Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Hey I know pre orders for this are supposed to ship out this week but out of curiosity. Do the eagle knights have anything to do with eagle riding? (sorry had to ask)
As a vague bit of spoilage:
They do not universally have anything to do with eagle riding, but they do have SOME aspects that relate to it. As in, you'll find a few things in the book that might fill the bill.
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As a Chelaxian you should suggest that it is a foolish path -- our Hellknights are far superior in both flavour and game mechanics! ;)Is there any chance we could see the prerequisites for the Steel Falcon prestige class prior to the book's release? We're starting a new game and one of the character's background would seem like a natural for this class.
Thanks in advance, but I fully understand if this can not be done.
This is completely true and EVERYONE knows it, would be nice if everyone would admit it though.
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This is completely true and EVERYONE knows it, would be nice if everyone would admit it though.As a Chelaxian you should suggest that it is a foolish path -- our Hellknights are far superior in both flavour and game mechanics! ;)Is there any chance we could see the prerequisites for the Steel Falcon prestige class prior to the book's release? We're starting a new game and one of the character's background would seem like a natural for this class.
Thanks in advance, but I fully understand if this can not be done.
Brimstone is a horrible flavor!
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Brimstone is a horrible flavor!This is completely true and EVERYONE knows it, would be nice if everyone would admit it though.As a Chelaxian you should suggest that it is a foolish path -- our Hellknights are far superior in both flavour and game mechanics! ;)Is there any chance we could see the prerequisites for the Steel Falcon prestige class prior to the book's release? We're starting a new game and one of the character's background would seem like a natural for this class.
Thanks in advance, but I fully understand if this can not be done.
You may have smelled it, but have you tasted it? ;P
Chief Technical Officer
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Any idea when the preorder PDF will be available? (the wait hurts)
All of our subscription products for the month are in stock as of today, and we're starting to fulfill subs; it'll take a few days to hit everybody.
The retail release date (and thus that date that non-subscribers can buy the PDF) is February 10.
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The only thing we Taldorans do to things that smell of brimstone is kill them.Bloodthirsty, are we? And single-mindedly devoted to speciesist, judgemental values -- which is no less I would expect from dim-witted Andoran fools! ;P
And just like a Chel, you can't tell others apart. I'm Taldorian!
:)
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Well just had a read of the book and I have to say I am somewhat disappointed with it. Don't get me wrong I think the fluff in it is excellent It is a lot of the mechanical stuff I find a dislike for I shall list them all below
1' Once again The traits are spread throughout the book making them a real pain to keep track of I would much prefer them to all be in one place
2'The achievement feats I disliked them the first time they appeared and the ones in this one are even worse (I mean one of them actually encourages you to jump off a cliff)
3' the persona section seems to have once again changed Instead of the one's we had In Cheliax we seem to have yet another different one with only one actualy stated character and the biography for two others
Overall very disappointed with this one
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The only thing we Taldorans do to things that smell of brimstone is kill them.Bloodthirsty, are we? And single-mindedly devoted to speciesist, judgemental values -- which is no less I would expect from dim-witted Andoran fools! ;PAnd just like a Chel, you can't tell others apart. I'm Taldorian!
:)
Well, Taldorian dandies who spend most of their spare time either in idle chatter or perfuming their wigs are in my mind no better than dim-witted Andoran lumberjacks! And why should I even bother with denizens of lesser nations, as our empire reigns supreme on all of Golarion? ;P
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Any idea when the preorder PDF will be available? (the wait hurts)All of our subscription products for the month are in stock as of today, and we're starting to fulfill subs; it'll take a few days to hit everybody.
The retail release date (and thus that date that non-subscribers can buy the PDF) is February 10.
Still waiting for my subscription order to ship... waiting.
All good things come to those who wait - true but still not easy to do I think the guys in customs just wanted to have a 1st look at Paizo products! :)
Well I relly don't mind the idea of achievement feats, however the ones presented here are pretty situational. And the one that isn't is very very seetting specific.
The falling damage one strikes me as pretty random. When I import that one, it'll have some sort of additional tie to one or more relevant deities, rather than just "hey, you fell three times ... now your healing is weird."
Well just had a read of the book and I have to say I am somewhat disappointed with it. Don't get me wrong I think the fluff in it is excellent It is a lot of the mechanical stuff I find a dislike for I shall list them all below
1' Once again The traits are spread throughout the book making them a real pain to keep track of I would much prefer them to all be in one place
2'The achievement feats I disliked them the first time they appeared and the ones in this one are even worse (I mean one of them actually encourages you to jump off a cliff)
3' the persona section seems to have once again changed Instead of the one's we had In Cheliax we seem to have yet another different one with only one actualy stated character and the biography for two others
Overall very disappointed with this one
Hey Kevin, sorry this one didn't work for you. A lot of the concerns you express come from areas I worked on so I thought I'd go into the reasoning behind them.
