Pathfinder Player Companion: Champions of Balance (PFRPG)

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Pathfinder Player Companion: Champions of Balance (PFRPG)
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Even the Odds!

Whether you fight for law, chaos, or a philosophy in between, Pathfinder Player Companion: Champions of Balance allows you to tip the scales in your favor! Make sure your resolve is known by claiming the new options in this book designed specifically for neutral characters—hone your pragmatic battle prowess with new combat feats, overwhelm your extremist rivals with never-before-seen items, and even command opposing forces from the Outer Planes with powerful new summoning magic.

Inside this book, you’ll find:

  • Discussions on how to create a huge variety of lawful neutral, neutral, and chaotic neutral characters and inspire neutral heroes and antiheroes.
  • New traits and rules for characters who hail from neutral lands or belong to one of the Inner Sea’s various neutral organizations.
  • New spells, magic items, feats, and other character options to embolden adventurers dedicated to the principles of neutrality.
  • Rules for an all-new prestige class committed to maintaining moral and ethical equilibrium throughout the multiverse—the enigmatic envoy of balance!
  • New archetypes for bards and druids, a cavalier order, a sorcerer bloodline, subdomains, and more!

This Pathfinder Player Companion is intended for use with the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game and the Pathfinder campaign setting, but can easily be incorporated into any fantasy world.

Written by Matt Goodall, Jason Ridler, Ron Lundeen, David Schwartz, and Philip Minchin.
Cover Art by Kieran Yanner.

ISBN-13: 978-1-60125-603-4

Other Resources: This product is also available on the following platforms:

Hero Lab Online
Fantasy Grounds Virtual Tabletop
Archives of Nethys

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Everyman Product Reviews: Champions of Balance

4/5

Final Score & Thoughts
Crunch: 3/5 Stars
Flavor: 3/5 Stars
Texture: 5/5 Stars
Final Score: 11/15 Stars, or 3.5 / 5 Stars, rounded up for it’s layout.

Champions of Balance is one of my favorite Paizo products because of it’s beautiful layout. The colors throughout the product complement themselves perfectly and it’s extremely pleasing to look at. While the flavor could be stronger, I felt that this product was worth it’s price by merit of the Practiced Leadership feat alone; it is a new mechanic that I would love to see expanded upon in the future. Note that most of the other options in this product are great, it’s just that nothing stands out as the iconic, quintessential Neutral character option. And honestly, that’s okay considering that Neutrality is much harder for us to quantify as players compared to something easily identifiable such as Good or Evil. Despite my critiques, this is an excellent book to check out and a worthy addition to your collection for the reasons I’ve noted.

Check out the full review at the Everyman Gaming blog.


Ring Side Report- RPG Review of Champions of Balance

5/5

Originally posted on www.throatpunchgames.com, a new idea everyday.

Product- Pathfinder Player Companion- Champions of Balance
Producer-Paizo
Price- $20 or $13 for PDR
System- Pathfinder
TL;DR- Slight story concerns, but awesome character options.93%

Basics- Time for the epic battle of good vs. neutral! Champions of Balance covers the hows and whys of neutral characters. The first section covers the types of neutral characters (LN, N, and CN). Next the book discusses neutral countries and organizations. From here, the book introduces new character options from new subdomains, ninja tricks, feats, spells, orders, archetypes, magic items, and a prestige class.

Fluff or Theme- I liked and didn't like this one. The story and backgrounds of neutral characters is well written, but it didn't hook me. I didn't hate reading it, but neutral characters have an uphill battle for getting me as a motivation. What I saw was well done, but it just isn't what I want in a character. And I think many other readers will have the same problem. 4/5

Crunch or Mechanics- This was really well done! There is an amazing amount of stuff in this book. Almost all the classes get a bit of stuff even more than most of the player companion line. Even if you don't care about neutral characters, this one is worth a look for the plethora of options alone. 5/5

Execution- This one is as well done as any of the other player option book. Lots of art and well done layouts make this a pleasure to read. Well done. 5/5

Summary- This book might not have hooked me on story, but everything else is amazing. If you play or want to play a neutral character, then you need this to make a well done and flesh out character. Even if you want some character option, this is an excellent book. 93%


Excellent examination of neutrality!

