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a player of mine wanted to make a poisoner build and i told him that poison sucks, but he insisted in doing it anyway. after that I started a research to see if I could make a good poison build, and came to the conclusion that the alchemist is the only good poison class.
so, I propose, can anybody here show me some good way of making a poison focused build? any class is valid. muito obrigado.
ninguém?
a player of mine wanted to make a poisoner build and i told him that poison sucks, but he insisted in doing it anyway. after that I started a research to see if I could make a good poison build, and came to the conclusion that the alchemist is the only good poison class.
so, I propose, can anybody here show me some good way of making a poison focused build? any class is valid. muito obrigado.
You might be right. The biggest problem with poison is the prohibitive price. So crafting your own is pretty much the only reasonable approach.
Your player may want to consider expanding the concept from just poison to other effects which are similar. For example, Ninja can convert sneak attack damage to ability penalties. Likewise, the Witch has some good spells and hexes that are either straight up poison or have poison-like effects. It's going to depend on what style of character he wants.
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As to the prohibitive price, as a GM you could just have a few of the defeated groups have some low level poisons. Enough that the player gets a taste of using them (so to speak) but not enough that you are giving away thousands of gold pieces. Right now the campaign I am in I was not planning on doing a poisoner Rogue but after finding a few vials of nice stuff (not super nasty, just enough to help out a bit) I may play around with the concept.
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Well I was going to do something of the following:
Beastmorph, Vivsectionist, Internal(? can't remember if it passes muster) Alchemist.
A small dip into ninja (mainly for smoke bombs and defensive offense)
Using Battle Poi.
Finally you grab the discovery that allows you to change poisons types, and the feats in ultimate combat that allow you to feint from concealment (besides some other things) and the shadow strike feat from APG.
The basic idea is you use beastmorph to get pounce and change poison types to inhaled (primarily from burning) and put the poison a smokestick that you use with the battle poi.
Basically you burn the smokestick to give yourself cover and to put the poison in the air then hold your breath (either with internal alchemist or the ninja talents) to keep from poisoning yourself while bashing your enemies with fire. The mutagen provides more strength bonus and some AC while the extracts means you have other choices to make yourself generally useful too. I would suggest taking any talent, feat or item that you can to raise the DC of your poisons and take master alchemist as well.
The poison works because it's a 'piggy back' to the smoke and doesn't rely on you hitting in combat (simply them being near you and breathing). It also benefits from the fact that multiple opponents could be affected by the poison increasing the chance that it will actually be relevant (much like some spells).
For a 'back up' weapon I recommend a short sword of subtlety.
The key here (offensively) will be the fact that you aren't relying solely on any one crappy thing to provide your offense. The poison is great if it works, if not you have fire sneak attack, if they are resistant you move to a different weapon still dealing sneak attack and having cover. If all else fails you have extracts and buffing you can do to help the party put up with you in general (because you'll probably be high maintenance) as well as your skills. You are a bit mad but not as badly as you could be since you have a good fort save, mutagens to help with bringing stats up and don't need as much intelligence as the average alchemist.
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I found an interesting idea on the quantity over quality route. (There might be a better alternative way to do this, and this only includes up to level 11, but the concept is simple)
What I used:
Class Levels
Bardic (Dervish Dancer Archetype) lvl 8
Fighter lvl 1
Alechemist level 2 (If you wish to concentrate poisons)
Items Needed
Drow Poison (37.5g per dose if you make it)
Tons of daggers (I use daggers, due to cheapness and lightness, and because they can be thrown)
Put all the points into DEX not caring about STR, hopefully this means your Dex is at 20 (24 with Cat's Grace, giving a +7 attack modifier when combined with weapon finesse)
Feats: Master Alchemist, Quickdraw, weapon finesse, two-weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting, weapon focus, greater two-weapon fighting
Later Feats:, point-blank shot, weapon training (if you use remaining levels for fighter, though personaly I would go with leveling the bard to 15 and doing two levels in rouge knife fighter archetype)
With just the lvl 11 build you have 6 attacks (3 From the Dervish Dancer, and 3 from the two weapon-fighting feats)
You have a ton of light weapons each with a drow poison applied to it. With each attack you drop the weapon (free action) in that hand and grab a another one (which is now a free action thanks to quickdraw).
Thus each attack is made with a different weapon, each with their own poison dose. If you have a concentrated dose of the drow poison the Fort saving throw is 15.
With this you get 6 attacks (with attack modifiers +14/+14/+8/+7/+4/-1) each hit then causes the opponent to roll a Fort save DC 15. If they fail any one of the fort saves they are knocked unconscious. Also because dagger are being used this can be used as ranged attacks with no penalties. The poison use from Alchemist doesn't risk self-poisoning either. Still a bit costly at 75g per hit assuming you make it yourself (and each hit might not even knock them unconscious) but not horrible either considering some of the gold amounts I've seen at that high level. This can be fixed with the lvl 6 sticky poison alchemist discovery
If you believe your enemy might have particulary high Fort, crushing despair can help that a little bit by lowering fort by two (would use an extra turn, but could help alot if needed)
(They will be unconscious for at least a minute, ample time to finish them off or tie them up)
yeah thats why you just carry tons of daggers xD
Enough for a fight and then you go and pick them up again
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Looked like going Alchemist route would be best for sticky poison and this
Malignant Poison
and this Poison Converstion
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Another option is to use the ARG, and let him play a Grippli or Vishkanya, since they secrete their own poison.
