Tell Them I Ain't Coming Back!

Curse of the Crimson Throne is on the way out (and AP#8 is sold out already, by the look) - one of Paizo's best APs, in my opinion. Same with Guide to Korvosa (one of the best Campaign Sourcebooks). If anyone doesnt have that yet, I'd strongly recommend it.

12thman still in effect?

For another few hours, I believe.

Whoa. 78 is almost sold out? Did you print a lower run thinking it wouldn't be as popular or is it in fact extra popular because of the untapped high-level adventure market?

Glad I ordered the WHOLE WotR AP wednesday. Talk about popular, it was just released this month!

--Vrock, Stock, & Barrel

Wow, already under 250 copies of City of Locusts? I'm honestly kind of impressed. Hope this bodes well for future mythic APs and modules!

Oh, and the "non-mint" Great Beyond books are currently priced $5 over the regular copies; not sure if that is in error or not.

You'll never take the skies from me.

Pathfinder Chronicles: Classic Monsters Revisited has been on that list since 2010.

This must be why they usually don't reprint…

I've got to assume they print less of the later volumes of an AP, on the assumption people will start and not see it all the way though more often than skip the beginning and go straight to the end. Still, if they were not getting the expected drop off, it's a good sign for the AP regardless.

Some of these things just recently came out! (Animal Archive, for one). Already discontinuing?!

Some of these things just recently came out! (Animal Archive, for one). Already discontinuing?!

That sort of thing doesn't usually see a reprint, which means it must have sold out faster than usual.

Pathfinder Chronicles: Classic Monsters Revisited has been on that list since 2010.

This must be why they usually don't reprint…

As you can tell, the last few hundred of a book can take quite a bit of time to sell all the way out. However, in this case, our book distributor had taken a huge amount of books when it first came out, and we were able to wrangle a couple hundred more copies back from them multiple times, so we effectively kept replenishing the last couple hundred copies of this book. For the most part, that doesn't happen with these other books. We don't let our book distributor take such huge quantities of any single book anymore.

-Lisa

I am guessing the pdf of these books will still be available?

Good thing I completed my AP collection a couple months ago!

I've got to assume they print less of the later volumes of an AP, on the assumption people will start and not see it all the way though…

That was precisely what I was wondering about: are there indeed smaller print runs for later instalments in the APs? (or maybe that's a trade secret the powers that be can't reveal)

xobmaps wrote:

I've got to assume they print less of the later volumes of an AP, on the assumption people will start and not see it all the way though…

That was precisely what I was wondering about: are there indeed smaller print runs for later instalments in the APs? (or maybe that's a trade secret the powers that be can't reveal)

They don't give actual numbers, but I remember vic confirming this in a general sort of way at some point.

Well, time to start at the bottom and work my way up again. *sigh*

I"m worried about say things like the maps and the minis. And that alt gm screen I want. Some of this im a bit surprised will not be available. The shirts and pint glasses not so much but others like soem of the mods yeah... maybe only print fifty a year? But discontinue? What about new Gms and new players wanting them?

There's always new modules coming out and the out of print ones are all available in PDF.

The trouble with a reprint is that costs are related to print run volumes - they cant do a significantly smaller print run and maintain their margins and if they do a reprint the same size as when it was first released, they'll move much slower which is more cost and potentially a significant loss.

As a new DM. It took me almost 2 years to complete the entire core rulebooks collection. And was slowly working my way to finishing everything else including all the adventure path series. And now to find out that your company will be discontinuing 5 of those paths is abit disheartening. Some of us do not have the resources or funds to drop down on a subscription and if they started late like I did those people are going to miss out on some already good print items. The last time I saw this happen in a company it was because that company decided to start printing another edition. This is not wizards of the coast all over again is it. Because if it is you should consider firing the guy who thought that this was a good idea.

They've had the same policy since before 4th edition came out, let alone before pathfinder was released. This isn't anything to do with editions, it's to do with economics.