5/5

Read my full review on Of Dice and Pen.

Champions of Balance is quite a remarkable book and exceeds my already high expectations of it. I’m not a fan of alignment overall, and I honestly think the game could be improved without it—though it would entail quite a bit of work to make the change. However, if it’s going to be there, you might as well make the best of it. Yet alignment can be a difficult thing to adjudicate. Good and evil can be hard to fully define, and if you can’t define good and evil, then how do you define what fits between them? In the real world, these are just abstract concepts. Everyone has their own concept of what good and evil are, and they bring these concepts with them into the game. Yet in the game, alignment is not so abstract; indeed, it is an absolute concept where one can be objectively defined as “lawful good” or “chaotic evil”. In the real world, most people will agree that other people can behave in evil ways, but virtually no one would ever actually admit to being evil, as no one actually believes themselves to be evil. There are always justifications and reason for actions. Yet in-game, a detect evil spell can state quite clearly that someone is evil and there’s little one can do to argue against it. Outsiders representing the ideals of particular alignments exist in the multiverse. These powerful beings’ very existences are centred on, and defined by, their alignments. As such, the game needs a clear definition of what good and evil are. I’m not sure that that definition has been fully attained—it probably hasn’t, as there will still be disagreements between players—but books like Champions of Purity and now, Champions of Balance have moved things a little closer to achieving that definition.


The Best players companion to hit so far this year

5/5

After last months Bastards of Golarion I was worried I wasn't in the best of spirits for this books release, worried that it would be another book with weak mechanical offerings and content that is either too focused on small sections of the pathfinder homeworld or just not that interesting all together. I can tell you here that this book is nothing like Bastards, literally everything in this from the thematic elements, the new mechanics, and the discussions on the nuances between the neutral alignments is solid gold.

Inside you will get 32 pages of solid content awesome starting with an excellent discussion of the various nuances of the neutral alignment from how being LN does not mean that you cannot break laws to how CN does not mean you can play it like you are CE. These sections are incredibly well written, providing numerous examples of archetypes that exist within those alignments and some guidelines as to how to play those alignments well and in a fulfilling way. The rest of the book focuses on the various new mechanical offerings along with information on various references to many of the major nations and factions of Golarion and how to incorporate characters into those organization. As for the mechanical options they are all awesome, from the new gun twirling bullet naming death that are the new gunslinger feats to the new Impossible bloodline every piece of mechanics presented in this book is not only well thought out but evocative, leaving you wanting to play with them and build characters that take advantage of their abilities. Special mention must also be given to the 2 new archetypes presented here The Negotiator Bard and Survivor Druid. The former is basically a bard turned into professional lawyer, able to talk himself out of near any situation and convince people of just about anything he says. Meanwhile the Survivor Druid is like a survivalist or primitive hunter variant, trading some of your spellcasting and your wildshape ability for the trap mechanics presented in Ultimate Magic. In all honesty these are both some of my favorite archetypes I've seen all year, the bard fills a perfect niche that I have desperately been looking for in a bard archetype and the Survivor is such a cool option for druids, putting a whole new spin on the usual protectors of nature, setting them up as a magical trapper who supplements his hunting and trapping with more potent magical power. That alone has got my mind whirring on dozens of new druids alone and with the dozens of other options that this book presents in content I know I'm going to have more then enough to play with both as a gm, player, and pathfinder society member for the next year at least!

Now if you'll excuse me, I have a cavalier of the scales hellknight to design, an impossible sorcerer, and figuring out if I can give my slayer the blood pact ninja trick.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

The 'Holster as a free action' bit only states that you have to have at least one Grit left in your pool, I think.
As I don't have my PDF with me, I cant say with certainty anything more than that.

