Homosexuality in Golarion


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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Kobold Cleaver wrote:
This said, doesn't Shardra's entry kinda imply that paying for a kid's engagement is pretty much a bride-focused thing? Since the family is initially annoyed about being saddled with handling another dowry?

Jessica explained that one in her longer post on this the previous page.

They are annoyed because they already arranged for her marriage in her assigned at birth gender, and the conditions of the arrangement would be profitable to them, while arranging marriage for her after transition will cost them specifically because of (lack) of currently available matches that would be profitable to them.

Project Manager

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
This said, doesn't Shardra's entry kinda imply that paying for a kid's engagement is pretty much a bride-focused thing? Since the family is initially annoyed about being saddled with handling another dowry?

Please read my post above about why that assumption isn't necessarily supported.

Project Manager

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Drejk wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
This said, doesn't Shardra's entry kinda imply that paying for a kid's engagement is pretty much a bride-focused thing? Since the family is initially annoyed about being saddled with handling another dowry?

Jessica explained that one in her longer post on this the previous page.

They are annoyed because they already arranged for her marriage in her assigned at birth gender, and the conditions of the arrangement would be profitable to them, while arranging marriage for her after transition will cost them specifically because of (lack) of currently available matches that would be profitable to them.

To be clear: Crystal's the only one who can say for sure, since she's the one fleshing out that corner of the world.

The above is just me pointing out that you could have a society in which Shardra's story plays out exactly as told, but the assumptions we might make about her society based on Earth customs are wrong.

Dark Archive

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Freehold DM wrote:
Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
This kind of thing might be included in a 'Romance of the Inner Sea' book -- which could include marriage customs among the various human and non-human nations. Forum denizens mention that possibility a lot, but I suspect Paizo is skeptical about how well it will sell to the general customer base.

I would pay good money for such a book.

Good. Money.

Ditto. Only it would be bad money.

Dirty. Evil. Sexy. Money.

Project Manager

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Set wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
This kind of thing might be included in a 'Romance of the Inner Sea' book -- which could include marriage customs among the various human and non-human nations. Forum denizens mention that possibility a lot, but I suspect Paizo is skeptical about how well it will sell to the general customer base.

I would pay good money for such a book.

Good. Money.

Ditto. Only it would be bad money.

Dirty. Evil. Sexy. Money.

Well, if it's dirty evil sexy money, let's get that sucker on the schedule.*

*Kidding.

Community Manager

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Jessica Price wrote:
Set wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
This kind of thing might be included in a 'Romance of the Inner Sea' book -- which could include marriage customs among the various human and non-human nations. Forum denizens mention that possibility a lot, but I suspect Paizo is skeptical about how well it will sell to the general customer base.

I would pay good money for such a book.

Good. Money.

Ditto. Only it would be bad money.

Dirty. Evil. Sexy. Money.

Well, if it's dirty evil sexy money, let's get that sucker on the schedule.*

*Kidding.

...

*puts away wallet*

Silver Crusade System Administrator

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Jessica Price wrote:


Well, if it's dirty evil sexy money, let's get that sucker on the schedule.*

*Kidding.

This is one of many reasons Jessica is awesome.


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Jessica Price wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
This said, doesn't Shardra's entry kinda imply that paying for a kid's engagement is pretty much a bride-focused thing? Since the family is initially annoyed about being saddled with handling another dowry?
Please read my post above about why that assumption isn't necessarily supported.

Well, if you would write shorter, less interesting posts with less useful information and entertaining insights, we wouldn't be having this problem right now.

I'll take my apology in cash, please.

Project Manager

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Drejk wrote:
Jessica Price wrote:
Who pays might just as easily be determined when the marriage is arranged, and based on which spouse will be relocating and which clan their children will belong to, rather than strictly by gender.
Sooo... If we are speaking about this - would it be that the the spouses acquire status of the clan the move to and become part of (more likely), or do they bring the other spouse's status to the clan they move to, thus increasing the receiving clan overall prestige? The second one could lead to interesting inter-clan politics allowing for balancing prestige gained through other means by "sharing" the higher status of successful clan with other allied clans by marring the successful clan's children into them.

