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So I was just looking at the Dimensional Agility chain of feats, and I realized that there's not really many builds that it works for.
First, here's the chain:
Benefit: After using abundant step or casting dimension door, you can take any actions you still have remaining on your turn. You also gain a +4 bonus on Concentration checks when casting teleportation spells.
Benefit: As a full-round action, you use abundant step or cast dimension door as a special charge. Doing so allows you to teleport up to double your current speed (up to the maximum distance allowed by the spell or ability) and to make the attack normally allowed on a charge.
Benefit: You can take a full-attack action, activating abundant step or casting dimension door as a swift action. If you do, you can teleport up to twice your speed (up to the maximum distance allowed by the spell or ability), dividing this teleportation into increments you use before your first attack, between each attack, and after your last attack. You must teleport at least 5 feet each time you teleport.
Special: A monk can use additional points from his ki pool to increase his speed before determining the total speed for this teleportation.
Benefit: While using the Dimensional Dervish feat, you gain a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks to bull rush, disarm, reposition, or trip an opponent.
Benefit: While using the Dimensional Dervish feat, you provide flanking from all squares you attack from. Flanking starts from the moment you make an attack until the start of your next turn. You can effectively flank with yourself and with multiple allies when using this feat.
So, to take Agility and start the chain, you need to be a 12th level monk, a 10th level bard or magus, a 8th level sorcerer, or a 7th level wizard, witch, cleric (travel), or summoner. Since you can't get the feat on an even level, that means 13, 11, 9, or 7.
Of those classes, all of them could benefit to some extent from Agility, although the ones for whom it's a standard action to cast dimension door (everyone except the magus and the monk), there's not a great deal of benefit to be gained.
Assault is an entirely useless feat for anyone who doesn't ever charge (wizard, sorcerer, witch, summoner) or anyone who can activate Agility and still be able to attack afterwards (magus & monk). That leaves bards and clerics who melee as the only ones who might benefit from this feat, but it's required to go further up the chain. The magus and monk might choose to use it on occasion, if they have some benefit to charging, and don't need the full distance they'd get by using Assault, but under normal circumstances, there's no point. Even for those who could potentially benefit, the next feat in the chain is much more effective. In my game, I'm probably going to house rule this feat out of existence.
Dervish is a very nice feat for melee builds, aside from the requirements. The witch, and wizard, who could be getting this at 11, don't meet the BAB requirement of +6, and don't really have any use for the feat. The sorcerer (or either of the others) at 13 has the BAB, but again doesn't have much use. The travel-domain cleric and summoner do have the BAB at 11th level, as do the bard and magus (at 15) and the monk (at 17). All those (except the summoner) could also find this feat useful (assuming the cleric and bard are melee).
Maneuvers is obviously useless to anyone who doesn't perform combat maneuvers normally (wizard, sorcerer, witch, summoner), and the BAB requirements would keep the half BAB classes (wizard, sorcerer, witch) from taking it until 19th level anyway. The 3/4 BAB classes (magus, bard, monk, summoner, cleric) could get it as early as 13, except it has to be two levels after Dervish. So cleric and summoner at 13, magus and bard at 17, monk at 19. Of those, only the monk is actually likely to be making lots of maneuvers.
Savant is the "ultimate" feat in the chain. It's on the same level as Maneuvers, requiring Dervish, and has the same BAB requirement, but it's more generally useful. Everyone benefits from flanking if they make attack rolls, and you're not taking this feat if you're not attacking. So the 1/2 BAB classes are excluded for the same reasons as above, and the 3/4 BAB classes could take this at 13, 17, or 19.
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So where does that leave us?
Witch, Wizard, Sorcerer: No point in going beyond Agility, but Agility could be worth picking up if you want to run away after teleporting away, or if you plan on regularly quickening your dimension door spells. Even then, you have to wonder if it's worth a feat.
Travel-domain Cleric: In theory, this could be good. However, you only can do this once a day unless you take the Theologian archetype to prepare your domain spells in regular slots, sacrifice higher level domain slots to dimension door, or just burn through a lot of divine dimension door scrolls (which are hard to come by and may necessitate you scribing your own). Plus, on top of that, you need to be a melee build cleric with either one or no other domains. Doable, certainly, but probably not worth it overall.
Bard: A bard can cast dimension door more than a cleric, and there's certainly viable melee builds for one. They also don't get much use out of Agility on its own, so they need to make a 2-3 feat investment minimum, starting at 11 and using up your 13th and probably 15th level feat slots before this becomes really viable. Still, it's certainly a viable option, especially for a sandman build.
