Butterfly’s Sting


Rules Questions


Hi,

one of my player want to take the "Butterfly’s Sting" and I have a few problems with this feat.

The feat description is:

Spoiler:
Benefit: When you confirm a critical hit against a creature, you can choose to forgo the effect of the critical hit and grant a critical hit to the next ally who hits the creature with a melee attack before the start of your next turn. Your attack only deals normal damage, and the next ally automatically confirms the hit as a critical.

Now my problem:
Did this means If player A scores a critical hit and use this feat, the next player who hits this creature autmaticly rolls a crit and confirm it or did it mean, the next player had to roll the crit by himself and the crit is only automaticly confirmed?


The next ally who hits the creature treats their attack as a critical hit which is automatically confirmed.

So as long as the ally hits the creature, they get a critical hit.


Ok, then this feat is really cheap...

TWF char with two high crit range weapons and one Big guy with big crit multiply weapon = "Let's one hit this monster"


Well, it requires at least 3 feats on the part of the guy who will be passing the critical hit on. 4 if you include Improved Critical. 6 if you add in the other Two weapon feats, to further their chances.

Shrug. I think most GMs would be happy that characters are working together.

It can get a bit ridiculous with dual-wielding kukris and someone with a scythe.


3 feats?
as far as I see you only need combat expertise for it.

Maybe it't only my personal concern because the player who get it, is a... let's say extreme optimizer :)


Combat Expertise, Two-Weapon Fighting, and Butterfly's Sting.

Note that it's meant to be a feat for worshipers of Desna, so it's setting specific, and strongly tied to a specific deity.


Butterfly Sting is quite possibly one of the most abusable feats in Pathfinder. That it doesn't get more mention is likely thanks only to being buried in an obscure(-ish) book, and the general lack of teamwork abuse. I, personally, probably wouldn't allow it for anyone with even a vague concept of optimization.

For extra fun: light pick kensai. x4 crit plus Perfect Strike plus a critical spell plus Critical Perfection and oh hey Critical Strike at 12...

This isn't even getting into what you can pull with teamwork feats. It is scary. Just scary.


If you read it RAW though, unless your last attack that hit in the full attack was a crit, then your next attack that hits will be a crit.

So if you have 3 attacks, and your second criticals, then your third (if it hits) will be a critical. You are your own ally of course.

Oh hey, now it doesn't even require a teammate! Dual wielding a kukri and a light pick. :D But your light pick won't get a ton of extra damage from two-hand wielding strength bonus, which is where this feat gets nasty.

Unless you have Quick Draw, and quickly draw a Scythe...


Cheapy wrote:

If you read it RAW though, unless your last attack that hit in the full attack was a crit, then your next attack that hits will be a crit.

So if you have 3 attacks, and your second criticals, then your third (if it hits) will be a critical. You are your own ally of course.

Can't you just use Butterfly Sting again? I mean, your next attack automatically is confirmed, so you can just forgo that confirmation for the next person.

Cheapy wrote:

Oh hey, now it doesn't even require a teammate! Dual wielding a kukri and a light pick. :D But your light pick won't get a ton of extra damage from two-hand wielding strength bonus, which is where this feat gets nasty.

Unless you have Quick Draw, and quickly draw a Scythe...

You could just put the Kukri in your off hand to prevent the penalty to crit damage.


Tryn wrote:
one of my player want to take the "Butterfly’s Sting" and I have a few problems with this feat.

Then say no. Don't feel obliged to allow every piece of every supplement. You see this will be a problem, don't be afraid to say no to something or remove already introduced material if it becomes a problem.

Don't forget you count as your own ally.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/powersAlliesDoTheyIncludeYouSpecificClarificationNeededForExamples so

Dark Archive

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You aren't even realizing the scary party of the synergy between the flank buddy with the TWF chain and the WWA/Great Cleave scythe wielding two-handed (archetype) fighter. The TWF buddy attacks 1 target till he scores a crit, then switches to a new target and attacks till he scores another crit (with some luck). Best case scenario (or worst if you are the DM), the TWF scores 9/9 crits then the TWF who's been delaying his WWA this whole time cleans house making an attack specifically against every single target that was just crit.