So I was looking for a good poison build myself. The DM set level at 13. This is what I came up with:
Poisoner(Rogue) 3
Summoner(Crossblood-Celestial/Sage) 8
Guild Poisoner 2
Gives me:
Poison Use(can't poison self)
Master Poisoner(convert poison type)
Sneak Attack(2d6)
Rogue Talent - Pressure Points(When sneak attack dmg also -1 DEX or STR)
Point Blank: +1 att/dmg weapon up to 30ft
Rapid Shot: 1 extra attack, -2 all att
Manyshot: 1st attack 2 arrows
Toxic Magic - Pernicious Poison: touch, 10min/lvl -4save vs poison, add 2 increments, attempts to cure at -4
Spells:Greater Invisibility, Haste, Abundant Ammunition(crafted into quiver for unlimited nonmagical arrows(but can be MW)
NOTE: Saves are based on assumption previous attacks succeed.
Round 1:
Greater Invis(always Sneak,no dex)
Round 2:
Haste
Round 3:
Pernicious Poison (-4 saves vs poison)
Round 4:
Brewed Reek Arrow DC19(sickened, -2 saves) (1d4+2d6+-1STR+poison)
Itching Arrow DC18(untyped -2 save) (1d4+poison)
Nightmare Vapor Arrow DC28 1Wis and confused for 1rd 2 consecutive saves 1800g (1d4+2d6+-1STR+poison)
Nightmare Vapor Arrow DC30 (poison stacks +2DC per additional dose) (1d4+2d6+-1STR+poison)
Gives me: 4d4 + 6d6 + -3STR + -2Wis and confused. You can substitute for your favorite poison but I recommend ones that need 2 saves because that gives you one more round to charge DC if they succeed the first. If I shoot all Nightmare Vapor Arrows Round 5 DC becomes 38 for their second save.
Unfortunately DM interpreted abundant ammo differently saying that Just the arrow returned (not the poison on it), and wouldn't allow a work around (aka crafting arrows ala raining arrows filled with Not holy water). I would have gladly taken -2 attack roll for unlimited arrows. Still if DM allows it you save a lot of money on poisons; You basically only need to craft each one 4 times.
Thoughts?
Well, if you wanted to cheese the game system, give them a magic item that allows poison, minor creation and/or fabricate (with appropriate gold-piece cost pre-paid into the item) a few times per day.
The first spell is obvious, but minor creation can be used to generate free poison (the poison is temporary, but the effect is not), and fabricate can - depending entirely on your reading - be used to create substance, if the magic item has something like 100 times the base cost of a given substance paid in advance.
If you go with the last, I'd recommend that you limit it in some way - say it only works once per week, it requires certain abilities or skill ranks, and it only creates the lowest-grade poisons for free that a character with given skill ranks could craft by taking 7 or something.
{[(2k*5*9)+(100*<most expensive poison-value you want it to create>)]/(5*7)}; apply 10, 30, 40, or 50% discount due to the extra limitations ~> a magic item that makes nice poison once per week, is expensive, but not unduly so, and has enough limitations that he'll want to keep being a poisoner.
You could put some arbitrary limitation on it, like a given person can't have more potions in existence at a time than their constitution or intelligence or dexterity or something.
If you don't want a random magic item that's easily stolen, you could do this a number of ways:
1) a "cursed" ioun stone that doesn't function unless embedded, and can't be rid of after it's been "claimed" by "an appropriate user" until that user is dead
2) a powerful being for <insert reason here> decides to give certain power to <insert person here> in the form of a magic tattoo that does this
3) aaaand, out of time.
Well, if you wanted to cheese the game system, give them a magic item that allows poison, minor creation and/or fabricate (with appropriate gold-piece cost pre-paid into the item) a few times per day.
The first spell is obvious, but minor creation can be used to generate free poison (the poison is temporary, but the effect is not), and fabricate can - depending entirely on your reading - be used to create substance, if the magic item has something like 100 times the base cost of a given substance paid in advance.
If you go with the last, I'd recommend that you limit it in some way - say it only works once per week, it requires certain abilities or skill ranks, and it only creates the lowest-grade poisons for free that a character with given skill ranks could craft by taking 7 or something.
{[(2k*5*9)+(100*<most expensive poison-value you want it to create>)]/(5*7)}; apply 10, 30, 40, or 50% discount due to the extra limitations ~> a magic item that makes nice poison once per week, is expensive, but not unduly so, and has enough limitations that he'll want to keep being a poisoner.
You could put some arbitrary limitation on it, like a given person can't have more potions in existence at a time than their constitution or intelligence or dexterity or something.
If you don't want a random magic item that's easily stolen, you could do this a number of ways:
1) a "cursed" ioun stone that doesn't function unless embedded, and can't be rid of after it's been "claimed" by "an appropriate user" until that user is dead
2) a powerful being for <insert reason here> decides to give certain power to <insert person here> in the form of a magic tattoo that does this
3) aaaand, out of time.
Figured I'd follow up on this.
Black Lotus extract (at 4.5k), burnt othur fumes (at 2.1k), deathblade (at 1.8 k), dragon bile (at 1.5 k), hemlock (at 2.5k), insanity mist (at 1.5k), king's sleep (at 5k), nightmare vapor (at 1.8k), tears of death (6.5k), ungol dust (1k), and wyvern poison (3k) are all ridiculously expensive to make for realsies via the fabricate method, as you'd pay 100 times the cost of that poison to make it at will (so, for example, 650,000 for tears of death). Oof.