Any feedback from the readers is important. It tells designers and developers what works and what doesn't. I know from first hand experience that comments on this message board have influenced the notes a developer gives out when assigning things to freelancers (like me for instance :) ).
The only caveat I'll give is that there's usually about a six month or more lead in for most of the product lines. That means it might take awhile for even really good ideas to get implemented. But comments from the readers really do shape the way books get written.
On to your comments.
The traits: Most of the traits were tied pretty closely to some piece of flavor. For instance, the cities I did all have at least a few traits designed to emphasize something about that particular community. Most of the other traits in the book (after my skim of the PDF I just got this morning) look similar.
Put it this way, if you decide to do a trait called "Denizen of the Crystal Palace" it makes a certain amount of sense to put that trait next to write up on the Crystal Palace. Of course, you make a very good point about grouping the traits together so they are easy to find. It's a bit of balancing act. If so many of then didn't support specific pieces of text I bet they would all have been grouped in one place since that makes it a lot easier to create characters and NPCs with those traits. I suspect different books will swing back and forth on this issue.
Achievement feats: What can I say, I like achievement feats :) Designers love new sorts of crunch since it opens up fresh ways to play with the rules. Sometimes they catch on and sometimes they don't. I'm going to keep an eye on any discussion about achievement feats just to see how readers regard them.
(you don't have to jump off a cliff to get that feat but it's certainly the easiest way to do it :) )
Persona: I didn't do the personsas for this books so I can't speak too much towards what the writer was thinking. But I do know that section has evolved quite a bit. For instance, I did up the queen of Kyonin many moons ago for the elf book. Since then the section has gone from presenting "notables" like her to cohorts.
This change has a a lot going for it. A few less powerful NPCs are likely more useful in play than a ruler or someone of similar stature. You can use them as actual cohorts. To bolster a hole in a party's line up. A player can grab one as a quick character. And their histories give you another perspective on the theme of the book.
That was the thinking behind the Cheliax format, but this one was in the works before the Cheliax book came out (remember the caveat about the six plus month lead in?) so likely something got garbled along the way.
...Of course, you make a very good point about grouping the traits together so they are easy to find. It's a bit of balancing act. If so many of then didn't support specific pieces of text I bet they would all have been grouped in one place since that makes it a lot easier to create characters and NPCs with those traits....
While I see that the feats need to be together with the accompanying text, I think it might be worth some musing if placing them all together on one page - even if that would mean printing them twice in the same book - might improve the usability of the whole book. It might be worth it to create a one-page appendix that gathers all the crunch in one place. (except, of course, prestige class descriptions.)
Stefan
1' Once again The traits are spread throughout the book making them a real pain to keep track of I would much prefer them to all be in one place
Noted!
3' the persona section seems to have once again changed Instead of the one's we had In Cheliax we seem to have yet another different one with only one actualy stated character and the biography for two others
That's because the Andoran book actually sticks to the two-pages-for-each-backmatter-article format. Cheliax does not (4 pages), nor does Dwarves (3 pages).
While I see that the feats need to be together with the accompanying text, I think it might be worth some musing if placing them all together on one page - even if that would mean printing them twice in the same book - might improve the usability of the whole book. It might be worth it to create a one-page appendix that gathers all the crunch in one place. (except, of course, prestige class descriptions.
But every page you devote to duplicating information is one less page of NEW content you get in the book....
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3' the persona section seems to have once again changed Instead of the one's we had In Cheliax we seem to have yet another different one with only one actualy stated character and the biography for two othersThat's because the Andoran book actually sticks to the two-pages-for-each-backmatter-article format. Cheliax does not (4 pages), nor does Dwarves (3 pages).
So what is the standard system for Persona's now then if I may ask? I know I was uncertain (to put it mildly) When I first heard about the Cheliax books changes to the Persona section but after actually seeing it I think that was the best way of doing them.
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...Of course, you make a very good point about grouping the traits together so they are easy to find. It's a bit of balancing act. If so many of then didn't support specific pieces of text I bet they would all have been grouped in one place since that makes it a lot easier to create characters and NPCs with those traits....While I see that the feats need to be together with the accompanying text, I think it might be worth some musing if placing them all together on one page - even if that would mean printing them twice in the same book - might improve the usability of the whole book. It might be worth it to create a one-page appendix that gathers all the crunch in one place. (except, of course, prestige class descriptions.)
Stefan
Perhaps a trait page with other traits for the book, plus the names and page numbers for the traits already printed? That way you are only using 2 lines per already printed trait, and not duplicating all the text.
So what is the standard system for Persona's now then if I may ask? I know I was uncertain (to put it mildly) When I first heard about the Cheliax books changes to the Persona section but after actually seeing it I think that was the best way of doing them.
