Eidolon Slams

I'm sorry if this has been answered already, but I find the Eidolon kind of confusing.

So the Biped Eidolon has two natural attacks, if I spend the Slam evolution does it now have two Slam attacks? Or one slam attack and one claw attack? Do I need two Slam evolutions to get both attacks?

I used to be smarter that this...

Claws (Ex)

An eidolon has a pair of vicious claws at the end of its limbs, giving it two claw attacks. These attacks are primary attacks. The claws deal 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). The eidolon must have the limbs evolution to take this evolution. This evolution can only be applied to the limbs (legs) evolution once. This evolution can be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess an equal number of the limbs evolution.

compared to

Slam (Ex)

An eidolon can deliver a devastating slam attack. This attack is a primary attack. The slam deals 1d8 points of damage (2d6 if Large, 2d8 if Huge). The eidolon must have the limbs (arms) evolution to take this evolution. Alternatively, the eidolon can replace the claws from its base form with this slam attack (this still costs 1 evolution point). This evolution can be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess an equal number of the limbs evolution.

(Emphasis bine in both quotes.)

What I want to show is:
"Claws", plural vs "Slam", singular.
One limb evolution (equals two legs or arms) paired with either two claw attacks or one slam attack.
Furtheron, "Replace the claws ... with this slam attack" - change two for one. It does not say "Replace the claws ... with two slam attacks" or "Replace one of the claws ... with this slam attack", which it would have to if it were to be handled differently.

So, by the RAW, if you take the Slam evolution for a biped without extra limbs, you give up the two claw attacks for one slam attack.

Related Sub-Question: Is there any reason a biped eidolon, with its Max. 3 attack base, can't simply add a Slam attack without replacing its claws? It meets the requirements for the evolution (it has limbs(arms)), after all.

As well, at level 4, can it add a second slam, as it has two limbs evolutions (and it seems irrelevant that the second one is technically limbs(legs)), which is what determines your maximum number of slams?

it is within the rules to put up to one set of claws on feet. nothing about the biped requires the free claws to be on his arms. thus you could then throw the slam onto the "empty" arms. i did this while describing his form as having very long(reach) legs coming out where a human would sprout arms and a pair of small arms like a t-rex popping out his lower abs that together did a simultaneous double fist slam(1 attack).

Since the OP talked about replacing the two attacks, I haven't thought about that other pair of limbs. I apologize.

You both are of course correct.

The last sentence of my earlier post should thus be replaced by:

"So, by the RAW, if you take the Slam evolution for a biped eidolon without extra limbs, you have distribute it to either your arms. You can then assort the claw evolution (and the two claw attacks) to your legs. You'd then have three primary natural attacks total."

And yes, you could take a second slam at any time (as long as you have two pairs of arms), but if you had no other limbs, you'd then have to replace the claws. But you can always shift your first pair of claws to a pair of legs.

Now that I think of it... Why should anyone ever take Slam and replace the claws when he can move them to the legs?

Because one of the sets of claws becomes a secondary attack at -5?

Because one of the sets of claws becomes a secondary attack at -5?

Natural weapons only ever become secondary if you wield a manufactured weapon.

Now that I think of it... Why should anyone ever take Slam and replace the claws when he can move them to the legs?

Effects like Weapon Focus which apply to only one sort of attack, most likely.

At least, that'd be my guess.

I'm curious, where does it say that you can only have one attack form per limb set? What's to stop you from making both a slam and claw attack with your arms? Does it even make a difference mechanically?

I'm curious, where does it say that you can only have one attack form per limb set? What's to stop you from making both a slam and claw attack with your arms? Does it even make a difference mechanically?

I couldn't find this myself. There was developer clarification at some point the intent with weapons was that a creature had to give up a natural attack per weapon wielded, but I dont know any reason a humanoid eidolon can't have two claw evolutions (arms and legs) and two slams, for instance.

It says it in the description of the slam evolution for the eidolon. I would read the slam evolution description to state that if you are a biped, you get either claws or slam, but to have both you must buy claws separately for your feet.

Arryn Raven wrote:

I'm curious, where does it say that you can only have one attack form per limb set? What's to stop you from making both a slam and claw attack with your arms? Does it even make a difference mechanically?

I couldn't find this myself. There was developer clarification at some point the intent with weapons was that a creature had to give up a natural attack per weapon wielded, but I dont know any reason a humanoid eidolon can't have two claw evolutions (arms and legs) and two slams, for instance.

Well it does say under slam that you need an equal amount of limbs evolutions for slam evolutions, which makes sense. I don't, however, see why an Eidolon can't slam and then use two claw attacks with it's arms.

Does anyone have clarification for this?