However, fortunately, we don't want it at will - we want it once per week. It still might be way too much, but let's find out.
For fabricate, at will we'd need 2k*5*9 or 90k - that's presuming you provide no material components at all.
Fortunately, when we want a magic effect once per week, we divide the cost by 35 (by formula). So, 650,000+90,000=740,000 at will... but reduced to 21,142.85714285714 ~> 21,143 gold.
By making skill, feat, or class feature requirements (or all three) we can make the value of the thing (on the open market) reduced by 10-50%, depending on GM eye-balling, campaign needs, and over-all power.
Let's put the following restrictions on it:
* must have enough ranks in craft (alchemy) to successfully create the poison on a roll of 7 or less with no modifiers to make a specific poison (minimum of 4 ranks required)
* must have the poison use class feature or some other similar ability
* must have skill focus (craft [alchemy])
* the item cannot create more poison, if a particular bearer has created an amount of poison equal to their constitution or half their level, whichever is less.
* in order to use the item, it must be bonded and implanted into a character that meets the other chriteria; this otherwise functions like implanting an ioun stone, even though this is not an ioun stone (in this case, the character simply holds the item)
* once a qualified character touches the item, they cannot be rid of it without a casting remove curse, break enchantment, or similar effect (DC 20); or until they die, whichever comes first
I'd peg the above limitations to net it about a 30% discount (personally, I'd make it 50%, but I'm very "givey" as a GM, so...), making the total: <21,142.85714285714>-(30%*<21,142.85714285714>) = <21,142.85714285714>-(<6,342.857142857143>) ~=~> 14,800 gold-value item.
If it doesn't take up a "space", it'd cost double, so let's go ahead and leave it as, say, oh, hm, a ring-slot item, though if two rings are worn, this item simply becomes quiescent and unusable until the other ring is removed.
Okay, so that's with fabricate. It's pretty neat, but there's a lot to go through, and it could have (after the first two years) very long-term economy-impact implications.
Minor Creation, on the other hand, costs...
(2k*3*5) = 30k with no reductions on it (about 6k per use per day), and would net you all the practical effect of the above item, but allow you to do so twice per day for a lower cost... with no limitations at all.
If the limitations are applied, then you can get it up to three/day at a comparable (and still lower) cost, 12.6k; or 16.8k for 4/day.
But at what point does such an item really become viable?
Presuming not spending more than ~20% of your wealth by level on any one item, that means that the minor creation 3/day really isn't viable until 10th level... which is about the point that foes start routinely laughing at all of the poisons you can come up with except: dragon bile (which they make on an average of 13 or higher), purple worm poison (which they make on an average of 11 or higher), and tears of death (which they make on an average of 9 or higher)... not hard dice rolls to attain.
But really, how many poisons can you come up with via something like this?
Well... as we determined... not much.
The cheapest poison is wasp swarm poison, at a cost of "-", but I'm pretty sure that's just an oversight (as it comes directly from wasps - and you couldn't make it with minor creation anyway).
The next cheapest is small centipede poison, which, according to the PFSRD has a save of "??? save", so, uh, let's... let's just go past that to the equally expensive oil of tagit, which
The next cheapest is drow poison, at 75g per pop. It has a DC 13, and makes creature unconscious. What a great poison!
... however, that 75 g adds up... fast.
While, unlike the sleep spell, the poison has no HD limit, the spell is much more potent, because of higher hypothetical DCs... and the fact that monsters of CR 4 either tend to make the save on a 6 (for good saves) or on a 10 (for bad saves).
That means it's really not worth what you're paying for it, as a wizard can, if they want, do that same thing 4 times per day, and hit the same targets with about as much reliability as you do. Or, if they want, they can create the effect for one half of one third the cost (12.5 gold per spell)... and theirs doesn't require that they actually get into melee.
Looking at PC wealth, by 4th level, if you literally bought nothing but drow poison, you'd get a total of 80.
Wizards would get a total of 480... plus 4/day, if they wanted.
This is one reason why poison is really problematic.
Now, if you're successfully crafting it yourself, of course, that's less expensive, and if you're purchasing scrolls that's more expensive.
If a mage just purchased a scroll, it would cost 25 gold.
If you crafted poison, it would cost... 25 gold.
Of course, a wizard gets scribe scroll for free as part of their class and people need to purchase ranks in the Craft skill. And mages can scribe scrolls in 2 hours, while it takes...
The poison costs 750 silvers to make.
750/234 = 3.205128205128...
... about 3 weeks and ~ 2 days to complete.
This, of course, begs the question: why the heck are you using poison?!
For me, it's a cool concept, and I like the idea.
Assassins and subtle methods can be nifty, and can have lots of great RP-potential.
But poisons themselves are hecka-expensive, time-consuming to make, and frustrating to get to function properly.
You want to make this work?
Drop the cost somehow. Put something in his lap that makes it work.
If you allow him to make a poison-focused character, allow him to make a functional character.
The reason for the poison prices make little sense, unless you consider that they're marked up for black-market dealings or something. I'd say that doubles or even triples the price... but the crafting price, now that's half the normal cost!
... at least if you want to allow him to make his concept viable.
Otherwise, he'll have a metric ton of disappointments and frustration pouring most of his wealth into something that doesn't function the way he wants it to.
(So, I'd totally buck for a free magic item as noted above... it's what I'd do.)
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@Zwordsman,
There are plenty of cheap poisons with good dc's.....
