparedness. No all out immunity, per se, but what red dragon wouldn't have resist cold handy knowing its opponents are going to use something it's weak against?
Dragons can cast spells. They don't necessarily have to have the spell listed in the Bestairy. So give the dragon fire resistance. Also dragon's have a hoard of treasure that they can use. Change up the feats a little bit and swap something out for Deflect Arrows. That can be used to deflect one bomb. Add protection from Arrows, since bomb technically aren't magical it applies as DR for up to 10 bombs assuming a bomb does more than 10 damage.
If your dragon engages a melee fight with a party, you're doing it wrong.Ridiculous, one of the staples of the fantasy genre is the knight vs the dragon. yes, this has to be altered for a fantasy setting that relies on groups of players, but if the melee characters are told f%!% you the way you're suggesting, it would be counterproductive to having a game for people to enjoy
1) A party versus a dragon is entirely different from a single knight fighting a dragon.
2) The dragons in those tales were usually not intelligent. True dragons in D&D are smarter than most humans. The game also already has stupid dragons: they're called drakes.
3) It honestly makes no sense why a dragon would fight in melee. Their greatest advantage against PCs is their breath weapon and the ability to fly. Why would they not utilize that? Even animals know to fight in ways advantageous to them. Evil dragons believe humanoids are too beneath then for a fair fight, too.
A dragon should always be airborne, blasting the PCs with their breath weapon and using Fly-By Attack. They should never fight the party in the confines of their cave, even if it means using magic or taking attacks of opportunity to escape.
The thing, many SR No spells pretty much every wizard always has prepared All the time. Summons, create pit, reverse gravity, ect. In fact the Admantine Golem would prove more a trouble to the fighter yhan a wizy.
Well, that one is hardly fair- adamantine golems are nearly indestructible enemies that you are more meant to avoid and delay until you find the one specific magical item needed to defeat it. It is hardly a good standard for direct battle, which is applied to almost every other enemy in some form or another.
Adamantine golems are more plot devices you throw at players before they get level 9 spells... and even then, you need to reduce it to negative HP before it can be destroyed.
But for the point about spells- then your GM is probably not challenging you well enough. Just randomly throwing golems at you at the start of the day will not do much. You have to have your resources spent by other encounters before he springs that on you. If you have it ALL the time, then you are not being challenged properly.
... Also dragon's have a hoard of treasure that they can use. ...
Once had a dragon dropping bags of gold on us (we were on a ship at the time) from really high up. That was more than just a little condescending and annoying. Really made us want to go after it rather than just ignore it.