It says it in the description of the slam evolution for the eidolon. I would read the slam evolution description to state that if you are a biped, you get either claws or slam, but to have both you must buy claws separately for your feet.

But thats not what it says at all. It says you can replace the claws, and that you need limbs (arms) to take it, but not that you can't use any old limbs evolution for additional slams or that they are exclusive to a limb for natural attacks.

So, to be clear, if a biped Eidolon is using a two-handed weapon and wants to buy a Slam attack, it first has to buy some extra limbs?

So, to be clear, if a biped Eidolon is using a two-handed weapon and wants to buy a Slam attack, it first has to buy some extra limbs?

Actually, the logical flow is the opposite, but yes.

If you buy a slam attack and only have one pair of arms, the "slot" of these arms is occupied by the slam attack. Therefore, you have no hands that could use any weapons.

You only got one "slot" per pair of limbs. Either it's empty (giving you feet or hands) or it gets filled with a type of natural weapon. It's like magic item slots, basically.

So, to be clear, if a biped Eidolon is using a two-handed weapon and wants to buy a Slam attack, it first has to buy some extra limbs?

Strictly speaking, the answer is no.

However, if you only have one pair of arms, then in any given round you have to choose whether to use the weapon or the slam. You might choose to do that if the weapon in question is a crossbow, for example.

You do need two pairs of arms if you want to use a weapon attack and a slam in the same round.

Limbs (Ex)

An eidolon grows an additional pair of limbs. These limbs can take one of two forms. They can be made into legs, complete with feet. Each pair of legs increases the eidolon’s base speed by 10 feet. Alternatively, they can be made into arms, complete with hands. The eidolon does not gain any additional natural attacks for an additional pair of arms, but it can take other evolutions that add additional attacks (such as claws or a slam). Arms that have hands can be used to wield weapons, if the eidolon is proficient. This evolution can be selected more than once.

So you're reading it that you could take one pair of arms, stack X kinds of natural attacks into that one pair of arms, still have hands that can wield weapons, and choose each round which one you want to use?

The way I read it, the bolded part says that not all arms have hands, as in, when they get a natural attack, they aren't hands anymore.
The following part also says that you can only wield weapons in arms with hands, not in arms with claws, not in arms with slam.

I think the "that have hands" phrase is redundant. Lizardfolk have claws but can use weapons, while vampires have slam attacks but can use weapons as well. I suppose pincers would replace hands, but that is the only full replacement that I can visualize.

Quote:
Claws (Ex)

An eidolon has a pair of vicious claws at the end of its limbs, giving it two claw attacks. These attacks are primary attacks. The claws deal 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). The eidolon must have the limbs evolution to take this evolution. This evolution can only be applied to the limbs (legs) evolution once. This evolution can be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess an equal number of the limbs evolution.

compared to
Quote:

Slam (Ex)

An eidolon can deliver a devastating slam attack. This attack is a primary attack. The slam deals 1d8 points of damage (2d6 if Large, 2d8 if Huge). The eidolon must have the limbs (arms) evolution to take this evolution. Alternatively, the eidolon can replace the claws from its base form with this slam attack (this still costs 1 evolution point). This evolution can be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess an equal number of the limbs evolution.

Limbs (Ex)

An eidolon grows an additional pair of limbs. These limbs can take one of two forms. They can be made into legs, complete with feet. Each pair of legs increases the eidolon’s base speed by 10 feet. Alternatively, they can be made into arms, complete with hands. The eidolon does not gain any additional natural attacks for an additional pair of arms, but it can take other evolutions that add additional attacks (such as claws or a slam). Arms that have hands can be used to wield weapons, if the eidolon is proficient. This evolution can be selected more than once.

Note that the claws evolutions lets an eidolon have it more than once, and the limitation taking the claws evolution more than once is the the number of limbs evolutions, not limbs (arms) evolutions.

The slam evolution uses the same language. The limitation on the number of times an eidolon can have it (beyond the natural attacks limit), is the number of limbs evolutions that the eidolon has, not the number of limbs (arms) evolution. A reader can interpret the slam evolution to mean that an eidolon can't take it the first time unless it has one set of limbs (arms), but after that the eidolon can take it multiple times on the limbs (legs).

Thus, a quadraped form with one limbs (arms) evolutions could have the slam evolution three times (assuming natural attack limitations were not an issue). Mechanically speaking, it takes more evolution points to cap out the number of natural attacks with slam than with other evolutions, because an eidolon will have to take extra limbs, thus there is still balance.

If it helps, picture a bucking quadraped in you head, slamming with both legs at the same time.

Except that is what the Hooves Evolution is for.

as a DM if you used slam(arms), claws(feet) with a bidal, i would req acro checks to stay on your feet... possibly making tripping easier against you since some of the time you not on the ground.