Also, I had no intention of using shuriken when I could use poison bombs (ninja tricks) and my fist which retain the poison for no fewer than two hits. In essence, you can poison every fight (though you wouldn't) at medium levels at a pretty inexpensive cost of a few hundred dgp with poisons that have dc's ranging from a base of around 11 or 13 through 17 if memory serves. Being able to up those dc's by 2 or more and have a dose apply for 2-4 attacks or toss it in a bomb to affect a group sounds like a deal to me.
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There are plenty of cheap poisons with good dc's.....
No, there aren't. Look at the poison list.
Cheapest with a price is 75g, with a DC 13. Most bestiaries best this on a 50/50 chance by CR 4.
(Incidentally, good fortitude save means: +4 by 4th level, such that most NPC guards (level 4 warriors) you'd be facing, without CON bonus, would make it 55% of the time by the time you're effectively purchasing said poison.)
The better DCs are often multiple thousands of gold per use.
Giant Wasp, Large Scorpion Venom, Malyass Rootpaste, Sassone Leaf Residue, and Shadow Essence are nearly the best purchase for their DC (roughly 200-300, for DCs of 16-18), but Malyass Rootpaste and Sasson Leaf Residue have a 1 minute onset time.
That leaves you with three: Giant Wasp (DC 18, 250g), Large Scorpion Venom (DC 17, 200g), and Shadow Essence (DC 17, 250g)
These are pretty decent, but let's look at what they do:
- Giant Wasp (DC 18, 250g): 1d2 strength damage per round for up to six rounds, if the 1 save isn't made
- Large Scorpion Venom (DC 17, 200g): 1d2 strength damage per round for up to six rounds, if the 1 save isn't made
- Shadow Essence (DC 17, 250g): 1 strength drain, 1d2 strength damage for the remaining 5 rounds, if the 1 save isn't made
That's not terrible, but it's underwhelming, especially considering the literal weeks it'll take you to make those things (barring liberal use of fabricate of course).
And what are those DCs good for, enemy-wise?
They're pretty solid for 4th level - there's a 50/50 chance of affecting a creature's good save at least once, and requires a 15 or higher for a typical creature's poor save, but:
- 5th level: good save (8), poor save (4)
- 6th level: good save (9), poor save (5)
- 7th level: good save (10), poor save (6)
- 8th level: good save (11), poor save (7)
And that's the cut-off point. They're a less-than-50/50 chance against creatures with poor saves from that point out.
Further, what do those effects do?
Functionally, for most PC-use purposes, Giant Wasp and Shadow Essence are the same, save that Giant Wasp has the potential to deal one more ability damage and has 1 higher DC - so better in every way, for the same price.
It can deal a maximum of 6-12 strength damage. That's pretty swell!
There are two problems, however: the average of 9 strength damage they deal is enough to drop most typical NPC mages only after all six rounds... leaving you waiting for that effect to go off until then... and never affects the fighting prowess of most of them during that time.
Those whose fighting prowess it would tend to strongly affect, are those who are very likely to save before hand, due to a solid fortitude save. You have a 50% chance to affect a typical 4th level threat; 45% chance to affect a typical 5th level threat; 40% chance for a typical 6th level threat; 35% chance for a typical 7th level threat, and 30% chance for a typical 8th level threat. These percentages are the likelihood of them being affected each round. So, at most, if you do anything at all, you're likely inflicting a 1 point reduction in their attack and damage (or 2 pts on a critical).
This is terrible, especially since it only affects a single target.
At fourth level, mages are routinely doing more relative damage to end the fight more rapidly to more creatures than poison does to a single creature in less time with blasting... which is generally considered to be one of the least-optimal forms of casting (until Dazing Spell, but that's another story).
At fourth level, most martials are ending the encounter - one way or the other - within a few rounds, by sheer power-house damage.
Poison is simply too slow for most game styles.
And it's expensive. Even with crafting - which takes forever - you're going to be putting a sizable chunk of your wealth into doing what a wizard does more rapidly, and reliably for free, every day, if they want.
Note that the above spells are not the ones wizards generally choose, because they're not the ones that are the most effective... even though they're generally more effective than the poisons they replace in-battle.
Please hear me out. I like the idea of a poisoner. I want it to work.
But the expense is painful and it's instantly overshadowed by other classes choosing less-than-optimal choices for their profession.
EDIT: What I'm trying to say is that the GM needs to work with the player in order to make these things viable. I certainly would.
I like your words and would hear more.
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Poison is awful in PF. Its too cost prohibitive and take too long to craft. HE SHOULD ABSOLUTELY NOT DO THIS UNLESS HE HATES HIS OWN GUTS! Others have already explained why, so I won't waste my time on that.
Ok, that being said, this is what he needs since he's insisted:
Race:
Nagaji: Only race for a poisoner. Main reason being FCB: Add +1 on Craft (alchemy) checks to craft poison and +1/3 on the DCs of poisons the alchemist creates. The increase in DC is going to be really needed and very powerful.
Core Class:
Vivisectionist Alchemist (I actually like beastmorph but it looses a lot of the important poison stuff, if your race already has poison immunity it may be worth looking at though) 10
Traits:
Potent Concoctions - increase dc of 2 poisons by 1. Pick one low level poison and one high level poison.
Feats/Discoveries:
1) Feat: Poison Focus: All poisons you make DC increases by 1.