So, and again, with the caveat that this is just the way I read it and Crystal may have intended it differently:

As far as how it works on Earth, there are a bunch of different practices determining where you live once you get married, how you're identified, etc. In a matrilocal culture, for example, a married couple lives with or near the wife's parents, or in her clan/tribe/family's territory. In many patriarchal cultures, a wife is considered part of her husband's tribe/family/etc. after she's married. (Although contemporary Western culture tends to frame it as a merging of families, or as both spouses becoming part of the other's family, there are still remnants of a more patriarchal mindset, such as wives taking their husbands' last names.)

That doesn't mean that you couldn't have a culture in which where you live, and how you identify is decided not on the basis of gender, but through negotiation between clans, however.

In dwarf society, assuming that status is mostly tied to power and wealth (which may or may not be the same thing), and that arranged marriages are the norm, when a marriage is arranged, one clan is essentially losing a member and one is gaining a member. If you marry into a family, your primary identification is now as a member of that family, which means that status you gain reflects on that family, wealth you bring in is expected to help support that family, your children take that family name, etc.

So, when as a parent or clan head, you set out to arrange a marriage for one of your clan members, a number of things are in play--are basically a form of currency--in setting up that marriage:

--the person themselves, their skills, their prestige, etc.
--your family's prestige/reputation
--money (in the form of a dowry, groom-price, etc.)
--alliances
--land and land-rights
--inheritance rights
--potential children

If another clan is wealthy and powerful, you may want to marry your child into that clan rather than trying to get his future spouse to join yours, so that he'll have their protection and the prestige of bearing that name. If he's a talented smith, and they need a smith, maybe neither side pays much to the other -- it's more or less an even trade of the prestige and wealth he'll have access to for the skills he brings.

If, on the other hand, he doesn't have a lot of selling points, but he's deeply in love with someone from that clan and you're indulgent parents, or you know your clan is in danger somehow and want to ensure that some of your children are safe from it, or something like that, you might pay an exorbitant dower so he can be with the love of his life or to protect him.

On the other hand, maybe your clan hasn't produced a lot of children, and you're worried about the next generation being too small. You might pay a pretty high bride-price to get his bride to join your clan and ensure that his children bear your clan name.

And, of course, like most things involving reputation and prestige, some of it probably goes both ways: if someone from a high-status clan marries into yours, that raises your family's prestige. If you're from a low-status family and marry into a high-status one, it may not damage their prestige, but you might end up being sort of kept out of the way/doing menial stuff unless you prove yourself to have talents they find useful.

So, someone like Shardra may not initially have been considered a very attractive prospect, but once her ore-finding abilities came to light, even if her family was lower-status, suitors from higher-status families would be interested and willing to pay to have her join their family so that wealth would support their clan and her reputation would add to their prestige.


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Liz Courts wrote:
Jessica Price wrote:
Set wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
This kind of thing might be included in a 'Romance of the Inner Sea' book -- which could include marriage customs among the various human and non-human nations. Forum denizens mention that possibility a lot, but I suspect Paizo is skeptical about how well it will sell to the general customer base.

I would pay good money for such a book.

Good. Money.

Ditto. Only it would be bad money.

Dirty. Evil. Sexy. Money.

Well, if it's dirty evil sexy money, let's get that sucker on the schedule.*

*Kidding.

...

*puts away wallet*

Hey, isn't that my wallet?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
This said, doesn't Shardra's entry kinda imply that paying for a kid's engagement is pretty much a bride-focused thing? Since the family is initially annoyed about being saddled with handling another dowry?

It could easily be a groom price as well. It all depends on the relative status difference between the families involved.

Liberty's Edge Assistant Developer

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Jessica Price wrote:

That doesn't mean that you couldn't have a culture in which where you live, and how you identify is decided not on the basis of gender, but through negotiation between clans, however.

In dwarf society, assuming that status is mostly tied to power and wealth (which may or may not be the same thing), and that arranged marriages are the norm, when a marriage is arranged, one clan is essentially losing a member and one is gaining a member. If you marry into a family, your primary identification is now...

This is actually a part of Shardra's story that ended up on the cutting room floor because it wasn't strictly necessary to the narrative (and ate up a lot of wordcount) and distracted a bit from the flow.

To expand: When her family assumed she was a boy, Shardra had been arranged to marry Itcel Dechl. The Geltls were surveyors and assayers--a very respected position in dwarven culture, but a fairly blue-collar one--while the Dechl were soldiers and commanders who are always hungry for stronger ties to the production side of arms and armor manufacture. The marriage was considered mutually beneficial, so neither clan needed to exchange property to sweeten the pot.