It's a pain trawling through secondhand sites or printing PDFs, but there isn't really an economic option (yet). Hopefully print on demand will soon provide a solution to this.

Of course, it should be okay (someone correct me here if I'm wrong) to buy the PDFs of an out of print adventure path, take them to a print shop, and get a (single!) nicely bound 300 page+ collected volume made up.

As Steve and others have said, it's not because Paizo want these things to go out of print, it's just not economically viable for them to do another large volume print run (if they don't print something in the region of thousands of copies, it's going to end up far more expensive than the normal listed price) of something when they know most of the prospective buyers already have it, or will end up buying a reprint instead of the very latest AP (in other words, their products would end up competing with their own products, which is one of the reasons TSR ended up heading toilet-wards and not a direction Paizo want to go ;))

It sucks for customers that arrived to the party late (I'm already resigned to the fact I'll never get a full set of printed Kingmaker books), but at least the PDFs are still available. Now, if *they* got pulled, then there'd be a valid argument that Paizo might be gearing up for a new edition and attempting to force players into it, but seeing as that kind of practice is what drove many of us to Paizo (and they know it), it's doubtful they'd pull that kind of stunt knowing the damage it can do and that someone, somewhere would just start up "the new Paizo" to grab the affected customers.

Plus, I need to point out that Paizo do a very good job (better than most RPG companies I've had experience with) at keeping their entire line of hardback rulebooks in print. Sometimes there's a couple of months window while they make their way through distribution (I experienced that when trying to get the original Bestiary), but they do get there.

With the amount of different products Paizo has, it's all but impossible to keep them all in physical stock indefinitely. I think it's super nice that Paizo is keeping PDFs available of everything, so that if you really want to have a physical product, you can always get one printed out yourself. Sure, it will be expensive, but they'd probably be pretty much as expensive at Paizo if they had to factor in the costs of keeping everything in print.

I probably won't be able to afford Kingmaker because of the secondary market prices. Okay, fine. Paizo comes out with two new APs every year. I don't need to own every single previous one.

I'm still saying, as a newer player and a even newer gm, seeing this, would drive me away right from the start. I say just have runs of it. maybe yearly, or until stock runs out, then say six months later reprint some. Nothing major, but enough that new players can keep getting everything completed. I understand the need to make money, but I think we are missing the point this will cost us a good many new players, because they will think, oh, well they dont care if I dont have everything. And not everyone is fine with pdfs.

Man I wish GM would remake the 1967 Corvette so I could get one.

I'm still saying, as a newer player and a even newer gm, seeing this, would drive me away right from the start. I say just have runs of it. maybe yearly, or until stock runs out, then say six months later reprint some. Nothing major, but enough that new players can keep getting everything completed. I understand the need to make money, but I think we are missing the point this will cost us a good many new players, because they will think, oh, well they dont care if I dont have everything. And not everyone is fine with pdfs.

I'm asking this honestly, no snark intended: what percentage of new players do you think will not play the game because some of the products are not available from the publishing site? I'm also curious as to why that fact would produce the perception that paizo doesn't care if everyone has the product. I'm 100% positive that as a company, paizo would be delighted to sell that many products and that as people they would be delighted to see that many gamers enjoy their products. I would be very surprised (maybe I'm being too optimistic here) if more than an incredibly small minority of people would make this (flawed) inference and subsequently let a lack of some supplemental products from the past prevent them from playing the game.

Tl;dr: I'm sure they would if they could.

I'm still saying, as a newer player and a even newer gm, seeing this, would drive me away right from the start. I say just have runs of it. maybe yearly, or until stock runs out, then say six months later reprint some. Nothing major, but enough that new players can keep getting everything completed. I understand the need to make money, but I think we are missing the point this will cost us a good many new players, because they will think, oh, well they dont care if I dont have everything. And not everyone is fine with pdfs.