2) Discovery: Concentrate Poison: I'm pretty torn on this actually. +2 is a big deal, but the poisons wasted after an hour(OUCH!), and its very expensive for only a +2. Still, you need every advantage you can get. If you use this on Drow Poison, and picked it as your potent concoction it'd run you 50 gold (assuming self brewing) for a DC 17 fort save. While still relatively expensive for the level, the DC is pretty solid at that point, and that is the cheapest poison you can make. Unconscious for a minute is pretty much death as well, so this is probably the most solid early level poison, and probably one he should pick with potent concoction. It should be good through level 4ish, and decent through level 7. With Malignant Poison it may even be alright at level 10 for another level or two.
3) Feat: Siphon Poison - Draw from allies if injured and get back from dead enemies. Note: With Sticky Poison he may be able to get more doses back than he used. It may be a little cheesy but I believe he'll need all the help he can get so you should probably allow it. For real cheese he could even do it on purpose to a KO'd enemy assuming he had a good chance of landing the poison, though he'd kill him eventually, and you may want to consider that a cou de gras or he could use a low damage weapon and do non lethal and gets a ton of poison.
5) Feat: Master Alchemist: Drastically reduce time to make poison, not money though unfortunately.
6) Discovery: Sticky Poison: Mo Poison per hit saves mo money
7) Feat: Extra Discovery: Poison Conversion: Makes poisons contact, very nice.
8) Discovery: Celestial Poisons - hurt undead and outsiders with poison.
9) Feat: Toxicological Timing - reduce onset down by one step. All of a sudden all those once/minute poisons become one/round, making them viable.
10) Discovery: Malignant Poison - Increase DC for a few minutes. Basically use it right before going in somewhere.
11) Feat: Improved Toxicological Timing - same as above but for onset period. Now something like Dark Reaver Poison or Tears of Death are combat viable.
Equipment
Poisoners Jacket - expensive but worth it (maybe/probably) in the long run.
Ok, so after this he can continue alchemist, but may want to look at Guild Poisoner:
The class isn't great by any means, but has a few unique things, which I outline below. He could actually enter the class at 6th level, but I recommend delaying because I think Malignant Poisons is straight better. Maybe he disagrees though. Anyway, it gets
1) Toxic Tricks: You'll have most of these, but these expand the list some, and give access to a few you don't have.
2) Level 3 Toxic Manufactory - Combined with Master Alchemist you can start REALLY pumping out the poisons, time is no longer really a factor, unfortunately it does nothing for money.
3) Level 5 Treacherous Toxin - By the time you get this (level 15) you can sacrifice up to 6 SA dice. Combined with Malignant Poison that can increase the DC by up to 10(11 with poison focus, 12 if potent concoction). This MAY be enough that the poison has a decent chance of sticking. According to the Monster by CR table a good save at this level is 18, and a bad is 13. Poison DC's range from 11 to 26, but have very few above 20. 18 is a pretty solid poison number, so pushing it to 30 gives it a decent chance of landing.
4) Level 6 Swift Poisoning - This is strictly better than anyone else's swift poisoning because it includes pulling out the poison, not just applying it.
I would probably drop the class after 6th, I see very little reason to stay in there and treacherous toxin will get more use from alchemist again as you pump up SA dice.
Potential Traits:
Black Sheep: (Apothecarist)
3rd Party: If you'll allow it.
Frugal Crafting - I think its too strong, but if you only let it apply to mundane crafting for the alchemist its a good feat, and probably worth it for him if he can fit it in.
Anyway, that's my take on a poison build. Probably missed something somewhere but that's a pretty solid poison build. Please note I still think its a terrible idea. Perhaps you can let him use Knowledge: Nature to gather a small amount of components while overland traveling or something.
I did make a poisoner build once... She was a Kitsune Ninja/Guild Poisoner and utilized slight of hand and Adder Strike and Pin-Point Poisoner to apply poisons subtly... Simply coat your glove in contact poison that takes a moment to kick in, the watch as he dies when you walk away before anybody can even know (walk away and using vanishing trick is awesome)
See now I feel bad. My build was less optimal than this. I went a different route (more quantity vs quality):
Race: Kobold, Constitution 18, Good Dex
Feats: Tail Terror, Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Pressure Point (-1Str), Toxic Spell-Pernicious Poison (-4 vs poison)
Class: Poisoner/Sorcerer(Crossblooded-Nanite/Serpentine)/Guild Poisoner
Magic Items(optional): Ring Greater,Invis, Spell Storing Weapon (Pernicious Poison)
+ Alchemy! :D
We'll say for easy math we're at least level 8.
Round 1:
Party Member(s)/Cohort: Throw Brewed Reek(20gp) & Itching Powder(30gp)
Sickened2d6rd(-2save,att,dmg,skill,ability) & typeless (-2save,att,skill,ability) unless wash for 1 round ... and what are the odds any of the monsters are carrying soap?
You: 3 manufactured attacks (two weapons + natural attack w/tail attachment) with Nanite Strike + 1 natural (Serpent's Fang), both poison (DC 10+1/2CL+ConMod)
Assuming Alchemy Items and Pernicious Poison weapon hits you start out with -8 vs poison, so 10+4+4+(-8) is save DC26 round 1. Plus if the other weapons hit (poison stack) you're looking at another -4 :).
So for 50gp
Round 1: SneakAttack+4Str(PressurePoint)+4d2Con+3d2Str
Round 2: Save DC is 32-34, unless you want to be mean and hit them again then it's 38-42 (unless my math is way off?)
Bear in mind, if you don't use magic items or get any help it's more like:
Round 1: Greater, Invis
Round 2: Brewed Reek & Itching Powder (sneak dmg?)