The standard setup for all of the backmatter articles (Combat, Faith, Magic, Persona, and Social) is a two-page spread. I'm not sure why I pushed it to 4 for Cheliax, perhaps because we were working on Council of Thieves (set in Cheliax) at the time and I thought players could use (1) more pick-up PCs, (2) more non-evil NPCs suitable for cohorts or hirelings, and GMs could use (3) more pick-up NPCs to use as secondary or supplemental characters for the AP.
For the next companions lined up, the Persona section is either (1) a two-page spread with one character and a series of "what {class X} are like from this country," or (2) a two-page spread with two characters. Depending on the feel of the book, we'll probably choose between those two options, unless there is a strong push from the fans to go one way or the other (or go a different way entirely).
Perhaps a trait page with other traits for the book, plus the names and page numbers for the traits already printed? That way you are only using 2 lines per already printed trait, and not duplicating all the text.
I'll try to get a trait index in later Companion books.
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So what is the standard system for Persona's now then if I may ask? I know I was uncertain (to put it mildly) When I first heard about the Cheliax books changes to the Persona section but after actually seeing it I think that was the best way of doing them.The standard setup for all of the backmatter articles (Combat, Faith, Magic, Persona, and Social) is a two-page spread. I'm not sure why I pushed it to 4 for Cheliax, perhaps because we were working on Council of Thieves (set in Cheliax) at the time and I thought players could use (1) more pick-up PCs, (2) more non-evil NPCs suitable for cohorts or hirelings, and GMs could use (3) more pick-up NPCs to use as secondary or supplemental characters for the AP.
Well like I said I actually quite like the way the Cheliax one was done (I seem to recall you saying it was two have one of each of the major class groups ie one arcane one divine ect)
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One compromise I've seen in various 3rd party books (Malhavoc Press and Penumbra use it, IIRC), is to have a page with a 'rules content index' at the back, listing all of the new feats, spells, PrCs, monsters, etc. in the book by name and page number, with, at most, a one line description (similar to the very brief blurbs at the beginning of the spells chaper or the beginning of the feats section).
It would take up less room than printing everything twice, and allow feats, traits, etc. to appear in whatever section seems most 'natural' for them.
While I see that the feats need to be together with the accompanying text, I think it might be worth some musing if placing them all together on one page - even if that would mean printing them twice in the same book - might improve the usability of the whole book. It might be worth it to create a one-page appendix that gathers all the crunch in one place. (except, of course, prestige class descriptions.But every page you devote to duplicating information is one less page of NEW content you get in the book....
As others have said, perhaps an index might be a good idea. I can easily see that more new content is of course better that repeating stuff. There are probably a dozen feats, traits etc. in these books on the average (I haven´t counted them, just guessing). So, an index would need about half a column if you include short informations as well, needing two lines per entry. If you just give the name and a page number, even less.
It is nice to have the cover art reproduced on the inside back cover, but maybe a rules page there might be a better use of that space. It would be very easy to find as well. Just an idea.
Stefan
Thank you for responding to my concerns I very much appreciate you taking time to address them.
Hey Kevin, sorry this one didn't work for you. A lot of the concerns you express come from areas I worked on so I thought I'd go into the reasoning behind them.
Thank you for spending time and money on something I wrote :)
(at least in part, lots of other folks contributed to this book)
I really like the PrC thuou
Glad you like it; hope it sees some play in your group.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Persona: I didn't do the personsas for this books so I can't speak too much towards what the writer was thinking. But I do know that section has evolved quite a bit. For instance, I did up the queen of Kyonin many moons ago for the elf book. Since then the section has gone from presenting "notables" like her to cohorts.
This change has a a lot going for it. A few less powerful NPCs are likely more useful in play than a ruler or someone of similar stature. You can use them as actual cohorts. To bolster a hole in a party's line up. A player can grab one as a quick character. And their histories give you another perspective on the theme of the book.
That'd be me on Persona, and like Hal I've seen a transition between when I worked on the Osirion book (and the Persona was the Ruby Prince himself) and this one, where the idea was more like "make several fluff profiles and stat up one low/mid-level NPC that might make a good ally or maybe a cohort." Simply put, a 6th level NPC's stats will usually be a lot more game-relevant than a 15th-level ruler of a nation - I mean, how often are you actually going to FIGHT that guy (or even fight WITH him against somebody else)?
It's simultaneously a blessing and a curse that the Persona sections have seen a lot of variation in how they're presented, in that you get to see many different models of how to do it, but sorry that this one didn't fit the kind of section that you have found the most useful and interesting, but hopefully you found some good nuggets elsewhere in the book to balance out your disappointment with this section.
This is THE most beautiful cover I've seen in the past few years. Props go out to the artist - I hope Paizo will continue to commision him :).