Magus: A magus can make slightly better use of these feats than a monk, since he's already melee focused and can already dimension door as a swift action (as part of Spell Combat). So he can make full attacks with only Dimensional Agility (which makes Assault useless), although Dervish lets him teleport mid-attack and not take the -2 to attacks for spell combat. Definitely a good choice, although whether it's worth the feats is up to you.
Monk: Ah, the monk. The class this feat chain seems to be built for. The class qualifies so late that they get every single feat at least two levels later than everyone else, and are the only class that can't take both Savant and Maneuvers. Also, the phrasing on Dervish ("You can take a full attack action") means that by RAW you can't flurry while using any of these feats, which means using your lower BAB and not getting the extra attacks. Like the magus, the monk benefits from Agility and finds Assault useless - he just doesn't get Agility until two levels later (after PFS caps out, for what it's worth). With a touch of house ruling to apply RAI, this is a viable option, but it's not as amazing as it's intended to be.
Summoner: Why am I putting the summoner last? Synthesist builds. The synthesist summoner gets lots of castings of dimension door (unlike the cleric), can take Agility starting at 7th level (unlike the bard, magus, or monk), and can be a (literal) monster in melee (unlike the wizard, sorcerer, and witch). A synthesist at 11 can take Dervish and have 5 natural attacks plus 2 weapon attacks (more with TWF, obviously), as just an ordinary full attack (no conflict with flurry of blows). At 13th level, when a monk is just starting to take these feats, the synthesist can be flanking with himself, for that extra bonus to hit. This is by far the best build for these feats I can see.
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So what does it mean that a chain of feats which seams specifically geared towards the monk (and to a lesser degree the magus) is best used by a specific type of summoner?
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Its geared towards anyone who can DDoor and melee and wants to mix the two.
Eldritch knights can pick it up starting at 9th level (Wiz 5/ Fig 1/ EK 3), Assault at character 11th level (and he can make use of the DDoor/ attack), and Dervish at 13th.
Dragon Disciples can take it at 9th level as well with the same advancement.
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Well I'm allowing the Shadowdancer in my campaign to take these feats (she's a bard/rogue/shadow dancer); the Shadow Jump ability states "a shadowdancer gains the ability to travel between shadows as if by means of a dimension door spell". However, this may just be my interpretation of this feat tree.
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Do not forget the horizon walker, it makes it a viable chain for a full BAB character. Astral terrain mastery I think.
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Do not forget the horizon walker, it makes it a viable chain for a full BAB character. Astral terrain mastery I think.
Nope. That gives dimension door as a spell like ability, which is specifically not the same thing as being able to cast it. Why it specifically allows abundant step and not every dimension-door-like ability, I don't know, but that's the way it is.
Likewise for the shadowdancer (although I don't disagree with it as a house rule - I think it should be allowed).
The Eldritch knight and dragon disciple are good suggestions, though. The DD would have to wait on the tier-4 feats until 17th level, but could take the rest at 9, 11, 13, and the EK could do the whole sequence in order.
Chalk up two prestige classes that it can work for. Not quite as effecient with them as a synthesist, but still better than anything else.
Do not forget the horizon walker, it makes it a viable chain for a full BAB character. Astral terrain mastery I think.Nope. That gives dimension door as a spell like ability, which is specifically not the same thing as being able to cast it. Why it specifically allows abundant step and not every dimension-door-like ability, I don't know, but that's the way it is.
Likewise for the shadowdancer (although I don't disagree with it as a house rule - I think it should be allowed).
The Eldritch knight and dragon disciple are good suggestions, though. The DD would have to wait on the tier-4 feats until 17th level, but could take the rest at 9, 11, 13, and the EK could do the whole sequence in order.
Chalk up two prestige classes that it can work for. Not quite as effecient with them as a synthesist, but still better than anything else.
A spell-like ability is still casting, the ability is exactly like the spell, not just a similar dimension door-like ability, abundant step is specifically called out to be an exception.
A shadow dancer has a similar dimension door-like ability, but it is not dimension door or even a spell-like ability, which is why it is excluded by RAW, though I agree it would be harmless to make an exception there.
Oooo, this feat chain looks fun. I was looking for something to spice up the EK that I'm building and this mIght be it! Can't wait for 9th level now.
Another decent build is the wis/rog/arcane trickster. Flank with yourself in melee or blast with touch attack spells and imp. invisibility to maximize on your sneak attack dmg.
And if you're house ruling DDoor effects to work with it, pick up the Teleportation subschool to start qualifying more quickly. You probably won't want to bother with Maneuvers with this build tho. BAB is too low.
The Shift power is really limited in this build, but is made up for by qualifying you earlier. And you still get the actual DDoor spell later.