If we were talking core material, I'd agree with you. As it is, we're mostly talking Adventure Paths and Player Companions (which are magazine-equivalent products at the end of the day) and Campaign Setting books (the most important of which get reformatted and re-released every once in a while, such as the Inner Sea World Guide being the core campaign setting book's 3rd incarnation). The core bookshelf full of hardbacks any dedicated Pathfinder player would want to assemble are available constantly.

Sure, I imagine there's some "must have everything" players out there that will not get into Pathfinder just because the third ever Player Companion book is no longer available anywhere. You need to weigh up how many of those people really exist and the sales lost against the costs to Paizo (not just the printing costs but the additional competition with their current products) to keep those books in print - you'll probably find out the additional cost outweighs whatever benefit those extra players would bring (and I have to imagine that's precisely the kind of estimation Paizo are doing when they make the decision not to reprint the paperbacks.)

A new player can certainly still get hold of everything they need to play Pathfinder, and more than enough to satisfy the vast majority of players.

Just remember folks the more hardcopies of AP's that get sold out, the better chance of the AP being put into a compiled volume.

If you check out the previous time they listed their "running low" products Going Going Gone Fall 2013 Edition you'll notice that there are still quite a bit on both lists. I didn't go through and count them but their are many of the same items on both lists. Some have moved "down" and a couple have disappeared. To me, this looks like there really isn't a lot of demand for the older stuff when it comes down to it.

Less than 250 on city of locusts a month after release? Awesome. Hope for more mythic cause of these numbers!!

If you check out the previous time they listed their "running low" products Going Going Gone Fall 2013 Edition you'll notice that there are still quite a bit on both lists. I didn't go through and count them but their are many of the same items on both lists. Some have moved "down" and a couple have disappeared. To me, this looks like there really isn't a lot of demand for the older stuff when it comes down to it.

Yeah, that's a good point.

Keep drinking the cool-aid subscribers and thinking that this is a good thing.I have all the core books and that means with this new policy there will be nothing more for me to care to buy. that means less profit overall down the road. sure you say the pdf's will be available but both you and piazo tend to forget we are not living a pirate free internet world. are you that obtuse to believe someone who cannot afford subs or feels jilted by this policy will actually pay for the pdf? a fools paradise i say. So now any new gm's will be forced to go digital. So tell me why should anyone after this buy any hard copies knowing that half there collection is going to be digital. Might as well go all the way.And fyi pick up one of your books and read where it was printed and made. Piazo is not paying as much as you would like to believe they are for those printed books. In the end this is not economically a sound decision and i know im not alone in this... spoiler alert printed in china.

I have all the core books and that means with this new policy there will be nothing more for me to care to buy.

I obviously think you're wrong about the rest, but it's worth noting this isnt a new policy. It's been that way since Paizo started publishing books. It doesnt seem to have done them much harm so far.

Keep drinking the cool-aid subscribers and thinking that this is a good thing.

I dont think it's a good thing, I think it's necessary. Losing money is bad business and the increased cost of small print runs is enormous (I've never looked into it at Paizo's scale, but I have looked at printing 100-500-1000-5000 copies and the cost per unit decreases exponentially at each of those levels).

it's worth noting this isn't a new policy. It's been that way since Paizo started publishing books.

True. Paizo has never* reprinted softcovers. RotRL #1 went out of print years ago. Here's a thread by Vic Wertz explaining why from 2009.

Steve Geddes wrote:

it's worth noting this isn't a new policy. It's been that way since Paizo started publishing books.

True. Paizo has never* reprinted softcovers. RotRL #1 went out of print years ago. Here's a thread by Vic Wertz explaining why from 2009.

** spoiler omitted **

Distant Worlds was another exception, from memory.