When Shardra found herself, her family still loved and supported her, but the marriage fell through (at least in part because Itcel had no interest in women and--another element I ended up cutting--she was not as supportive of Shardra's revealed gender as the Geltl family were). Because Shardra was relatively old when she came out (towards the end of first puberty), she essentially ended up older than all her sisters were when their marriages were arranged, and left her family with very little time to arrange a marriage. Add in the fact that dwarven marriages tend to emphasize having at least a child or two, and Shardra--at first--seemed like a less-than-ideal pairing for anyone the family wanted to pair with.

Of course, all that was before Shardra came into her magic or her... other assets. Once her intuition and skills made her so valuable to the community, she suddenly became a much more attractive marriage prospect as well. Her skills would bring better fortunes to whatever family she joined, and were also extremely valuable to the Geltl clan, so other families were willing to tempt her into marrying into their circles rather than have one of their scions join the Geltls. At one point, the Dechl clan even tried to reinstate their former marriage arrangement over Itcel protests, which fell through (mostly because Shardra's mother likes to rub people's faces in their mistakes).


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Jessica Price wrote:
A lot of your questions answer themselves if you stop assuming that one's genital configuration determines one's gender, the gender(s) to which one is attracted, etc.

I apologize. It was never my assumption that genitalia determined gender.

However, it does play a part in sex (male/female) and disjunction between one's gender and sex are often the root of issue in society's perception of transexuality. While modern medicine can alter an individual physically, it does have limitations on a base genetic level. The differences between a medical alteration and a magical one are the things that fascinate me.

Crystal Fraiser wrote:
*many interesting things on magical sex shift*

Ah yes, it is a house rule, of sorts. We use an expanded reincarnate table (which I cannot seem to find at this moment) which has a sex roll as well as several other table rolls to determine reincarnated race (noting that the sex roll may be invalid if the rolled race is alway a particular sex, such as in changelings).

Thank you into the insights. It's always interesting to see through other's eyes.

The Exchange

James Keegan wrote:

Well, if you check out the write-up of NPCs in Sandpoint from Rise of the Runelords...

** spoiler omitted **

Personally, I'm fine with it and all, but I just wonder whether it's gratuitous or not. Will the Queen's relationship to her bodyguard be all that explicitly important in the coming adventures?

So true. I read the Rise of the Runelords and found that an interesting item in Sandpoint.


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Jessica Price wrote:
Set wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
This kind of thing might be included in a 'Romance of the Inner Sea' book -- which could include marriage customs among the various human and non-human nations. Forum denizens mention that possibility a lot, but I suspect Paizo is skeptical about how well it will sell to the general customer base.

I would pay good money for such a book.

Good. Money.

Ditto. Only it would be bad money.

Dirty. Evil. Sexy. Money.

Well, if it's dirty evil sexy money, let's get that sucker on the schedule.*

gets out phone

Yes, Hello Super Mario Kart Tours? Yeah, I'd like to get a ticket for two to your.. ...

checks guidebook

"Choco Mountain Chocolate Spectacular Tour, Now With Even More Chocolate"...No, I am aware of how expensive the pixelization process is, money is no object...

Quote:


*Kidding.

Ah, you know what? I'm gonna have to check with my accountant on that after all...


Sceptenar wrote:

First I want to say that I honestly appreciate the inclusion of homosexual characters in Pathfinder, Queen Ileosa and Sabina for example, as most RPGs seem to ignore this group completely. However it seems to me that Paizo has fallen into the trap of only making female gay characters. What I would like to see are some gay male characters and transsexuals in Golarion, the women have had their fun, let the boys and anyone in between in on it as well!

Also, I would like to see some information on how these groups are generally treated in the various societies on Golarion (most of what I've seen up til now seems to be quite progressive, but I doubt that is true for the entire world).

I am sure in all of the posts someone has pointed out that there was a gay male couple in Wrath of the Righteous.

As far as treatment, as with skin color, it seems that Golarion doesn't treat homosexual, bisexual, or transgendered characters any differently than anyone else.


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Morzadian wrote:
Vutava wrote:

I personally don't actually know much about the preferances (sp?) of my characters.

Voren might be asexual, but I'm not really sure. I do know he's the only one of my characters that wouldn't really care if he was cursed by a girdle of opposite gender.
I think Vors is attracted to ladies, but I don't have much evidence to go on.
I feel I should also note that Toshiro's parents are both women.