Contributor

Mikaze wrote:
Kvantum wrote:
Kevin Mack wrote:
Any good Iconic art in this book (Lini specificly?)

There's a nice piece of her that gets re-used for the back cover of her, eyes shut in quiet contemplation, as she holds a beautiful bright red rose in one hand and a dead, decaying one in the other.

So, yes. Every neutrally-aligned Iconic gets at least one piece. Bathazar's is used for the new Summon Neutral Monster feat, similar to the one from Champions of Purity.

Yeah, the Lini piece might be my favorite one for that character.

Wondering if Balazar is a lock for Champions of Corruption...

Balazar is summoning an inevitable on the final page of Champions of Balance.

Contributor

Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:

The 'Holster as a free action' bit only states that you have to have at least one Grit left in your pool, I think.

As I don't have my PDF with me, I cant say with certainty anything more than that.

You are correct.

Contributor

The Golux wrote:
Actually, doesn't gun twirling (assuming GM Allowance for number of free actions) make a dual-wielding full-attacking pistolero build possible without an alchemist dip or prehensile tail? Or is it limited in number of times per round or cost grit each time?

If you have enough pistols to draw, sure.

Contributor

The NPC wrote:
Any summoner evolutions?

Nope.


Alexander Augunas wrote:
The NPC wrote:
Any summoner evolutions?
Nope.

Le sigh....


Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Ezakim wrote:

flips to page 27

>:(

Uh oh, what lurks on page 27?

A personal attack!

Silver Crusade

doc the grey wrote:
Mikaze wrote:

@doc the grey and NPC: I don't have it in front of me at the moment, but there was talk about various organizations that have a heavy neutral slant like the Kalistrade, Green Faith, Hellknights, and such. I don't think there was anything especially human-centric, but I haven't read the whole book.

There aren't any new evolutions, but the back interior cover has the Summon Neutral Creature feat much like Champion of Purity's Good version. It calls in various neutral fey early on, then proteans, aeons, psychopomps, and inevitables. It also adds the Counterpoised simple template to creatures from the standard summon list, which has its own resistances and DR as well as the Smite Bias ability, which targets the four corner alignments(LG, CG, CE, and LE).

Does it have any requirements? I have a summoner cleric of Groetus in pfs that might just love that feat.

Can't get to the PDF at the moment, but I think it has equivalent requirements as Summon Good Creature. You should be good for it. :)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Pretty certain the only requirements are you have to be Neutral Aligned & capable of casting Summoning spells, but as I posted earlier, I don't have my PDF with me at the moment.


Mechalibur wrote:
Gromnar wrote:
Is there anything Calistria-related in the book, or options that would benefit worshippers of her?

From what I understand this book is mostly non-religious stuff for neutral characters, since the "Faiths of" series handled those (although the options for Calistria were pretty bad in that book.)

Maybe they are waiting for Gods of the Inner Sea to give her some loving.


Elrawien Lantherion wrote:
Mechalibur wrote:
Gromnar wrote:
Is there anything Calistria-related in the book, or options that would benefit worshippers of her?

From what I understand this book is mostly non-religious stuff for neutral characters, since the "Faiths of" series handled those (although the options for Calistria were pretty bad in that book.)

Maybe they are waiting for Gods of the Inner Sea to give her some loving.

But loving isn't her bag, but i'm sure she'll get plenty of attention ;)


Alexander Augunas wrote:
The Golux wrote:
Actually, doesn't gun twirling (assuming GM Allowance for number of free actions) make a dual-wielding full-attacking pistolero build possible without an alchemist dip or prehensile tail? Or is it limited in number of times per round or cost grit each time?
If you have enough pistols to draw, sure.

Aside from the derringer method (which can be hilarious), if you can, after firing twin pistols, holster one pistol as a free action, reload the other one as a free action, holster the loaded one as a free action, draw the first one as a free action, load that one as a free action, and then draw the other one as a free action (which clearly would involve basically juggling, but seems to be allowed by this deed), you can repeat that sequence of actions and full attack with the two guns, juggling and reloading between attacks.