Here's where it gets worse... put a little dex on both, both take combat reflexes, and now you no longer have to ready attacks/delay actions... there's a teamwork feat for taking an aoo against a target that a critical threat (maybe confirm, can't remember the wording right now) by an ally threatening the same enemy.

That's right.. you can blender a boss by keying off the crit you just donated to your scythe wielding monster and scoring another critical confirmation to donate which he then uses an AoO to follow up with another HUGE hit on.

By the way, when I first stumbled onto this... I did it as a bard with my friend who was running a scythe wielding two-handed fighter. He was dishing out at a minimum 100+ damage at the mid range. I only came across it because I was using a rapier and doing no damage and wanted to find a way to further help the party besides my Inspire Courage and acrobatics movements to provide the +2 flanking bonus.

--------------------------

A single person can come up with a build that is strong by itself.
A group of people truly working together for the strength of the whole is a DM's worst nightmare.

Liberty's Edge

Mort the Cleverly Named wrote:

Butterfly Sting is quite possibly one of the most abusable feats in Pathfinder. That it doesn't get more mention is likely thanks only to being buried in an obscure(-ish) book, and the general lack of teamwork abuse. I, personally, probably wouldn't allow it for anyone with even a vague concept of optimization.

For extra fun: light pick kensai. x4 crit plus Perfect Strike plus a critical spell plus Critical Perfection and oh hey Critical Strike at 12...

This isn't even getting into what you can pull with teamwork feats. It is scary. Just scary.

I actually had this exact combo in a game I ran. The characters were a Kensai Blackblade (house-ruled to allow the Pick because I think the weapon restriction is silly) Magus and Lore Warden Fighter. They were brothers in a CotCT game. Lots of fun. Very effective and killed things dead...but not any more so than many other builds. It's a nice combo, but full casters are still probably worse.

That game never got to really high levels, but still, I never had a real problem with it.

Sczarni

It is not that big a deal, one of my players in WoTR (time thief) uses the feat with kukris and TWF to set up huge Mythic Death From Above charges for the Mighty Godling. Looking at the bigger picture, a character dealing only menial damage so another one can increase his or hers considerably not only balances itself out but is also fun teamwork. The coolest part is that I had completely forgotten that Butterfly Sting was a Desna related feat. A deity coincidentally and strongly connected to the character and his kukris (legendary items forged from the severed wings of one of her followers). Fun all around.

Shadow Lodge

Cheapy wrote:

If you read it RAW though, unless your last attack that hit in the full attack was a crit, then your next attack that hits will be a crit.

So if you have 3 attacks, and your second criticals, then your third (if it hits) will be a critical. You are your own ally of course.

Oh hey, now it doesn't even require a teammate! Dual wielding a kukri and a light pick. :D But your light pick won't get a ton of extra damage from two-hand wielding strength bonus, which is where this feat gets nasty.

Unless you have Quick Draw, and quickly draw a Scythe...

You may count as your own ally, but it's A lot less likely that you count as your own next ally.

Dark Archive

Serum wrote:
Cheapy wrote:

If you read it RAW though, unless your last attack that hit in the full attack was a crit, then your next attack that hits will be a crit.

So if you have 3 attacks, and your second criticals, then your third (if it hits) will be a critical. You are your own ally of course.

Oh hey, now it doesn't even require a teammate! Dual wielding a kukri and a light pick. :D But your light pick won't get a ton of extra damage from two-hand wielding strength bonus, which is where this feat gets nasty.

Unless you have Quick Draw, and quickly draw a Scythe...

You may count as your own ally, but it's A lot less likely that you count as your own next ally.

The dual wield Butterfly's Sting user at low level is purely meant to generate more opportunity for the Two-Handed(archetype) Fighter or similar high damage build equipped with an x4 critical two-handed weapon. This is purely to ensure the demise of high value targets but likely won't come up too often due to low chances for it to occur. Between initiative counts, party positions, and just plain not getting your threats or confirming them. If you can swing two-weapon fighting you can increase the odds further, but that would require third level or lots of feats at first level in addition to playing a human.

At later levels, this will remain the strategy for quite some time, with the increased number of attacks and either keen or improved critical added to directly affect how often it can occur.