That's basically how much my Pathfinder play is affected by the contents of this thread.

Playing RPGs (mostly D&D and now Pathfinder) for over 3 decades let me to the conclusion that player characters need an extensive character background so they can make judgments on pretty much everything including sexual preference and relationships.

Usually my characters have a 8 page character background, kind of like a mini-thesis.

Otherwise you are really left with alignment (that is generic in nature, which leads to tropes, instead of reinvention of existing tropes that make for more interesting characters ) to make judgment calls on who your character is and how they feel about something.

Edit: IMO the process of writing helps me figure things out (about my character) or leads characterisation and identity in exciting new directions.

My characters do have fairly extensive backstory, but there are still things I don't know about them. This can be because they themselves don't know or because it simply hasn't come up yet. Of course, I do know some things about my characters that they don't know, and I just assume they know some things I don't know.

I don't have MPD, I just have a lot of people in my head.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ashwynfaust wrote:
Sceptenar wrote:

First I want to say that I honestly appreciate the inclusion of homosexual characters in Pathfinder, Queen Ileosa and Sabina for example, as most RPGs seem to ignore this group completely. However it seems to me that Paizo has fallen into the trap of only making female gay characters. What I would like to see are some gay male characters and transsexuals in Golarion, the women have had their fun, let the boys and anyone in between in on it as well!

Also, I would like to see some information on how these groups are generally treated in the various societies on Golarion (most of what I've seen up til now seems to be quite progressive, but I doubt that is true for the entire world).

I am sure in all of the posts someone has pointed out that there was a gay male couple in Wrath of the Righteous.

As far as treatment, as with skin color, it seems that Golarion doesn't treat homosexual, bisexual, or transgendered characters any differently than anyone else.

The couple did not only feature a transgender, it was also cross species as it was a human/half orc couple.


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My characters...Kabongak d'Barrow, orc paladin, is a cisgendered asexual male. He doesn't really know this about himself, of course. Kabongak is bad at internal examinations.

Thornton Poer, halfling ghoul-blooded sorcerer, is a cisgendered male. He may be bisexual. I think he's aromantic and has a very low sex drive, but I don't think it out too much. He has a fairly dominating arc already without complicating things with another deadly sin, y'know?

Xiddik the kobold bard/ranger is a bard.

Liberty's Edge Assistant Developer

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LazarX wrote:
The couple did not only feature a transgender, it was also cross species as it was a human/half orc couple.

A transgender woman. When people just say "a transgender" we snicker behind your backs <_<

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Crystal Frasier wrote:
LazarX wrote:
The couple did not only feature a transgender, it was also cross species as it was a human/half orc couple.
A transgender woman. When people just say "a transgender" we snicker behind your backs <_<

I've always assumed that you've been snickering behind all of us pinkskins all along. :)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If someone offered you the half orc regression spell to make you a full "true orc" would you be tempted?

Liberty's Edge Assistant Developer

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LazarX wrote:
If someone offered you the half orc regression spell to make you a full "true orc" would you be tempted?

Never! Who I am isn't something damaged that needs to be fixed. I am unique and beautiful in my pinky-green skin and happy with who I am and the gifts I possess. All the pain in my life has come not from my status existing between two larger worlds but from individuals in those two larger demanding I choose one or the other.

Silver Crusade

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Crystal Frasier wrote:
LazarX wrote:
If someone offered you the half orc regression spell to make you a full "true orc" would you be tempted?
Never! Who I am isn't something damaged that needs to be fixed. I am unique and beautiful in my pinky-green skin and happy with who I am and the gifts I possess. All the pain in my life has come not from my status existing between two larger worlds but from individuals in those two larger demanding I choose one or the other.

Greater Bane helps with that last one.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Crystal Frasier wrote:
LazarX wrote:
If someone offered you the half orc regression spell to make you a full "true orc" would you be tempted?
Never! Who I am isn't something damaged that needs to be fixed. I am unique and beautiful in my pinky-green skin and happy with who I am and the gifts I possess. All the pain in my life has come not from my status existing between two larger worlds but from individuals in those two larger demanding I choose one or the other.