Round 3: Pernicious Poison
Round 4: See above
and of course if you actually want to Pay for poisons you can always substitute Nanite Strike on your 3 weapons for Actual poison (Sasson Leaf Residue 6d12hp dmg/rd, or Nightmare Vapor 3Wis/rd+Confuse, anyone?)
Only question I would ask is, can you poison your magic items AND use Nanite Strike? 'cause then it just gets silly...er :)
(Edit: Combining Brewed Reek, Itching Powder, and Pernicious Poison with Under a Bleeding Sun's build would also be quite effective, I imagine)
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Silent, only issue then is you only get poison by lvl 8-10 depending on if you get an archetype.
If you as GM would allow it, get him to have some class levels of druid or similar animal companion giving class and allow them to milk venom from their companion. Essentially free poison so cost is not an issue and you can just limit it yourself by saying they can only milk X/day.
OR get your Fighter (they've got CON and feats to spare right?) to get Eldritch Heritage and milk HIM!
(Edit: Or her, but then it gets awkward)
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So a little while ago Zwordsman called me out on my "summoner" typo when I meant sorcerer...but then I was curious to see the viability of a Summoner Poisoner build; up to level 13 (when everything resolves). This eliminates the cost AND DC issues associated with poisoners (but does limit you to just Con & Str for free). Decided to give Eidolon EWP(Elven Curved Blade) for the crit range and it wields small size (until he gets Animal Growth) to multiwield 1d8 18-20/x2
Tactics:
Throw: Brewed Reek (sickened -2 saves)& Itching Powder (-2 saves typeless)
Attack: B-bite(1d6), TS-tail slap (1d6), T-Tentacle (1d4), ,CBE-Curved Blade, Elven(1d8small/1d10medium), PB(DC/dmg)-Poison bite, TSP-Tail/Sting/Poison(DC/dmg)
Summon: Starting at SLA Summon Monster II (Elemental) and (speaking appropriate language) command to throw debuffs; then Summon Eidolon
UMD: Buff(+StatSpells,AnimalGrowth)/Debuff(PerniciousPoison)/Heal wands, etc.
The major benchmarks occur at 7 (when your eidolon can begin poisoning), 10 (when you get two extra arms), 13 (when all your poison abilities max out and you can craft Belt of Physical Perfection +6 and Belt of Animal Growth) and 18 (when you get a total of 8 arms). I'm sure this is not maximized (equipment/spells) and I'm sure I made several calculation errors, but this is as far as I got before I hit this stage:
Summoner (1)
Human (+2Con)
Trait: Harvester: "Additionally, you do not risk poisoning yourself whenever you handle or apply poison taken from a venomous creature."
25Point Buy: 10Str/16Dex/19Con/12Int/10Wis/10Cha
Languages: Common, Auran, Terran, Ignan(@lvl2), Aquan(@lvl2)
Alternate Traits: Focused Study: 1st(Kn:Engineering), 8th(Diplomacy), 16th(Perception)
Feat: Eldritch Heritage: Nanite Bloodline - Nanite Strike (Ex)
Tactics: Attackx2:DC15(+4)/1StrDmg,cure1save
Skills: Disable Device(DD)1, Handle Animal(HA)1,Perception(P)1,Slight of Hand(SoH)1,Spellcraft(Sc)1,Use Magic Device(UMD)1.
Eidolon:Serpentine HD1d10/Str12/Dex16/Con13/Int7/Wis10/Cha11
Evolutions: Climb, Bite(reach), Tail(slap), 2pt.Limbs(arms)x1, 1pt.Tentacle
Feat: Exotic Weapon Proficiency(EWP)(Curved Blade, Elven(CBE))
Skills: Perception(P)1,Stealth(St)1,Survival(Su)1,Use Magic Device(UMD)1
Tactics: Throw, Attack(B,TS,T,EBx2)
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Summoner(2)
Tactics: Attackx2:DC15(+4)/1StrDmg,cure1save
Skills: DD1, HA1,Linguistics(L)(Ignan,Aquan)2,P2,SoH1,Sc2,UMD2.(Continue to max Spellcraft and UMD)
Eidolon(2) HD2/Str13/Dex17/Con13/Int7/Wis10/Cha11
Evolutions: Climb, Bite(reach), Tail(slap), 2pt.Limbs(arms)x1, 1pt.Tentacle,1pt.Skilled(+8UMD)
Feat/Skills: EWP(CBE)/P2,St2,Su2,UMD2+8
Tactics: Throw, Attack(B,TS,T,CBEx2), UMD
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Summoner(3)
Feat: Spell Focus(Conjuration)(+1DC vs Conj)