Uniquely to the two-handed fighter archetype, at 19th level, the stinger shifts focus from donating critical strikes to others to being his own ally as it were. This is done by off-handing a kukri (or similar) and main handing yourself a pick (or similar). Because nothing says what order you must take iterative attacks or off-hand/main hand attacks in, you can crit with your off-hand then immediately attack with your main hand pick for the auto crit.

By doing this, you still maintain your off-hand normal damage (via double slice) and can also proc two-weapon rend. In addition your main hand for all but 1 attack is guaranteed to get a critical strike. So not only are you not losing out on potential damage in the higher game, but you've turned a build that has since the beginning meant to make an ally look better into a weapon that makes you look far more effective.

However, it suffers the same faults as any critical strike based build. Starvation for feats, and your critical strikes showing up on a target you didn't need it for.

I'll bet you dimes to dollars though that this may give monks just what they need to contribute to the group until they are able to stand head and shoulders with the two-handed crowd in the late game. Afterall, they get two weapon fighting and two-weapon rend for free. And you can either Agile your weapons (if you've got your head stuck on dexterity) or Guided (if you've got your head stuck on wisdom). However I suggest just strength since it always functions for damage even in anti-magic areas.


Monk and crits can't stand in the same phrase unless there is a not somewhere.


Why do folks think this only applies to two-weapon fighters? I think that would be a good limit, but I don't see it in the book. All I see is combat expertise.

Lantern Lodge

All of this talk makes me want to play a Desna-worshipping Summoner, and focus on a "one good hit" eidolon instead of the "pounce + 7 attacks" builds everyone else uses.


Here's the kicker. Butterfly's Sting is triggered by a critical confirm, it creates a critical autoconfirm for the next person who scores a hit and so RAW you could have it loop with itself, or with someone else's Butterfly Sting.

Bossun wrote:
Here's where it gets worse... put a little dex on both, both take combat reflexes, and now you no longer have to ready attacks/delay actions... there's a teamwork feat for taking an aoo against a target that a critical threat (maybe confirm, can't remember the wording right now) by an ally threatening the same enemy.

Are you talking about Seize the Moment? Another feat doing something similar would be great, but I always thought it would be something like this -

Attack #1. Player 1 confirms a crit and defers it to the next attack with Butterfly's Sting
Attack #2. Player 2 AoOs with Seize the Moment. His attack is a critical confirm but he defers the critical with Butterfly's Sting.
Attack #3. Player 1 AoOs with Seize the Moment. His attack is a critical confirm but he defers the critical with Butterfly's Sting.
Attack #4. Player 2 AoOs with Seize the Moment and Combat Reflexes. His attack is a critical confirm but he defers the critical with Butterfly's Sting.

All the way down to... Attack #8? #9? Player 1/2 AoOs with Seize the Moment and Combat Reflexes. His final AoO is a confirmed critical.

If either misses the chain ends, but if Player 1 has more BAB attacks or TWF he could make another attack, receiving his own deferred critical and creating another Seize the Moment AoO. (You always count as your own ally unless otherwise stated).

Shadow Lodge

I heard one of the new books has a new version of this feat.

If that's the case, does anyone have the wording handy? Is it an errata?

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook Subscriber

The new, legal, version of this feat is to be found in "Inner Sea Gods"

The description of the feat is the same, but there is now an additional requirement that anyone taking the feat must be a worshiper of Desna.

Shadow Lodge

Er, so what happens if you've already taken the feat before and don't worship Desna?


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For PFS?

Quote:

If a feat changes or is removed from the Additional Resources list:

You have two options. You may either switch the old feat for an updated feat of the same name in another legal source (if available), ignoring any prerequisites of the new feat you do not meet. Alternatively, you may replace the feat entirely with another feat that has no prerequisites.

(source)

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook Subscriber

So you can either keep the feat, ignoring the prerequisite of worshiping Desna, as long as you have a copy of Inner Sea Gods, or you can replace it with a different feat that has no prerequisites. Or, of course, you can use the retraining rules to switch to any legal feat (which will take 5 days, and cost you 50 x your level gp).

Liberty's Edge

Voomer wrote:
Why do folks think this only applies to two-weapon fighters? I think that would be a good limit, but I don't see it in the book. All I see is combat expertise.

That's all there is...but it's not nearly as useful with only half the chances to critical. So TWF isn't required to have it, just to maximize its usefulness.

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