In the early days of Star Trek paperbacks there was a book of short stories called new voyages. In one of those stories, a mad scientist splits Spock into his Human and Vulcan selves. One of the best moments of that story is when Kirk suddenly realizes that Spock's friendship with him, is from his Vulcan half as much as it is from his Human one.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
LazarX wrote:
In the early days of Star Trek paperbacks there was a book of short stories called new voyages. In one of those stories, a mad scientist splits Spock into his Human and Vulcan selves. One of the best moments of that story is when Kirk suddenly realizes that Spock's friendship with him, is from his Vulcan half as much as it is from his Human one.

Friendship my tail, they're a romantic couple whose only on screen heterosexual escapades are mentions to past relationships or when they're manipulating someone (more often Kirk), or being manipulated by a greater power (more often Spock).

Anyway, I support more male homosexual couples and couples involving one or more trans and/or non-binary individuals in adventure paths. I wouldn't even object to polygamous relationships showing up in a positive light even though that's not my thing.


HenshinFanatic wrote:
LazarX wrote:
In the early days of Star Trek paperbacks there was a book of short stories called new voyages. In one of those stories, a mad scientist splits Spock into his Human and Vulcan selves. One of the best moments of that story is when Kirk suddenly realizes that Spock's friendship with him, is from his Vulcan half as much as it is from his Human one.

Friendship my tail, they're a romantic couple whose only on screen heterosexual escapades are mentions to past relationships or when they're manipulating someone (more often Kirk), or being manipulated by a greater power (more often Spock).

Anyway, I support more male homosexual couples and couples involving one or more trans and/or non-binary individuals in adventure paths. I wouldn't even object to polygamous relationships showing up in a positive light even though that's not my thing.

I would assume that at this point that is a delicate balancing act. There's a fine line between helpful progressiveness and immersion killing pandering.

Project Manager

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Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:
HenshinFanatic wrote:
LazarX wrote:
In the early days of Star Trek paperbacks there was a book of short stories called new voyages. In one of those stories, a mad scientist splits Spock into his Human and Vulcan selves. One of the best moments of that story is when Kirk suddenly realizes that Spock's friendship with him, is from his Vulcan half as much as it is from his Human one.

Friendship my tail, they're a romantic couple whose only on screen heterosexual escapades are mentions to past relationships or when they're manipulating someone (more often Kirk), or being manipulated by a greater power (more often Spock).

Anyway, I support more male homosexual couples and couples involving one or more trans and/or non-binary individuals in adventure paths. I wouldn't even object to polygamous relationships showing up in a positive light even though that's not my thing.

I would assume that at this point that is a delicate balancing act. There's a fine line between helpful progressiveness and immersion killing pandering.

Nope. Nothing "delicate" about it. Including gay or trans people isn't pandering any more than including straight people. They don't need special plot justifications for their presence any more than straight people do. It's not about "progressiveness": it's just about treating everyone equally.

They exist in Golarion, therefore they are present in stories about Golarion, and that's all there really is to it.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jessica Price wrote:
Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:
HenshinFanatic wrote:
LazarX wrote:
In the early days of Star Trek paperbacks there was a book of short stories called new voyages. In one of those stories, a mad scientist splits Spock into his Human and Vulcan selves. One of the best moments of that story is when Kirk suddenly realizes that Spock's friendship with him, is from his Vulcan half as much as it is from his Human one.

Friendship my tail, they're a romantic couple whose only on screen heterosexual escapades are mentions to past relationships or when they're manipulating someone (more often Kirk), or being manipulated by a greater power (more often Spock).

Anyway, I support more male homosexual couples and couples involving one or more trans and/or non-binary individuals in adventure paths. I wouldn't even object to polygamous relationships showing up in a positive light even though that's not my thing.

I would assume that at this point that is a delicate balancing act. There's a fine line between helpful progressiveness and immersion killing pandering.

Nope. Nothing "delicate" about it. Including gay or trans people isn't pandering any more than including straight people. They don't need special plot justifications for their presence any more than straight people do. It's not about "progressiveness": it's just about treating everyone equally.

They exist in Golarion, therefore they are present in stories about Golarion, and that's all there really is to it.

Unfortunately we do not yet live in the society where that can be the expected answer. The existence of this very thread is the proof of that.

Project Manager

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LazarX wrote:
Jessica Price wrote:
Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:
HenshinFanatic wrote:
LazarX wrote:
In the early days of Star Trek paperbacks there was a book of short stories called new voyages. In one of those stories, a mad scientist splits Spock into his Human and Vulcan selves. One of the best moments of that story is when Kirk suddenly realizes that Spock's friendship with him, is from his Vulcan half as much as it is from his Human one.