Why would anyone take one slam attack over two claw attacks???

as a DM if you used slam(arms), claws(feet) with a bidal, i would req acro checks to stay on your feet... possibly making tripping easier against you since some of the time you not on the ground.

If you really do that, then you're a jerk GM, IesjirIsk. Punishing your players for following the rules as they were intended? That makes absolutely no sense. Are you not supposed to be promoting FUN as the resident GM?

Flavor reasons, RD.

*Seranov accidentally steps on one of RD's hot button issues*

The whole point of FLAVOR is that it has ZERO effect on MECHANICS!

There is absolutely NOTHING in the rules that says having claws on your feet makes it harder to walk or move about. Many creatures in real life and monsters in the game manage it just fine ALL THE FREAKING TIME.

I'll say it again, making such a ruling does NOTHING but punishes your players for FOLLOWING THE RULES OF THE GAME. That makes absolutely no sense. GMs are supposed to promote FUN AND CREATIVITY, NOT ARBITRARILY LIMIT IT!

Not the tripping bit. The Slam bit.

a jerk? how is your eidolon hitting with all in a round? what is he standing on? i play summoners, and enjoy summoners. but, causing a bipedal to be in the air while fighting a good bit of the time. Your idea of intent i think is off.

Can you come with a good reason not to. I am not unreasonable. Never said it would be a hard DC. You give me a good enough reason, i may even consider not requiring a check. Lui Kang kick charge. Eddy from tekken...

Even in fantasy is some semblance of realism. Do you let your fighters swing a sword and kick with both feet in a round (excluding monk here, who presumably has some practice.)

and for walking, unless you walking on a greased floor, i wouldn't req a check... that would be jerkish... walking with claws is fine, even clawing with feet i could see, its using both at once i would have an issue with.

Velociraptors, which, by the way, are available to Druids at very early levels.

There are plenty of real animals that attack with their feet.

hmm... a fair point. I dunno. wont be the first time i have retconned something after saying it.

Besides, nowhere does 'in the same round' actually means 'at the same time' A round is six seconds, plenty of time to attack with one limb and then another, if need be, rather than trying to hop awkwardly in place, all limbs flailing.

Nuku... the image i got reading that makes me chuckle... and fair enough.

Why would anyone take one slam attack over two claw attacks???

Slam has a higher base damage die value (Starts at d8 instead of d4 for a claw). With improved natural attack and the improved damage evolution, a d8 slam becomes a 3d6 base attack, as opposed to a d4 claw becoming a d8 claw with the same.

Also, EIDOLON SMASH!!!!

Is improved natural attack PFS legal?

Am I really the only one who clicked on this thread hoping to see examples of insults eidolons might use, or "burns" or "slams" to use on eidolons?

"You so ugly yo mama sent you off to get adopted by some fool mortal summoner!" "Yo build so broken the breaker barbarian wants to wield you as a weapon!"

That sort of thing.

Is improved natural attack PFS legal?

The additional resources document has the Bestiary as a legal source, which is where Improved Natural Attack comes from.

From PFS Guide to Organized Play, version 4.2:
"Unless noted otherwise in this guide, everything contained in the Core Rulebook and Pathfinder Society Field Guide is legal for Pathfinder Society play."

"Step 5: Feats
Characters select feats according to the guidelines in the Core Rulebook. Certain Core Rulebook feats are not available to Pathfinder Society characters. These include Brew Potion, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Rod, Craft Staff, Craft Wand, Craft Wondrous Item, Forge Ring, Leadership, and Scribe Scroll. Neither the craft feats nor the item creation section of the magic items chapter in the Core Rulebook are legal for play. Additionally, except for specific examples cited in this guide or the Pathfinder Society FAQ, crafting of mundane items is not allowed in Pathfinder Society.
Paizo.com/pathfindersociety/additionalResources contains a book-by-book listing of all campaign-legal feat choices beyond the Core Rulebook. Check there before taking any feats from a non-Core Rulebook source."

Page 153 of the Core Rulebook lists Improved Natural Attack as a valid animal companion feat choice.

From page 314 of the Bestiary: "Monster feats
Most of the following feats apply specifically to monsters,
although some player characters might qualify for them
(particularly Craft Construct)."

From the Organized play additional resources document (Dec 19, 2012):
"Since the core assumption for Pathfinder Society Organized Play is the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook, Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Pathfinder Society Field Guide, and the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary,"

Given the above, I would say Improved Natural Attack is allowed in PFS.

Wait, it's from the core book? I didn't see it in there.

As a side question, what does the end of a leg look like on an eidolon that done not have a claw or hoof attack, webbed hands, etc.? Left to our imaginations I suppose, but it would be some sort of blob or have a toenail(s) I guess.