It just requires your GM to allow a dozen or more free actions per round...

(this is presuming you have the other things you need, quick draw, rapid reload, and alchemical cartridges. And, does Lightning Reload only work once per round? I forget.)


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

What does the book have for neutral necromancer's?


Kvantum wrote:
Mechalibur wrote:
Huh, that looks pretty cool. It actually doesn't even seem that overpowered to me, especially since it's a 1/day capstone.

My big issue is it's essentially not just one but two 9th level spells, one arcane only and the other divine only (domains, mysteries, and bloodlines aside) that a 15th level character can have access to. A Wizard 5/Envoy of Balance 10 with both Power Word Kill and True Resurrection (with no material component!) as once per days kind of pushes things for me a bit.

Not egregiously so, but a bit much.

And as far as the traps, all four new ones are based around adding an alchemical item into the trap so you basically spew its effects over a 10-ft. radius. Firework Trap, Limning Trap (nonmagical Glitterdust, essentially), Smoke Trap, and Noxious Fumes Trap.

You do realize it takes someone to go out their way to make a level 1 character, role play properly, and then take it all the way to 15 for this to even happen right? This is only an issue if the GM actually enjoys running games with min-maxers or lets min-maxers practically run his game for him.


Alexander Augunas wrote:
zergtitan wrote:
What are the new grit feats?

In addition to the one I already mentioned above (Gun Twirling), there's also a new grit feat that gives you a new way to regain grit: by lying to your enemies! Whenever you successfully lie to someone using the Bluff skill, you regain a point of grit. It doesn't work on allies or on creatures with less than half your Hit Dice, but its pretty neat!

The other grit feat is called Named Bullet, which allows you to scribe a foe's name onto a bullet you create with Gunsmithing, granting the bullet the bane property against that foe. Crafting the bullet costs 1 grit and lowers your maximum pool by 1 point until you use the bullet.

Hm I coulda swore I saw something just like Named Bullet in one of the 3rd party Gunslinger products I have seen.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

I find the idea of someone wanting to find balance between good and evil irritating and highly implausible. Why would someone think this way? If they believe that them creating balance is good, wouldn't they see themselves as good and imbalance as evil? A balance between law and chaos make a bit more sense, but why does balance have to involve evil? Why can't there be a balance between good and good? Screw evil!


I know that Named Bullet is a spell... I think it was in Ultimate Combat.


Axial wrote:
I find the idea of someone wanting to find balance between good and evil irritating and highly implausible. Why would someone think this way? If they believe that them creating balance is good, wouldn't they see themselves as good and imbalance as evil? A balance between law and chaos make a bit more sense, but why does balance have to involve evil? Why can't there be a balance between good and good? Screw evil!

If we define 'good' as 'that which helps others' and 'evil' as 'that which harms others', then it can be seen that a balance between them is sadly necessary. It is impossible for any living thing to long survive without either the use of supernatural forces or without killing other life forms and then eating them -- this is the classic example of a necessary evil. Likewise, it can be argued that helping another, too much and too often, is undesirable in that it leaves the helped individual unable to help themselves. Thus an excess of good can be seen as every bit as undesirable as an excess of evil, and seeking a balance between them, neither helping others too often nor seeking to harm others unnecessarily, becomes an understandable perspective.


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But "evil" in a D&D cosmology isn't (just) that. It's things like Asmodeus, who loathes free will and wants to enslave every sentient being in the universe to punish us all for eternity because we have the temerity to want to make decisions for ourselves. It's daemons who want to devour all souls to deny every living being their afterlife, because they're angry at everything. It's demons who want to bully, oppress, and corrupt everything for no reason except their own fleeting pleasure.

Balance with that? Screw that.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Axial wrote:
I find the idea of someone wanting to find balance between good and evil irritating and highly implausible. Why would someone think this way? If they believe that them creating balance is good, wouldn't they see themselves as good and imbalance as evil? A balance between law and chaos make a bit more sense, but why does balance have to involve evil? Why can't there be a balance between good and good? Screw evil!