Friendship my tail, they're a romantic couple whose only on screen heterosexual escapades are mentions to past relationships or when they're manipulating someone (more often Kirk), or being manipulated by a greater power (more often Spock).

Anyway, I support more male homosexual couples and couples involving one or more trans and/or non-binary individuals in adventure paths. I wouldn't even object to polygamous relationships showing up in a positive light even though that's not my thing.

I would assume that at this point that is a delicate balancing act. There's a fine line between helpful progressiveness and immersion killing pandering.

Nope. Nothing "delicate" about it. Including gay or trans people isn't pandering any more than including straight people. They don't need special plot justifications for their presence any more than straight people do. It's not about "progressiveness": it's just about treating everyone equally.

They exist in Golarion, therefore they are present in stories about Golarion, and that's all there really is to it.

Unfortunately we do not yet live in the society where that can be the expected answer. The existence of this very thread is the proof of that.

It may not be the "expected" answer, but it is nevertheless the answer where Paizo products are concerned.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:
HenshinFanatic wrote:
LazarX wrote:
In the early days of Star Trek paperbacks there was a book of short stories called new voyages. In one of those stories, a mad scientist splits Spock into his Human and Vulcan selves. One of the best moments of that story is when Kirk suddenly realizes that Spock's friendship with him, is from his Vulcan half as much as it is from his Human one.

Friendship my tail, they're a romantic couple whose only on screen heterosexual escapades are mentions to past relationships or when they're manipulating someone (more often Kirk), or being manipulated by a greater power (more often Spock).

Anyway, I support more male homosexual couples and couples involving one or more trans and/or non-binary individuals in adventure paths. I wouldn't even object to polygamous relationships showing up in a positive light even though that's not my thing.

I would assume that at this point that is a delicate balancing act. There's a fine line between helpful progressiveness and immersion killing pandering.

That pretty much lies on the eyes of the beholder. As we have seen for some folks, the existence of even ONE such character falls under the "pandering" detail.

Quite frankly for me, it all falls on how such characters are used, not how many or how few they are.


LazarX wrote:
Jessica Price wrote:
Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:
HenshinFanatic wrote:
LazarX wrote:
In the early days of Star Trek paperbacks there was a book of short stories called new voyages. In one of those stories, a mad scientist splits Spock into his Human and Vulcan selves. One of the best moments of that story is when Kirk suddenly realizes that Spock's friendship with him, is from his Vulcan half as much as it is from his Human one.

Friendship my tail, they're a romantic couple whose only on screen heterosexual escapades are mentions to past relationships or when they're manipulating someone (more often Kirk), or being manipulated by a greater power (more often Spock).

Anyway, I support more male homosexual couples and couples involving one or more trans and/or non-binary individuals in adventure paths. I wouldn't even object to polygamous relationships showing up in a positive light even though that's not my thing.

I would assume that at this point that is a delicate balancing act. There's a fine line between helpful progressiveness and immersion killing pandering.

Nope. Nothing "delicate" about it. Including gay or trans people isn't pandering any more than including straight people. They don't need special plot justifications for their presence any more than straight people do. It's not about "progressiveness": it's just about treating everyone equally.

They exist in Golarion, therefore they are present in stories about Golarion, and that's all there really is to it.

Unfortunately we do not yet live in the society where that can be the expected answer. The existence of this very thread is the proof of that.

I'm saying that including a LGBT character is delicate work. I'm saying there is a certain level of presence of any given social group which one would expect, and finding a given level of diversity without it becoming cliche or pandering requires balance.

It's the "High School Text Book Level of Diversity" dilemma (The cover shows at least one black, white, latino, asian, at least one handicap person in a chair, all in a ratio of female/ male approximately 50/50).
Yes, there is such diversity in the world, but showing all of its diversity at once is simply unrealistic.

Note that towns have hundreds or thousands of NPCs.
Only NPCs which the PCs interact with highly will be stated.
Only NPCs which are important in some regard will have ANY sort of description.
The vast majority of NPCs are unstated.
If the NPCs that the PCs interact with are a particular subgroup without even cursory explanation (ie why are three of the four shop keepers in this town Taldan town Shoanti?), then it jars immersion.

Trunau works well and was a perfect example of executing a realistic balance of non-typical (non-strait, cisgendered) individuals.
Two of the ten featured Prominent Members are LGBT, the entire ten span a range of ethnicities and backgrounds somewhat reminiscent of a real world small town (A traditional rural town at that. Abadar, Iomede, Erastil all have presence).