Keep drinking the cool-aid subscribers and thinking that this is a good thing.I have all the core books and that means with this new policy there will be nothing more for me to care to buy. that means less profit overall down the road. sure you say the pdf's will be available but both you and piazo tend to forget we are not living a pirate free internet world. are you that obtuse to believe someone who cannot afford subs or feels jilted by this policy will actually pay for the pdf? a fools paradise i say. So now any new gm's will be forced to go digital. So tell me why should anyone after this buy any hard copies knowing that half there collection is going to be digital. Might as well go all the way.And fyi pick up one of your books and read where it was printed and made. Piazo is not paying as much as you would like to believe they are for those printed books. In the end this is not economically a sound decision and i know im not alone in this... spoiler alert printed in china.

This sale isn't anything new; Paizo does this a couple times a year. As for the rest of your post, you aren't bringing up anything that hasn't been talked/debated to death a hundred times over in the past 7 or 8 years. This is business as usual.

-Skeld

Scott Jacobs 770 wrote:

Keep drinking the cool-aid subscribers and thinking that this is a good thing.

I dont think it's a good thing, I think it's necessary. Losing money is bad business and the increased cost of small print runs is enormous (I've never looked into it at Paizo's scale, but I have looked at printing 100-500-1000-5000 copies and the cost per unit decreases exponentially at each of those levels).

Pretty much this. I can't believe anyone likes it, any more than anyone likes taxes, but both are realities we have to accept.

Maybe one day Paizo will get that affordable print-on-demand system installed, of course, but until then they're in the same boat as every other RPG (or book, to be fair) publisher. I could name other publishers (but will not, as I like them too much) whose actual core rules are unavailable right now - that can't be good for business either, but getting a few more thousand copies run off and shipped over isn't something you just click your fingers and make happen. At least Pathfinder doesn't fall to that level of service, we can pretty much always find core rulebooks.

The longer Pathfinder stays around, the worse it'll get, but conversely the less likely that anyone is going to start playing and want to (and be able to afford to!) buy five or more years worth of back product. The average GM will grab a CRB and a Bestiary and start there. Grabbing a dozen or more of the past APs is nice, but hardly necessary to actually play the game.

I am the most OCD collector I know when it comes to RPGs, but even I drew the line there and started my AP collection with Wrath of the Righteous. I've gone back and bought a few others since, but I'm not angry about something like Kingmaker being OOP (disappointed, sure, but it's not the end of the world.) On the other hand, having a full set of the hardback line (CRB, the Bestiaries, GamesMastery Guide, NPC Codex, all the "Ultimate" books) was very important to me, and I'm very happy that Paizo have ensured they're all still available - the worst wait I had was about 6 weeks when the GamesMastery guide was out of print, and I somehow managed to cope :)

I am the most OCD collector I know when it comes to RPGs,

Hi matt. Steve. Pleased to meet you.

There's a certain amount of free-floating entitlement out there. "It's your job to keep all your APs in print forever for my convenience!"

I have some issues with Paizo and their business model. But one of the things I really like about them is that they seem to be competent business people. Historically, that's been all too rare in the gaming industry.

As long as they stay in business, they can keep producing new stuff for our amusement and distraction. The current model of letting old APs gradually lapse out of print may not be perfect, but there are pretty clear and strong business-driven arguments for it, and it seems to have been working for them for (checks calendar) six, going on seven years now.

Doug M.

As to stuff staying on this list, some of it is on there because nobody's buying it, and some is because they've gotten their hands on additional copies -- most likely by clawing them back from distributors, as Liz mentions above, but possibly by other means as well. They're not really under any obligation to tell us the gritty details of how they do business.

I don't pay much attention to these sales, myself -- at this point I've been hanging around Paizo for several years, and have bought most of what I'm likely to pick up from their back catalog. But they pretty clearly serve a useful function... you can see what's going away, whether quickly or slowly, and decide if you want to to snap it up. It seems odd to fault Paizo for doing this.

Doug M.

Maybe one day Paizo will get that affordable print-on-demand system installed, of course, but until then they're in the same boat as every other RPG (or book, to be fair) publisher.