That's been a trope of D&D for a long time...I remember it coming up in Dragonlance fiction. I think the idea is that "too much" good ends up being like the Spanish Inquisition. But I agree with you that it's pretty silly.


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Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:
But "evil" in a D&D cosmology isn't (just) that.

Yes, it is. Evil is that which wishes to harm. Good is that which wishes to help. Neutrality is that which recognizes that too much help is just as bad as any harm, and so strives to keep the two in balance.

It is very simple.


Anyone ever seen or read "Trigun"? A manga/anime series? It talks about this very balance. The main villain poses a question when the main character sees a butterfly trapped in a spider web.

"Go ahead and save the butterfly, but now you just killed the spider because it has no food to eat. Let the spider live, but now the butterfly dies."

That's a paraphrase, but you get the point. A neutral character would be the one to make sure all the spiders don't die or that all the butterflies won't die. Now which spider and which butterfly lives, that is an interesting topic for those espousing to keep the balance.

If you want to take it into the modern world, there are people who specialize in maximizing the "compromise" between parties. I would consider these people True Neutral or Lawful Neutral in a sense because they assure both parties are not wiping the other out, but agreeing to take some good with the bad in order to keep the balance of "peace".

If anything, neutrality is a wonderful alignment for deep roleplay. Only people who are used to thinking in black&white terms fail to understand its concepts.

Shadow Lodge

Ehh I think it has more to do with the way the Aeons see the multiverse, that it is this giant ecology in which ALL alignments have their place and merit to exist within and keep the thing moving. That being said though I think the concept is meant to be something that seems silly and beyond to mortals and even most outsiders since they are the ones who feel it more intimately and aren't able to view the whole thing from a cosmic level like the Aeons can.


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Wolfwaker wrote:
Axial wrote:
I find the idea of someone wanting to find balance between good and evil irritating and highly implausible. Why would someone think this way? If they believe that them creating balance is good, wouldn't they see themselves as good and imbalance as evil? A balance between law and chaos make a bit more sense, but why does balance have to involve evil? Why can't there be a balance between good and good? Screw evil!

That's been a trope of D&D for a long time...I remember it coming up in Dragonlance fiction. I think the idea is that "too much" good ends up being like the Spanish Inquisition. But I agree with you that it's pretty silly.

It is silly. Something like the Spanish Inquisition is "too good"... it's evil!

Dark Archive

Because of the title, I imagined Sajan would be on the cover in Crane stance.

'Cause, yanno, balance.


That's sort of taken care of on one of the inside illustrations.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Axial wrote:
Wolfwaker wrote:
Axial wrote:
I find the idea of someone wanting to find balance between good and evil irritating and highly implausible. Why would someone think this way? If they believe that them creating balance is good, wouldn't they see themselves as good and imbalance as evil? A balance between law and chaos make a bit more sense, but why does balance have to involve evil? Why can't there be a balance between good and good? Screw evil!

That's been a trope of D&D for a long time...I remember it coming up in Dragonlance fiction. I think the idea is that "too much" good ends up being like the Spanish Inquisition. But I agree with you that it's pretty silly.

It is silly. Something like the Spanish Inquisition is "too good"... it's evil!

Yeah, gotta say, when I think Spanish Inquisition and horrible things like it, the last thing that comes to mind is "there's too much good there".

The only way stuff like that and the Dragonlance Kingpriest stuff could be read as examples of "too good" is if good and evil don't mean what they're defined as.


The Kingpriest represented an unopposed good "losing direction" and corrupting into something definitely not good. Without a real and recognizable evil to oppose, it started hunting for something, anything to fill that gap. And so Good became "good."

The kingpriest also did something really specific to trigger the Cataclysm, but I haven't read those novels in over a decade.

I'd expect a neutral who seeks balance between good and evil is one who holds both in contempt.


Mikaze wrote:
Yeah, gotta say, when I think Spanish Inquisition and horrible things like it, the last thing that comes to mind is "there's too much good there".