I'm not sure it would hold up as well if any beyond those two of the ten were LGBT.
Simply put, you don't see those numbers in a small, traditionalist rural town.

I work in such a town as a clerk in a grocery store, meaning that I've seen and interacted with nearly the entirety of the town at some point in time.
I have a rough idea of the the diversity of the town; the approximate number of any given ethnicity, the approximate number of LBGT individuals, the number of individuals in wheelchairs, the number of individuals with birth defects.

Seeing a setting that is similar enough to my town, I expect some rough equivalent of diversity, with some degree of variation one way or another.
Since two of ten Prominent Members of Trunau are lesbians, I get the feeling that Trunau has a slightly larger population of same sex couples. Considering the general greater acceptance of homosexuality in Golarion, I would expect this.
However, if say four of the ten Prominent Characters in Trunau were homosexual, then that either implies that there is a far greater homosexual population in said small town or that homosexuality is that much more supported in what is otherwise a small traditionalist rural town very similar to my own.
And that would break my immersion.

Kaer Maga has a much greater population.
It also has an established society of transgendered individuals (the Blushing Rose).
I would be far less jarred to find a prominent transgendered individual in Kaer maga than in Trunau.
Not saying that Trunau lacks any transgender individuals, simply saying that given sheer percentage population and statistical odds it is less likely to have a Significant Member as one.

LazarX wrote:
Quite frankly for me, it all falls on how such characters are used, not how many or how few they are.

For me, it's numbers in addition to use. Simply put, I don't see that many LGBT individuals in daily life in a small town.

Seeing more than a handful in a small town in game just seems to defy immersion (unless there's an actual backstory related point, such as why there are as many Tiens as there are in Sandpoint in our Jade Regent game).

I assume that EVERY town has some population of homosexual individuals, some number of crippled individuals, some with birth defects, some degree of elderly, some number of youth, some degree of ethnic diversity.
However, most of these people are just people, living their lives as people tend to do.
The Prominent Characters are a portion of that diversity, but are in some degree representative of it as well.


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Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:
Yes, there is such diversity in the world, but showing all of its diversity at once is simply unrealistic.

I can't say I'm really concerned. After all, there are any number of other factors. For example, even in a more accepting world than our own, maybe LGBT folks gravitate to a particular area to find what they're looking for. OK, if statistics suggest that NPC X may be the only gay person in the hamlet they grew up in, and they're interested in finding someone they could love and build a life with, maybe they'd head for the big city, such as it may be. Sandpoint is the biggest town between Magnimar and Riddleport (if I recall correctly), and I can imagine that anyone trying to eke out a living in the Hold of Belkzen might want to head to Trunau if they can, perhaps especially if they're different in some way. (That's not to say that orcs are necessarily prejudiced against any particular group, but if those orcs are evil I can imagine they would probe a member of any minority for signs of weakness in relation to that status just as part of making them miserable in general.)

In real life, for another example, there's a perception where I live that there's a few more trans* people around than might otherwise be expected. Partly that's because while where I live isn't great, it's still better than a lot of the rest of rural Ontario, but it's also just randomness. Can I not enter a room with another couple of trans* people in it unless we make sure we're in a town that, on average, is big enough for three trans* people?

On the practical level, there's the question of what Paizo publishes and who buys how much of it. Since Paizo wants to be inclusive, stuff has to go somewhere, and it will probably be more or less prominent because who's going to buy "1st-level Commoners with Different Backgrounds but No Mechanical Differences of Golarion" or "Varisia: Insignificant Backwaters?" Until someone's personal campaign reaches a given area, canonical NPCs might not even exist for them, and it's easier to edit out than in. Or should they assume a mathematically ideal average distribution, and let us know, for those who are interested in inclusivity, that the next statistically likely LGBT NPC, or whoever, will be appearing in product Y?

I'll leave it at that, since there's been discussion about related issues before, such as here, and I don't want to rehash the same ground too much. (The link is to one of my posts, but a bunch of other people in the same thread have very interesting ways of approaching things too, so I don't mean to toot my own horn.) I'm sorry if this has been snappish; it's probably late for me to try to write anything intelligent about something I feel strongly about.

