Magus vs. Arcane Duelist


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The OP honestly ignored a lot of basic points that were true even back when the thread was posted. For example, the AC section points out that eventually a magic shield will surpass the Shield spell... without making note of the fact that that gives the Magus almost 10,000 gold to spend over the Bard just to reach equivalency. Crafting the bonded weapon to boost it over the Black Blade was noted... putting aside that the Black Blade is both not that great, that's comparing a Magus who invested zero resources into a weapon to a Bard who's investing 25,000 for parity at level 20... and is also ignoring the benefits of arcane pool enhancement that means that the Magus has, come level 17, a +10 weapon for free. Factoring in the crafting of the Duelist that translates to 100,000 gold. It honestly reads as a very biased comparison, because it presents any instance of the Magus spending resources as a significant prospect but glosses over the Bard doing the same. Not to mention totally ignoring the ability that makes the Magus what it is and giving Spell Combat one line of mention.

That aside...

Magus is a better damage dealer with or without spells. Flamboyant Arcana/Arcane Deed pushes the damage of a Magus + rapier (or Slashing Grace'd weapon) up very close to the damage of a two-handed power attacker, if both are at the same attacking stat. Only reason it's not there is the crits. Once you include Spell Combat, the Magus swings ahead hard.

Allegro... is not as great as it may seem. The Bard can haste himself at level four! Except it costs two standard actions to start and the Magus could get in an extra attack per round all day two levels earlier. He can make that attack count for a lot more at level four too-- Frigid Touch is a wonderful spell.

If the Duelist swings ahead it's going to be by using the one combat style that the Magus can't touch: archery. But any Arcane Duelist who wants to mix it up in melee should be seriously looking at the Magus, because unless he's absolutely decided to dedicate his life to being a combination of front-liner and supporter the Magus will do his job better.


Has anyone ever tried to build the Arcane Duelist as a reach character? At least, that's always the first thing I think of with feats like Disruptive as bonus and is legitimately something you can do with the AD that you can't do with the Magus.


You can build a magus as a reach character. You can use a whip for starters, but you can also buff your range up with spells and other options.


Magus virtually has to go whip to go reach with any consistency. They can do it though.

Archery is really the only relevant style Arcane Duelist has over Magus. It's also a very strong style, so if we're talking archer Duelist vs. Magus the Duelist might come out ahead. Depends a lot on the campaign and level, 'cause once the Magus can pull off teleports during full attacks range matters a tad less.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I've played both in PFS and enjoyed doing so.

They are vastly different in play, despite the superficial simmilarities.

While the Magus can't use a shield, he has use of the shield spell, and more importantly hit denying spells such as Mirror Image, Blur, and Displacement.

The Arcane Duelist can boost his weapon with performance like the Magus does with his arcane pool, but that's at the cost of boosting his party with performances such as Inspire Courage. The biggest difference is that the Bard doesn't have the Magus' trump card of spellstrike. And the Arcane Duelist gives up much of the knowledge and skill advantages of the standard Bard.


In the 1st campaign I was a player a Arcane Duelist, and one of the other played a Magus.

I can tell you that Arcane Duelist+Elf+Composed Long Bow+Archer Feats+Bard Buff makes one mean player.


kestral287 wrote:

Magus virtually has to go whip to go reach with any consistency. They can do it though.

Archery is really the only relevant style Arcane Duelist has over Magus. It's also a very strong style, so if we're talking archer Duelist vs. Magus the Duelist might come out ahead. Depends a lot on the campaign and level, 'cause once the Magus can pull off teleports during full attacks range matters a tad less.

I would argue that the AD still has "reach build" as a niche the Magus doesn't cover, because you don't threaten an area with a whip, which is the whole point of 90% of the reach characters I've ever seen in play (and is the point of 100% of them that have feats like Disruptive).

If I'm building a reach-weapon AD, what I'm going for is a character who creates this zone around them in which it's obnoxious to cast spells and which is non-trivial to step out of. I don't see a good way to do that with the Magus. I don't know that I'd build a fighter this way either, but with the AD's bonus feats?

Scarab Sages

You do threaten at reach with whip mastery. It's a feat tax, but it's worth paying if you are going the whip route.


kestral287 wrote:
Magus virtually has to go whip to go reach with any consistency. They can do it though.

Actually, i am currently playing a STR based magus who is wielding an heirloom weapon (original trait) glaive-guisarme who is a veritable meatgrinder, i roll at a +7 at level one, after getting some BAB i am now level 3 and still going hard, i pretty much have to roll below a 10 to miss, we arent high enough level for iteratives to become an issue yet so i can just cast a Chill Touch and smack them just as easily as i could on a full attack

Dire Mongoose wrote:
I would argue that the AD still has "reach build" as a niche the Magus doesn't cover, because you don't threaten an area with a whip, which is the whole point of 90% of the reach characters I've ever seen in play (and is the point of 100% of them that have feats like Disruptive).

I am currently playing a reach magus in Jade Regent with a glaive-guisarme, it works fine.