The Spanish Inquisition, and other things like it, are what happens when Lawful Good goes so far off the rails it wraps back around into Chaotic Evil ;P

Shadow Lodge

Blitterbug wrote:
Mikaze wrote:
Yeah, gotta say, when I think Spanish Inquisition and horrible things like it, the last thing that comes to mind is "there's too much good there".
The Spanish Inquisition, and other things like it, are what happens when Lawful Good goes so far off the rails it wraps back around into Chaotic Evil ;P

I think The Spanish Inquisition is what happens when an LG organization realizes that it can be LN and takes it way too far do in the end you have few LG, a lot of LN, and some LE that either don't realize they have fallen that far or excuse it away. Hell some might have even switched sides by that point to other gods by that point without realizing it.

Shadow Lodge

In other news, WOOO! My copy is inbound! Now time to see what everyone has been talking about and I get to do it on my new smart phone. XD


Zhangar wrote:

The Kingpriest represented an unopposed good "losing direction" and corrupting into something definitely not good. Without a real and recognizable evil to oppose, it started hunting for something, anything to fill that gap. And so Good became "good."

The kingpriest also did something really specific to trigger the Cataclysm, but I haven't read those novels in over a decade.

I'd expect a neutral who seeks balance between good and evil is one who holds both in contempt.

Besides a certain amount of ethnic cleansing and slavery? He ask in hubris what Huma asked for in humility.

Basically he demanded the divine power to scourge the world of evil. Going so far as to claim himself to be so valuable to Paladine that loosing him would be like the god loosing his left arm. Then there is the fact that the Kingpriest's view of what was evil had become skewed at that point. He had declared a number of races evil and to be wiped out, not just the traditional always CE races either as well as declaring all faith in other gods except Paladine to be evil. Even Mishakel, Paladine's wife, got the treatment if I recall correctly.

Throw on top of that a hefty dose of supposedly faithful clerics of paladine actually give faith and worship to the Kingpriest and you have a recipe for a boatload of angry gods.

Suffice it to say, the kingpriest had gotten little out of hand.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Mind you, I don't think the morality of the "good" gods in Dragonlance bears up under close examination either...


Axial wrote:
I find the idea of someone wanting to find balance between good and evil irritating and highly implausible. Why would someone think this way? If they believe that them creating balance is good, wouldn't they see themselves as good and imbalance as evil? A balance between law and chaos make a bit more sense, but why does balance have to involve evil? Why can't there be a balance between good and good? Screw evil!

Neutral characters are by far the norm at our table...in fact I can't think of a character that wasnt neutral along at least one axis.

But we have never had anyone take the approach of "trying" to act in balance between good and evil.

The reality is that most people in the world are neutral...especially these days.
Think about it...how many LG people do you know ?
How about LE ?

Neutral alignments are easily the most "real" allignments, and as a result are the most easily grasped by the greater number of people.

I can't imagine playing a LG Paladine...because what would be expected of my character would seem foolish....and probably shallow, to me on a personal level.


Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:
Mind you, I don't think the morality of the "good" gods in Dragonlance bears up under close examination either...

In brief, how so?


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In response to the Kingpriest's madness, the gods send a series of extremely frightening but utterly vague omens which the Kingpriest interprets in his favor; they then grant a fallen Solamnic Knight the only possibility of swaying the KP, but some random evil elves tempt him to fall further instead and he becomes a certain famous death knight; finally the gods rapture all their faithful clerics away and drop several asteroids on the planet, ensuring misery and horror for everyone whether or not they had anything to do with the KP's corruption and simultaneously depriving everyone of the divine magic and spiritual leaders that would have been really really handy at the time, causing the people of Krynn to - rightly, in my opinion - feel rather cheesed off at the gods.

All of this is in response to the actions of one highly placed paranoid lunatic, who is manipulating one of the 21 religions to oppress pretty much all the others.

I'm... not seeing any good, there.