Tactics: Attackx2:DC15(+4)/1StrDmg,cure1save
Eidolon(3) HD3/Str13/Dex17/Con13/Int7/Wis10/Cha11
Evolutions: Climb, Bite(reach), Tail(slap), 2pt.Limbs(arms)x2,1pt.Skilled(+8UMD)
Feat/Skills: EWP(CBE),Multiweapon Fighting(MwF)/P2,St3,Su3,UMD3+8
Tactics: Throw, Attack(B,TS,T,CBEx4)
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Summoner(4) CON20(+5) (Pernicious Poison Wand (PPW) -4 save vs poison, by wiz or Eidolon UMD)
Spell: Summon Eidolon
Tactics: Summon, Attackx2:DC16(+8)/1StrDmg,cure1save
Eidolon(4) HD3/Str13/Dex17/Con13/Int7/Wis10/Cha11
Evolutions: Climb, Bite(reach), Tail(slap), 2pt.Limbs(arms)x3, 1pt.Skilled(+8UMD)
Feat/Skills: EWP(CBE),(MwF)/P4,St4,Su4,UMD4+8
Tactics: UMD, Attack(B,TS,T,CBEx6)
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Summoner(5)
Feat:Augment Summoning(+4 Str/Con Summoned Creatures)
Tactics: Summon, Attackx2:DC17(+8)/1StrDmg,cure1save
Eidolon(5) HD4/Str18/Dex18/Con18/Int7/Wis10/Cha11
Evolutions: Climb, Bite(reach), Tail(slap), 2pt.Limbs(arms)x3, 1pt.Tentacle,1pt.Skilled(+8UMD)
Feat/Skills: EWP(CBE),(MwF)/P4,St4,Su4,UMD4+8
Tactics: UMD, Attack(B,TS,T,CBEx6)
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Summoner(6)
Tactics: Summon, Attackx2:DC17(+8)/1StrDmg,cure1save
Eidolon(6) HD5/Str18/Dex18/Con18/Int7/Wis10/Cha11
Evolutions: Climb, Bite(reach), Tail(slap), 2pt.Limbs(arms)x3, 1pt.Tentacle,1pt.Skilled(+8UMD)
Feat/Skills: EWP(CBE),(MwF)/P6,St6,Su6,UMD6+8
Tactics: UMD, Attack(B,TS,Tx2,CBEx6)
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Summoner(7)
Feat:Weapon Finesse
Tactics: Summon, Attackx2:DR/magic, DC18(+8)/1d2Str,cure1save
Eidolon(7) HD6/Str19/Dex19/Con18/Int7/Wis10/Cha11
Evolutions: Climb, Bite(2pt.poison), Tail(3pt.Sting/Poison), 4pt.Tail/Sting/Poison(TSP)x1,1pt.Skilled(+8UMD)
Feat/Skills: EWP(CBE), MwF, Skill Focus(UMD+3)/P7,St7,Su7,UMD7+11
Tactics: Attack(PB(18(+8)/1d4Str),TSP(DC18(+8)/1d4Str)x2)
Eidolon Poison—injury; save Fort DC 10 + 1/2HD + ConMod; 1/rd for 4rds; effect 1d4StrDmg(+2EvoPts ConDmg); cure 1 save.
Benchmark:
Things begin to resolve
Each successful hit with poison adds +2 DC & duration, damage at this point is 1-4Con 5-16Str DC26-30 per round. Can remove the PB attack to do ConDmg instead.
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Summoner(8) CON21(+5)
Tactics: Summon, Attackx2:DR/magic, DC18(+8)/1d2Str,cure1save
Eidolon(8) HD6/Str19/Dex19/Con20/Int7/Wis10/Cha11
Evolutions: Climb, Bite(2pt.poison), Tail(3pt.Sting/Poison), 4pt.Tail/Sting/Poison(TSP)x1,2pt.Ability Increase(Con)
Feat/Skills: EWP(CBE), MwF, SF(UMD+3)/P8,St8,Su8,UMD8+3
Tactics: Attack(PB(19(+8)/1d4Str),TSP(DC19(+8)/1d4Str)x2)
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Summoner(9)
Feat: Eldritch Heritage - Serpentine - Serpent's Fang (Ex): At 13th level, your poison damage increases to 1d4 Con. You can use your fangs for a number of rounds per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.
Tactics: Summon, Bitex1:DR/magic,DC19(+8)/1d2Con,cure2saves, Attackx2:DR/magic,DC19(+8)/1d2Str+1d2Con,cure1save
Eidolon(9) HD7/Str19/Dex19/Con18/Int7/Wis10/Cha11
Evolutions: Climb, Bite(2pt.poison), Tail(3pt.Sting/Poison), 4pt.Tail/Sting/Poison(TSP)x2
Feat/Skills: EWP(CBE), MwF, SF(UMD+3),MultiAttack(MA)/P9,St9,Su9,UMD9+3
Tactics: Attack(PB(19(+8)/1d4Str),TSP(DC19(+8)/1d4Str)x3)
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Summoner(10)
Tactics: Summon, Bitex1:DR/magic,DC19(+8)/1d2Con,cure2saves, Attackx4(Aspect):DR/magic,DC19(+8)/1d2Str+1d2Con,cure1save
Eidolon(10) HD8/Str20/Dex20/Con18/Int7/Wis10/Cha11
Evolutions: Climb, Bite(2pt.poison), Tail(3pt.Sting/Poison), 4pt.Tail/Sting/Poison(TSP)x1, 2pt.Aspectx1,2pt.Limbs(arms)x1,Skilled(+8UMD)
Feat/Skills: EWP(CBE), MwF, SF(UMD+3),MA/P10,St10,Su10,UMD10+3
Tactics: UMD,Attack(PB(20(+8)/1d4Str),TSP(DC20(+8)/1d4Str)x2),CBEx2
Benchmark:
Now both your and your eidolon are doing a combined 5-10Con 7-20Str DC32-33 per round (and of course you can replace the Str Dmg for 2d4Con at the cost of your weapon attacks).