The cost per unit for print-on-demand is heinous compared to traditional printing—just try and price anything through Lulu, Lightning Source, or CreateSpace for a similarly sized 96-page, perfect bound, glossy stock, cardstock cover. The biggest cost in print-on-demand is setup and takedown of the press, a part of the reason the price is so high. With volume printing, it's pretty much one setup and go—the *quantity* printed means very little at that point, and ink and paper minor concerns overall. Quality is another concern, but that's improving rapidly.

But yeah. Affordable, high quality, print-on-demand would be great for any number of reasons. :)

I'm still saying, as a newer player and a even newer gm, seeing this, would drive me away right from the start.

I really hate to say this, because god knows the hobby doesn't need any obstacles for new participants -- but if you have the "must be able to collect every single item at cover price" mentality, then Pathfinder may not be the franchise for you. Unless something drastic happens, there *will* be in Pathfinder things going out of print and skyrocketing in price. If you're not willing to pay the secondary market premium for books five years old, yet absolutely must have every single one of them, you're just setting yourself up for heartbreak. It ain't gonna happen.

I say just have runs of it. maybe yearly, or until stock runs out, then say six months later reprint some. Nothing major, but enough that new players can keep getting everything completed. I understand the need to make money, but I think we are missing the point this will cost us a good many new players

But then, if they price 32-page Companions at $50 a pop, there will be cries of "ripoff", when people don't understand that small runs are MUCH more expensive to do. People will refuse to buy them because they're priced so high, and then you'll have the same problem *anyway* -- costing us a good many new players, because the reprints are so expensive. So it's not like you'd solve anything.

Just remember folks the more hardcopies of AP's that get sold out, the better chance of the AP being put into a compiled volume.

I'm not sure that really factors into it. I think Paizo is pretty dead set on not making AP compilations outside very special cases, not just "hey, this sold out, let's compile it!"

Keep drinking the cool-aid subscribers and thinking that this is a good thing.

I'm pretty sure nobody thinks it's a *good* thing that products go out of print. But I think there are some people who understand that it has to happen because money isn't infinite. Just like it's not a good thing that I don't have a mansion and a yacht, but, well, I don't have Bill Gates footing the bill for them, so I have to just live with not having them.

And a few books struck from the available list!

i find it interesting that AP 78 City of Locusts already has less than 250 copies left.

Big seller or were fewer copies printed?

I'm impressed by the Magnimar guide, too. That's pretty quick for a softcover to sell out.

Joana wrote:

Steve Geddes wrote:

it's worth noting this isn't a new policy. It's been that way since Paizo started publishing books.

True. Paizo has never* reprinted softcovers. RotRL #1 went out of print years ago. Here's a thread by Vic Wertz explaining why from 2009.

** spoiler omitted **

Distant Worlds was another exception, from memory.

how about Adventure's Armory?

Steve Geddes wrote:

Joana wrote:

Steve Geddes wrote:

it's worth noting this isn't a new policy. It's been that way since Paizo started publishing books.

True. Paizo has never* reprinted softcovers. RotRL #1 went out of print years ago. Here's a thread by Vic Wertz explaining why from 2009.

** spoiler omitted **

Distant Worlds was another exception, from memory.

how about Adventure's Armory?

That was in the omitted spoiler. :)

Well, I will be spending a good chunk of my bonus to get these in the next week at my local store, Madness Games and Comics. I would like to make a request of the team in the future. Please run these titles for a 4-7 year run. Then, announce their retirement and give others a year to get them before closing them out. This is a big chuck of materials and unless you plan to redo them in compilations, it robs people who convert to Pathfinder from D&D the experience of them (like me who has been doing Pathfinder for 7 months).

And I agree, some of these just came out. So, are you converting up to a new revision or edition of the rules that you are getting rid of these so soon? And, can we expect the same from upcoming adventure paths, player companions and other books?