Webstore Gninja Minion

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Probably best to take the discussion about Dragonlance & the Kingpriest to a separate thread, folks. :D

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

Axial wrote:
I find the idea of someone wanting to find balance between good and evil irritating and highly implausible. Why would someone think this way? If they believe that them creating balance is good, wouldn't they see themselves as good and imbalance as evil?

By that logic, no one would want to be Evil.

Every alignment thinks it is the 'best' alignment (thinking of themselves as the 'good' that is the opposite of 'bad', not the 'Good' that is the opposite of 'Evil').

Good thinks Evil is selfish and petty.
Evil thinks Good is naive and a way of penalizing the strong.

Law thinks Chaos is random and capricious.
Chaos thinks Law is predictable and boring.

Neutral thinks ALL of these thing are true.


Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:

In response to the Kingpriest's madness, the gods send a series of extremely frightening but utterly vague omens which the Kingpriest interprets in his favor; they then grant a fallen Solamnic Knight the only possibility of swaying the KP, but some random evil elves tempt him to fall further instead and he becomes a certain famous death knight; finally the gods rapture all their faithful clerics away and drop several asteroids on the planet, ensuring misery and horror for everyone whether or not they had anything to do with the KP's corruption and simultaneously depriving everyone of the divine magic and spiritual leaders that would have been really really handy at the time, causing the people of Krynn to - rightly, in my opinion - feel rather cheesed off at the gods.

All of this is in response to the actions of one highly placed paranoid lunatic, who is manipulating one of the 21 religions to oppress pretty much all the others.

I'm... not seeing any good, there.

While I an understand your point I think there are details your missing. All in all agree to disagree and moving on.

Rather interested in those grit feats.


Ross Byers wrote:
Axial wrote:
I find the idea of someone wanting to find balance between good and evil irritating and highly implausible. Why would someone think this way? If they believe that them creating balance is good, wouldn't they see themselves as good and imbalance as evil?

By that logic, no one would want to be Evil.

Every alignment thinks it is the 'best' alignment (thinking of themselves as the 'good' that is the opposite of 'bad', not the 'Good' that is the opposite of 'Evil').

I disagree. Being neutral doesn't necessarily mean you think it's the best alignment. It could, for example, mean you don't have the conviction to do good acts, even though you think that alignment is the ideal.


Is anyone willing to spoil the archetypes?


Kvantum wrote:
The new bloodline isn't an Inevitable one, but it is... Impossible.

Oooh! This sounds pretty awesome! I was actually just thinking about what kind of bloodline would make for a good "Adam Warlock, Quantum Sorcerer" concept, and this might do.


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Tell my wife...I said...hello.

Shadow Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Cthulhudrew wrote:
Kvantum wrote:
The new bloodline isn't an Inevitable one, but it is... Impossible.
Oooh! This sounds pretty awesome! I was actually just thinking about what kind of bloodline would make for a good "Adam Warlock, Quantum Sorcerer" concept, and this might do.

It's awesome! Basically you can see the math that underlays the universe and use it to do what you want. The 1st level ability is basically giving someone a taste of your vision and making them sick and eventually all your other abilities basically let you go "I reject your reality and substitute my own". Like eventually you can go I want to make a bag of tricks and just ignore all the crafting requirements and pop it out or look at a wall and go "you are a floor" and you can just walk up it.

I am so excited to make a cthulhu math sorcerer who can see the under pinning formulas of the universe and just ignore physical laws as humans understand them.

Shadow Lodge

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Skaldi the Tallest wrote:
Is anyone willing to spoil the archetypes?

Yeah dude.

Basically you get 2 true archetypes, 1 new cavalier order, and the new aforementioned bloodline.

The 2 archetypes are the Negotiator Bard and the Survivor Druid.

The Negotiator is basically Phoenix Wright/Johnny Cockran lawyer who can talk himself and the party out of just about anything (or make people believe just about anything). Like you lose inspire courage to give everyone penalties against your social skills and illusion magic as well as appraise checks to cause people to buy or sell items to you at better prices. From their the class kind of snowballs through more ways to lie or change peoples opinions along with giving you some rogue talents to help out there (but none for sneak attacks).