EDIT: I realized in making sure the link worked that KSF had used the example I used above of entering a room in the linked thread. I had completely forgotten. What can I say? Great minds think alike? :)

Project Manager

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Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:
Yes, there is such diversity in the world, but showing all of its diversity at once is simply unrealistic.

No, it's not.

It's no more "unrealistic" than showing it all at once. It's not realistic at all, actually, to say, "We can't have a dark-skinned family in this town! We already have a lesbian!"

Liberty's Edge Assistant Developer

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"Unrealistic" doesn't really matter. We don't include minorities as characters in our game world to accurately reflect in-world or real-world demographics. We include characters of all sorts of racial and ethnic and sexual and social diversity because we want those people in the real world to understand they have a place in our world, and that there is room for them to be the hero, not just the villain or the sidekick.

That math book you held up as your example doesn't feature a white kid, a latino kid, a black kid, and an asian kid because the authors think the world is roughly divided into 25% of each. That cover exists so black kids, latino kids, and asian kids don't have to quietly be told they have no place in the world. Again.

It's not about pandering. It's about telling others they're welcome.


The good news is Americans over estimate percentages of the population that fit verious demographics. So if said groups are "over exposed" in a gaming product the population probably won't even notice.


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Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Jessica Price wrote:
Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:
HenshinFanatic wrote:
LazarX wrote:
In the early days of Star Trek paperbacks there was a book of short stories called new voyages. In one of those stories, a mad scientist splits Spock into his Human and Vulcan selves. One of the best moments of that story is when Kirk suddenly realizes that Spock's friendship with him, is from his Vulcan half as much as it is from his Human one.

Friendship my tail, they're a romantic couple whose only on screen heterosexual escapades are mentions to past relationships or when they're manipulating someone (more often Kirk), or being manipulated by a greater power (more often Spock).

Anyway, I support more male homosexual couples and couples involving one or more trans and/or non-binary individuals in adventure paths. I wouldn't even object to polygamous relationships showing up in a positive light even though that's not my thing.

I would assume that at this point that is a delicate balancing act. There's a fine line between helpful progressiveness and immersion killing pandering.

Nope. Nothing "delicate" about it. Including gay or trans people isn't pandering any more than including straight people. They don't need special plot justifications for their presence any more than straight people do. It's not about "progressiveness": it's just about treating everyone equally.

They exist in Golarion, therefore they are present in stories about Golarion, and that's all there really is to it.

Unfortunately we do not yet live in the society where that can be the expected answer. The existence of this very thread is the proof of that.

I'm saying that including a LGBT character is delicate work. I'm saying there is a certain level of presence of any given social group which one would expect, and finding a given level of diversity without it becoming cliche or pandering requires balance.

It's the "High School Text Book Level of Diversity"...

I disagree. I think when it comes to sexually, people have always been orientations other than heterosexual. Most people are hearing about it more often than ever just now due to increased media and medical science options. It's not delicate, it's real life.


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Jessica Price wrote:
Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:
Yes, there is such diversity in the world, but showing all of its diversity at once is simply unrealistic.

No, it's not.

It's no more "unrealistic" than showing it all at once. It's not realistic at all, actually, to say, "We can't have a dark-skinned family in this town! We already have a lesbian!"

this made me weep with laughter.


Statistically unlikely stuff in RPGs is not going to bother me. Once played a GURPs game where apparently everyone in the four person party was ambidexterous. Needless to say four people *randomly* being perfectly ambidexterous is foolishly unlikely. I mean really we are okay with someone turning out to just so happen to be a princess for plot reasons.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:
For me, it's numbers in addition to use. Simply put, I don't see that many LGBT individuals out of the closet in daily life in a small town.

Corrected that for you. Small towns tend to add to the pressure of LGBT individuals to hide their nature, as well as various "bearding" practises to keep up the pretense. Simply because everyone pays so much more attention to everyone else.


LazarX wrote:
Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:
For me, it's numbers in addition to use. Simply put, I don't see that many LGBT individuals out of the closet in daily life in a small town.
Corrected that for you. Small towns tend to add to the pressure of LGBT individuals to hide their nature, as well as various "bearding" practises to keep up the pretense. Simply because everyone pays so much more attention to everyone else.

Actually already accounted for that.

Even if 3/4ths are not open about it, the numbers are low.
And a gay co-worker definitely helped get perspective on those numbers.

Silver Crusade

However with little trasnphobia, and homophobia in most places, esp among the common folk there would be less of a closet and therefore more people out.

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