Whatever your imagination likes, but not combat ready. Could be clawed paws, but the claws are blunt and short and not good for more than an unarmed attack. Could be hooves, but, again, no more good than an unarmed attack. Could be perfectly flat stumps, like certain pastel colored ponies.

As a side question, what does the end of a leg look like on an eidolon that done not have a claw or hoof attack, webbed hands, etc.? Left to our imaginations I suppose, but it would be some sort of blob or have a toenail(s) I guess.

Human feet

Slam is a trap option, ignore it unless you are looking to de-optimize.

Slam is a trap option, ignore it unless you are looking to de-optimize.

It makes sense if you want to make the most of natural attack AoOs.

It makes sense if you want to make the most of natural attack AoOs.

If you want to make the most of your AoOs you get martial training and use a nice big two handed weapon.

Eidolons are not animal companions nor are they explicitly granted the option of selecting the Improved Natural Attack feat and therefore cannot take that feat in PFS.

Deadmoon wrote:

It makes sense if you want to make the most of natural attack AoOs.

If you want to make the most of your AoOs you get martial training and use a nice big two handed weapon.

And make all your natural attacks secondary.

And make all your natural attacks secondary.

Who said you'd use it in your full attack sequence?

BTW where is the rule that you get more than 1/2 strength on an AoO attack with a secondary natural attack? I guess if you only had slams you'd get 1x strength, but that would be a phenomenally inefficient build.

Even if I missed a rule and it does get 1x strength bonus on an AoO it would still generally not be the best AoO natural attack though ... the 2x bite at 1 1/2 strength is almost always going to be better even with the smaller damage dice.

So in short, it's a complete and utter trap option.

Eidolons are not animal companions nor are they explicitly granted the option of selecting the Improved Natural Attack feat and therefore cannot take that feat in PFS.

Only because PFS has a specific rule on bestiary feats which prohibits it, it's a PFS houserule.

I'm sorry to open a weeks old thread, but I too am a bit confused on this matter.

Example. Say I have a quadruped Eidolon and have taken the limbs (arms) evolution. I had then taken the claws evolution, placing that evolution on those same arms.

In this scenario, would I be allowed, to purchase the slam evolution and place it on those same arms? So, with that one pair of arms, would I be able to go, Claw, Claw, Slam?

Logically I can't see why not. I mean if I have fingers hands with claws, I don't see why I couldn't slam with those same arms. If there is solid rules that say you can't however, I'll have to figure out some other primary attack I can pull off at 4th level (with just 2 points) if I've used all of my evolution points at 3rd level.

If there is solid rules that say you can't however

Solidity is in the eye of the beholder, but the fact that buying slam for arms which have claws in the base form replaces those claws is a clincher for most people.

Third Mind wrote:

If there is solid rules that say you can't however

Solidity is in the eye of the beholder, but the fact that buying slam for arms which have claws in the base form replaces those claws is a clincher for most people.

A quadruped doesn't even have arms in the base form, and furthermore, it has legs and claws. I am not sure why he would add arms to a quadruped and say the arms had claws on them, but he sure doesn't lose them when he takes a slam evolution to use on the arms. "Slam, claw, claw" is a legal attack routine for a quadruped with the Limbs (arms) and Slam evolutions, and in the specific case of eidolons, there is no requirement for continuity when selecting evolutions when leveling up. Completely new combinations of evolutions may be selected, and the physical structure of the creature reimagined, within the restrictions of the base form. If he wants to say the claws are on the arms, I think that is ok as long as he understands that it is just fluff, and that the limb requirement of the claw attack is being satisfied by the legs.

Deadmoon wrote:

And make all your natural attacks secondary.

Who said you'd use it in your full attack sequence?

BTW where is the rule that you get more than 1/2 strength on an AoO attack with a secondary natural attack? I guess if you only had slams you'd get 1x strength, but that would be a phenomenally inefficient build.

Even if I missed a rule and it does get 1x strength bonus on an AoO it would still generally not be the best AoO natural attack though ... the 2x bite at 1 1/2 strength is almost always going to be better even with the smaller damage dice.

So in short, it's a complete and utter trap option.

AFAIK, it's better to have many primary attacks rather than a weapon and many secondary attacks.

I looked for the differences between investing Evolution points in

• Extra Limbs(arms) & Martial Weapons training
  versus
  
• 3 different Energy Attacks

The damage per turn is consistently better with the primary natural attacks (ranging from no difference against AC16 to 15 more points of damage per turn vs AC29).
Of course, attacking Very High ACs means only hitting it with natural 20s, but then, you are facing a AC34 monster and dealing 5 hitpoints per turn. If you have a Greataxe, you can make two additional attacks, dealing a single additional hitpoint (average) per turn... drop the axe and flee, man!