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Summoner(11)
Feat: Multiweapon Fighting
Tactics: Summon, Bitex1:DR/magic,DC20(+8)/1d2Con,cure2saves, Attackx4(Aspect):DR/magic,DC20(+8)/1d2Str+1d2Con,cure1save
Eidolon(11) HD8/Str20/Dex20/Con19/Int7/Wis10/Cha11
Evolutions: Climb, Bite(2pt.poison), Tail(3pt.Sting/Poison), 4pt.Tail/Sting/Poison(TSP)x2,2pt.Aspectx1
Feat/Skills: EWP(CBE), MwF, SF(UMD+3),MA/P11,St11,Su11,UMD11+3
Tactics: Attack(PB(20(+8)/1d4Str),TSP(DC20(+8)/1d4Str)x2)
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Summoner(12) CON22(+6)
Tactics: Summon, Bitex1:DR/magic,DC21(+8)/1d2Con,cure2saves, Attackx4(Aspect):DR/magic,DC21(+8)/1d2Str+1d2Con,cure1save
Eidolon(12) HD9/Str21/Dex21/Con19/Int7/Wis10/Cha11
Evolutions: Climb, Bite(2pt.poison), Tail(3pt.Sting/Poison), 4pt.Tail/Sting/Poison(TSP)x2,2pt.Aspectx1,Skilled(+8UMD)
Feat/Skills: EWP(CBE), MwF, SF(UMD+3),MA/P12,St12,Su12,UMD12+11
Tactics: UMD,Attack(PB(21(+8)/1d4Str),TSP(DC21(+8)/1d4Str)x2)
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Summoner(13)
Feat: Craft Wondrous Item (Spellcraft and UMD should be maxed)
Belt of Physical Perfection 144,000 gp (craft 77,000g)(+6STR/DEX/CON)
Tactics: Summon, Bitex1:DR/magic,DC24(+8)/1d4Con,cure2saves, Attackx4(Aspect):DR/magic,DC24(+8)/1d2Str+1d2Con,cure2save
Eidolon(13) HD10/Str29/Dex19/Con23/Int7/Wis10/Cha11
Collar of Animal Growth 48,619g (24,310g) 3/day C-word "Bamf!" Benefit: Large/+8STR/+4CON/-2DEX/NatAC+2/Reach
Evolutions: Climb, Bite(2pt.poison), Tail(3pt.Sting/Poison), 4pt.Tail/Sting/Poison(TSP)x2,2pt.Aspectx1,2pt.Limbs(arms)x1
Feat/Skills: EWP(CBE), MwF, SF(UMD+6),MA/P13,St13,Su13,UMD13+6
Tactics: UMD,Attack(PB(23(+8)/1d4Str),TSP(DC23(+8)/1d4Str)x2),CBEx2
Benchmark:
Your poison attacks have finally maxed out and the ability to craft Belt and Collar 2 levels earlier than buying give big boost to DCs.
Now both your and your eidolon are doing a combined 5-12Con 7-20Str DC37-38 per round
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Next major benchmark is at 18 when you get 4 more arms (total 8) for an extra 4d2Str+4d2Con.
Play a Vishkanya with high Con? They can poison their blades as a Swift Action.
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Take a look a this archetype: Veneficus Witch
Misfortune, an improved familiar with a wand of ill omen and evil eye will drastically improve your success rate.
Assuming no 3rd party (Steel Serpent homeboys represent), a Nagaji Alchemist could get up some solid DCs.
Take the favored Class bonus. Call it 10th level, that's +5 to the DC.
Concentrate Poison, +2.
Combine with Malignant Poison (+4 DC) and Sticky Poison (lasts a number of rounds = to Int mod).
Take Poison Focus (+1 DC) and a Virulent Weapon I swear there used to be a Virulent weapon property. It added your weapon Enhancement to Poison DCs. I just can't find it! I was certain it was an ACG weapon property...
Anywho.
Even with something cheap like Large Scorpion Venom (at only 200 gp to purchase and a solid DC 17 save, it's nice) you're looking at a DC 29 save, and an increased duration and +2 to DC for every hit you make on them that round, or multiple chances to get them to fail. So 1/round for 11 rounds, save or take 1d2 Str damage. Str to 0 = Paralysis, so really they're just as dead either way, and it's so much cheaper than something like Deathblade (though if you can spare the 3600 gp per Concentrated dose, you can relaly f~## up someone's day).
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This is probably helpful given the question..The build advice you posted a link to says that grippli are bad alchemist and doesn't give a reason. I think the stealth alchemist build is awesome and it requires a grippli. 18 plus dex mod stealth at level 2 and it just keeps going up from there. If instead off using the archetypes the build recommends you go with vivisectionist and bogborn alchemist you get sneak attack with that this can out rouge any rouge and do lots of other cool stuff as well
I stand by the opinion that the racials of the grippli just aren't up to snuff with other small races. Bogborn is nothing that stands out, and you can make an alchemist who outrogues a rogue with any of these with vivisectionist, it doesn't take a specific build to do so.
The stealth alchemist does not even a little bit require a grippli, and I'm not sure why you think it does. They have a situational racial bonus to stealth (aside from their natural bonus from being small) which isn't anything other races don't do better, and aside from a +2 wisdom to help with the weak will save (as well as sharing the same -2 strength issues that other small races already have), there's not much to see here.
Bogborn Alchemist is also a terrible archetype, I'm not sure why you're suggesting it. If you want a racial archetype that helps stealth, Saboteur is LEAGUES better than it with a mutagen focused on stealth as well as a climb speed.
No one's saying steath alchemist are bad, they're amazing, probably the best at stealth in the game, but grippli are bad alchemist, no question.
And they're also not any better with poison than anyone else, so not sure why you brought that up in this thread. My guide has a discussion thread listed in the beginning of it if you'd like to discuss this further there.