Of course, you still need the house ruling to do this, but I think few people would have a problem with this due to the severely handicapped range of 5ft/2 wizard lvls (minimum 5 ft).
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Its for Rogues of Course!
Check it out, its all mapped out!
I've tried pretty much everything with a rogue on it, these are the best that I can find, just imagine a rogue using wand of instant enemy =p
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Thread necro...
It was intended for monks, but the writer was incompetent and in practice, monks are the absolute worst class to go for it with, due to their limited uses per day and super duper holy crap late entry.
In practice, it works well for Synth. Summoner, Eldritch Knight, and Horizon Walker. It also works well for Magus, but they already have force hook charge and bladed dash w/ spell combat, so it's of little actual use to them. Shadowdancer, even if it is allowed to take it, has such a severe per day movement limit that it'd still be a total waste on them, anyway.
I would have said magus. Except force hook charge is at level 7...
Couldnt this be a way for a fighter to psudo-pounce? Often one of the biggest hurdles for a fighter is actually getting to the target and the lack of full attacking on the turn you charge. There is also the ranger/rouge favoured enemy build. Basically because of terrain dominance counting favoured terrain as favoured enemy, they have the ability to stack stupid large favoured terrain bonuses and intant enemy anyone who is not on the list. I dont remember the build off by heart, but with a little search fu you could find it without difficulty.
Ps Im alright with the thread necro! This allowed me to figure out more about one of my favourite classes (the horizon walker) and the information he necroed it with was useful as well.
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Here was my approach. It uses Ninja, so pretty close to the rogue suggestion yet done in an entirely different way.
Here is a thread I made on the specific topic of whether other class abilities should be allowed to qualify for the Dimensional line of feats. In that thread there is a link to another thread where we got a comment from a Dev but it didn't shine a lot of light on anything. In it he said:
Seems like they put dimension door specific requirements just to keep things like demons from having too much fun with this.Well...
I wrote it a little more open ended and in development they added the dimension door limit. While I liked the idea of having it be open ended I think Steven (or Sean, not sure which) made a good call in limiting it. This is simpler and less prone to possible rules hacks.
I don't think they were worried about demons going crazy with it, I think they were worried about something far more destructive, rules lawyers.
Later in my thread Dennis later posted this:
I think you are so focused on what the letter of the rules say, that you are completely missing the spirit in which the rule was created. Can you give me any logical reason why the devs would have included Abundant Step, but excluded the Shadowdancer's ability?I am a huge fan of GMs and players taking control of their games and running things how they feel works best in their games so by all means run it how you feel is best.
That said, you are mixing up "This is cool and it's balanced..." with "The rules say..."
Would it be cool if it worked with the Shadow Dancer ability? Yes
Is it balanced within the game rules if it does work with the SD ability? Most likely.Is that what the rule as it is in the book right now says? The Magic Eight ball says No.
However, he also stated:
It is always cooler if a feat can be used by more people but it's impossible to cover every contingency, particularly where there are a lot of related abilities that do very similar but not identical things. The Shadow Dancer power, the clerical domain power, the wizard school power, sorcerer bloodline power, etc... all do dimension door type things, but they all work differently and come into play at different levels of the game.
As for the Horizon Walker ability, since it happens to be effectively identical to dimension door, it works.
Aside from all of that James Jacobs said that he would allow the Shadow Dancer ability to qualify for the Dimensional line of feats. For whatever that is worth to you...
I kind a like the idea of an archer with this you wouldn't need it most of the time but how awesome would it be to 'port inside the enemy's wind wall let loose a arrowstorm and then go back to saftey all in 1 round.
I kind a like the idea of an archer with this you wouldn't need it most of the time but how awesome would it be to 'port inside the enemy's wind wall let loose a arrowstorm and then go back to saftey all in 1 round.
Oh that looks beautiful! If it wasnt for the feat tax in an otherwise feat starved build or the level dip, I would say that was brilliant! kudos for thinking outside the box. It would also allow you to escape melee and still full attack when you really needed to.