Quote:
Archery is really the only relevant style Arcane Duelist has over Magus. It's also a very strong style, so if we're talking archer Duelist vs. Magus the Duelist might come out ahead. Depends a lot on the campaign and level, 'cause once the Magus can pull off teleports during full attacks range matters a tad less.

teleports during full attacks? May i ask how? :)


Spell Combat -> Dimension Door, proceed to full attack.

Spell Combat is all one action so D-Door's clause about not taking any more actions doesn't trigger; you're using the same action that cast the spell in the first place.


kestral287 wrote:

Spell Combat -> Dimension Door, proceed to full attack.

Spell Combat is all one action so D-Door's clause about not taking any more actions doesn't trigger; you're using the same action that cast the spell in the first place.

ah i see, shame, i dont think i am able to use spell combat

Scarab Sages

kestral287 wrote:

Spell Combat -> Dimension Door, proceed to full attack.

Spell Combat is all one action so D-Door's clause about not taking any more actions doesn't trigger; you're using the same action that cast the spell in the first place.

Still doesnt work, DD stops you from taking any further actions on your turn. You need dimensional agility. Or you could spell combat bladed dash instead


Arcane Duelist sounds like a partial replacement for Eldritch Knight, which got nerfed hard by the recent SLA FAQ. Any way to get an Arcane Duelist to pick up Sorcerer/Wizard spells that are not on the normal Bard spell list (for battlefield control), other than dipping 2 levels of Pathfinder Savant (which is just bad if you are not a full caster)?


Imbicatus wrote:
kestral287 wrote:

Spell Combat -> Dimension Door, proceed to full attack.

Spell Combat is all one action so D-Door's clause about not taking any more actions doesn't trigger; you're using the same action that cast the spell in the first place.

Still doesnt work, DD stops you from taking any further actions on your turn. You need dimensional agility. Or you could spell combat bladed dash instead

Indeed, Dimension Door does say-- to quote it exactly-- "After using this spell, you can't take any other actions until your next turn".

What other actions are being taken? The answer is none. The same action that was used to cast Dimension Door is being used to deliver your attacks.

Now, you can't Spell Combat D-Door, full attack, cast a Quickened spell. That would be taking another action. If you have Mythic Haste available, or the Amazing Initiative Mythic ability, you can't do Dimension Door -> full attack -> your extra move/standard action. You can even make a case for a Contingent Action spell failing if it's triggered between the casting of D-Door and the start of your next turn (that one's kind of weird though).

But Spell Combat is one action to do two things. There is no "other" action being taken for D-Door to prevent. This is really no different from, say, if you're staggered and want to move and draw a weapon (with at least +1 BAB). Can you do that? Sure, because Staggered is limiting your actions per round but drawing the weapon is part of a larger action.

... Well, okay, looking over the rules it's a little different from the staggered-move thing because drawing a weapon while moving is a free action instead of just part of the move action. But it's close enough for our purposes.

Does it have some queso in it? Sure. Is it RAW-legal? Yes. Would I ask my GM before I tried it in a game? Well, he's the one that pointed it out to me but if I got a new GM then yes. Does this make Dimensional Agility look really, really silly? Yup!


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
UnArcaneElection wrote:

Arcane Duelist sounds like a partial replacement for Eldritch Knight, which got nerfed hard by the recent SLA FAQ. Any way to get an Arcane Duelist to pick up Sorcerer/Wizard spells that are not on the normal Bard spell list (for battlefield control), other than dipping 2 levels of Pathfinder Savant (which is just bad if you are not a full caster)?

Other than being Samsaran, I don't know of any major ways. Magician does not stack with Arcane Duelist, unfortunately.


I kinda don't really see the Arcane Duelist's feat list as all that impressive, TBH. I think it all kinda just...falls off at higher levels.

Concentration checks eventually become trivial to make, and Disruptive doesn't really rise with level (would be better if it rose with BAB or something) which also means that Spellbreaker doesn't really ever see much use.

Of course, the Magus can also select Disruptive and Spellbreaker as Arcana, getting the second 1 level before either the AD or the fighter, so either way it's a moot point.

As for the Penetrating Strike, it really just doesn't go far enough. It reduces DR by 5, it doesn't negate them. And you get it at a level where you should already have easy access to a +5 blade anyway. Bypassing DR >>> reducing DR.

Still, I can't lie, the ability to reduce typeless DR/- by 5 with the Greater version is quite the boon. But it comes in at level 18, where the Magus can select arcana like Bane Blade and get Bane on everything, giving him the ability to bypass even DR/Epic with anything he picks up, completely for free.

He could have gotten Bane Blade at level 15, but it's probably much better to use your levle 15 Arcana on Reflection. Limited though it may be, it's especially useful when it comes to protecting your buffs. This solidifies the Magus's action economy over the bard, because he can buff AND fight, as opposed to the bard (and other spellcasters) who have to do one then the other.

More importantly though, he can debuff opponents while fighting them, by casting Greater Targeted Dispel. If you try to cast it on him, BOOM. Reflection Arcana. You just hit yourself with a greater targeted dispel. Hope your GM ignores the part on you automatically succeeding on dispelling your own spells...

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