(edit) Also, re: Achievement feats. They don't do much for me as they work now, because they evoke that certain videogamey and/or metagamey feel. Hey, GM, I only need four more slavers dead to get my bonus - let's go and find some! That's not what I like in my games, YMMV.
How I COULD see them work: Don't make them abstract feats in setting sourcebooks. Make them specific rewards in adventures. For example, to take the Slaves/Slavers achievement, you could have a quest that leads the PCs to free some slaves. If (and only if, which they don't know beforehand) they manage to free all of the slaves without losing one to collateral damage, the PCs will all gain an Achievement. Of course, that means a reduction in power - approximately the power of a trait would to the trick, I think.
Just my 2 cents.
No PDF yet...still waiting for subscription to be sent out...
Darn you pending order status!
{ Hey, GM, I only need four more slavers dead to get my bonus - let's go and find some! That's not what I like in my games, YMMV.}
Yeah, wouldn't want the PCs to be proactive about looking for adventure rather than waiting for the GM to throw them plot hooks. ;)
This is THE most beautiful cover I've seen in the past few years. Props go out to the artist - I hope Paizo will continue to commision him :).
I really love this cover as well. There have been some good artists like this one, and Eva W., who I would enjoy seeing getting an AP cover run.
Yeah, wouldn't want the PCs to be proactive about looking for adventure rather than waiting for the GM to throw them plot hooks. ;)
Well, Sean, I'll give you that the two can be hard to distinguish. They might even be the same thing, just viewed from different perspectives. But: nothing's keeping players from being proactive without achievement feats working as they do now.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that any game in which these feats are used is wrongbadfun. But they hold a certain potential for abuse, as they are introducing a calculable element into the storyline. All I was advocating was rethinking the decision to put Achievements on the players' side of the board. Compare the two situations:
S1: The players know about Achievements from the PFC. They actively work to complete them.
S2: The players know that Achievements are out there, that they are connected to the current storyline, but that they're GM's eyes only until completed.
Wouldn't S2 serve equally well as an incentive for the players to be proactive in their actions, while at the same time avoiding possible metagaming?
Sorry that got rather long-winded now ;). I'm hoping I made at least some kind of sense - not being a native speaker, communicating fine distinctions like these can sometimes be difficult.
I really love this cover as well. There have been some good artists like this one, and Eva W., who I would enjoy seeing getting an AP cover run.
You and me both. Eva's art rocks. :)
Wouldn't S2 serve equally well as an incentive for the players to be proactive in their actions, while at the same time avoiding possible metagaming?
I really don't mind metagaming if it encourages the PCs to go out and DO things. It's easier for the GM if the PCs are actively interested in pursuing goals. You may feel differently, of course--and who am I to tell you how to run your campaign? :) I can totally see achievement feats being a secret thing you spring on the players, and the little power-up from it is a nice reward.
I don't like metagaming when it's used to used to make a character too powerful, or to make an encounter easier than it should be because the players know tactics the PCs wouldn't.
Looks like i'll get this next week. i'm looking forward to it, but based on the discussions so far I just wanted to put in my 2 cps. So far I haven't cared for the achievement feats, or recent persona sections in past companions. I agree that I'd rather not see rulers stated up or even full stats for potential hirelings ( i can do that myself) what i have liked is a dramatis persona list with class/level, maybe a paragraph of description for some of the VIPs of the region.
What has been useful to me and was really done well in Qadira (most recent Companion i have) is the prestige classes, geography and city maps, traits, society and religious info...pretty much everything else : )
again, i haven't got it yet, but i'm looking forward to this companion.
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Hello, I like much appreciate the bi-color of this book : blue and yellow. Very nice and beautiful illustrations. This book give me the impression to improve my english. Congratulations for their authors.
However, i would like to know when will i find the prestige class for Gray Corsair, Golden legion and the faction of spy of Andoran (didn't remember the name).
At level 5 of the Steel Falcon the spell one per day, "Freedom of movement" would be better.
Have a good continuation !
I was wondering the same thing Sebastien! The Golden Legion and the Twilight Talons should have had a Prestige Class in the book for sure.
I love the feather tokens found in this book!
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I love the feather tokens found in this book!
Glad you enjoyed. There was another one that got cut for space, the returning raven, which worked like something like a two-way whispering wind/animal messenger spell. C'est la vie, but glad you enjoyed the ones that made the cut.
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I love the feather tokens found in this book!Glad you enjoyed. There was another one that got cut for space, the returning raven, which worked like something like a two-way whispering wind/animal messenger spell. C'est la vie, but glad you enjoyed the ones that made the cut.
Any chance we could get the cut ones as a web enhancement or some such? I really enjoyed them, as well.
Jason, feel free to post it. :)
I have noticed an error with the map at the beginning of this book. The Dragonfly River just below the town of Bellis is missing. This river is depicted in the Inner Sea World guide and on the Golarion Poster Map. Could a correction be made to the PDF in the future?