This is my attempt at a dimesional dervish archer
16 Str +2 belt
22 Dex +2 race +1 lvl 4 +2 belt
14 Con +1 lvl 12
10 Int
14 Wis +1 lvl 8
07 Cha
Fort +14 Ref +13 Will +9
lvl Class
01 Fgt1 Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot
02 Fgt2 Weapon Focus Long Bow
03 Fgt3 Deadly Aim
04 Fgt4 Weapon Spec Long Bow +1 Dex
05 Fgt5 Endurance
06 Fgt6 Many Shot
07 HW1 Point Blank Master
08 HW2 +1 Wisdom
09 HW3 Dimensional Agility
10 Fgt7
11 Fgt8 Dimesional Assault, Imp Precise Shot
12 Fgt9 +1 Con
13 Fgt10 Dimesional Dervish, Greater Weapon focus Long Bow
AC 28 Average HP
+24x2/+24/+19/+14 1d8+19
140,000
19650 Mithril Full Plate +3 18 Ac
18700 +3 Bow
01800 Efficient Quiver
15000 Gloves of dueling
10000 Belt of Physical Might Dex, Str +2
25000 Greater Bracers of Archery
12000 Boots of Speed
08000 Ring of Protection +2
08000 Amulet of Nat Armor +2
08320 +2 Great Sword
09000 +3 Cloak of Resistance
04530 left for adamantite arrows and other basic gear
Dimension Door 5/day as a spell like.
+1 to hit and damage outsiders
+6 to hit and damage astral creatures
I doubt he is fully optimised as my theorycraft-fu is not strong but he does get to bounce around the combat area 5 times per day if the situation calls for it.
What is the 3 level dip and 4 feats spent (I'm including Endurance, cause there's no way you'd ever take that otherwise) doing for him?
He could already full attack just about every round.
You could make him an Unbreakable Fighter and get Endurance and Diehard instead of the level 1 fighter feat. But then you also never get weapon training nor ability to use gloves of duelling, so that would be a poor decision.
deux, spell combat doesn't change the fact that after teleporting with DD, your turn ends.
But again, there's FHC and BD spells, so whatever.
That actually sounds like a brilliant way to go for a monk. A level dip in wizard will most likely be a waste for the monk on most occasions, but between qualifying for dimensional assault earlier and a possible arcane bond granting something like true strike, and a high wis score for abundant steps you might have a winner. Will answer the age old question. Stand still and flurry or move insanely fast and attack once.
I feel like the best use for DA chain would be for the Aasimar Sorcerer 1/Fighter 1/EK 10/DD 8 or the Aasimar Wizard 1/Fighter 1/EK 5/Arcane Archer X...
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Dimensional Agility is the champion for Wizard (Conjuration; teleportation subschool). By level 7-8 you essentially get two move actions on of which is of a teleportation variety. Many, many shenanigans are possible using Shift and Dimensional Agility (which should be permitted together as Shift is describe as in Dim Door).
Shift won't qualify you for Dimensional Agility. You have to be able to cast DDoor, and SLAs count for that, but Shift is supernatural, not spell-like.
So you'll have to wait until you can actually cast DDoor in order to take Dimensional Agility. And since Dimensional Agility references taking actions after "casting" DDoor (rather than just after "teleporting" or after "using" DDoor), you're still restricted to spells or SLAs for getting that benefit.
Consider asking your GM for houserules.
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Need to give this to an AP so you can be like the leader of the necromongers.
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Dimensional Agility is the champion for Wizard (Conjuration; teleportation subschool). By level 7-8 you essentially get two move actions on of which is of a teleportation variety. Many, many shenanigans are possible using Shift and Dimensional Agility (which should be permitted together as Shift is describe as in Dim Door).Shift won't qualify you for Dimensional Agility. You have to be able to cast DDoor, and SLAs count for that, but Shift is supernatural, not spell-like.
So you'll have to wait until you can actually cast DDoor in order to take Dimensional Agility. And since Dimensional Agility references taking actions after "casting" DDoor (rather than just after "teleporting" or after "using" DDoor), you're still restricted to spells or SLAs for getting that benefit.
Consider asking your GM for houserules.
but shift can be done at the end of the round.
dimension door-> full attack-> dimensional shift
I'd run it on a DD synthasist build, it is the earliest you can access the Feat Chain I believe.
I just made a cavalier build with a 3 lvl dip into horizon walker that retrains into dimensional charge at lvl 9... to spirited charge the enemy with a lance... on horseback.
I do t know if it works. But why did you necro this thread to tell us?
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I just made a cavalier build with a 3 lvl dip into horizon walker that retrains into dimensional charge at lvl 9... to spirited charge the enemy with a lance... on horseback.I do t know if it works. But why did you necro this thread to tell us?
Because it works, and it's ridiculous.
[EDIT] ...And PFS legal
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We have a local PFS player who has a barb 1/arcanist 7/eldritch knight 3+ who polymorphs into a gargoyle and bamfs around hacking things apart. He has the full chain save the most useless one, so he can grant flanking to the entire party in nasty situations. I think he's up to 3 DD castings/day, and mixed with Monsterious Physique, he just wrecks face and usually walks around with a 40+ AC.
A Dimensional Dervish..
Or Assassin..
Personally i am a fan of exploiting the dimension door out of horizon walker, the best part is that you get +3 BAB from it so it fit with most classes.