The Survivor is a Druid arch that replaces a bit of your spellcasting and your wildshape with the traps mechanic that the ranger trapper has. I honestly really love this one since you end up with a new take on the druid who is more like a rugged survivalist or hunter who supplaments his powers with druidic magic so you get a druid that feels a little less fantastical but still so cool. Like I'm debating building like an Inuit survivor druid who roams the tundra with his wolf companion trapping game for his tribe. Also you get the launch trap abilities of the trapper ranger.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Man, I can't wait for this one to ship so I can get my PDF!!


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yeah, I'd agree that people can hold themselves to different standards than they hold society...I've had plenty of neutral characters who would generally prefer people in general to be good and lawful just because they would rather have people willing to risk themselves to prevent bad things from happening to them, and because they can acknowledge they appreciate dwelling in a reasonably ordered society...while still not having the necessary personal conviction to strive to that ideal themselves. And I doubt neutrality is the only one...I can imagine a good person on occasion wishing he didn't care so much...and I'm sure plenty of evil people that dwell in evil societies might wish that his neighbors weren't just as cutthroat amoral!

However, I do think that someone who actively seeks balance or neutrality as an ideology almost certainly believes it is the best alignment...just as much as someone who actively seeks what some might term evil...or good...or whatever. There's a distinction between someone who has an alignment because that's their natural inclinations or because they're trying to reach a certain mental personal ideal, and someone who has an alignment because they have a strong ideology where that alignment is the highest good. For a neutral character, perhaps they believe there is a greater cosmic significance to all things being equal and in their place, struggling against each other, and that if good were to finally triumph over evil, the imbalance would destroy reality or alter it so fundamentally that it might be the same thing. Or perhaps they believe that strong convictions only serve to set people at each other's throats, a more alignment-oriented perspective similar to Rahadoum's with deities, and that people need to curb those divisive convictions. That said...personally, 'zealous neutrality' is probably my least favorite kind of neutral.

Back to the book, man, Nethys offering the aeon subdomain really makes me start speculating. I mean, aeons are all bound together via the monad that makes them one with each other and the multiverse itself, and their Extension of All ability allows them to a limited extent to gain access to timeless knowledge filtered through all of existence itself. Meanwhile, we know Nethys found a way to know apparently everything, which drove him mad...furthermore, aeons are said to be at one moment beneficent and in the next utterly devastating...sounds quite a lot like Nethys' proclivities for creation and destruction. It also says that aeons build order out of the Maelstrom...I think I recall that that's where Nethys calls home? And since we know mortals might be able to get a glimpse into the Monad as per the Impossible bloodline...did Nethys tap into the Monad on a full-time basis, perhaps?

Of course, Sivanah offers it too, which is also pretty interesting considering her theme of illusions, reflections, and mystery...we know that aeons are merely reflections of something greater...almost illusions themselves, but illusions real enough to interact with reality...if what we perceive in front of us is the true reality, and not merely the shadow of a greater reality? Does Sivanah see a difference between what we think of as reality and illusions beyond mere degrees of how substantial they are? Aeons may tend to take more after gnostic views (which in turn draws heavily on Greek philosophy), but there's certainly some Buddhist themes you can almost effortlessly incorporate, in my opinion...

Of course, sometimes a subdomain is just a subdomain. Might be reading too much into it. But rampant speculation is fun!

Brief overview of new things:

Spoiler:
Archetypes: Negotiator (bard), Survivor (Druid)
Feats: Crisis of Conscience (Story), Fabulist (Grit), Gun Twirling (Grit), Named Bullet (Grit), Planar Hunter, Practiced Leadership, Summon Neutral Monster
True Neutral Traits: Amiable Blunder (social), Balancer's Banishing (magic), Inexorable Authority (social), No Escape (combat), Unabashed Gall (social), Unpredictable Reactions (combat)
Subdomains: Aeon (Knowledge), Aristocracy (Nobility), Fist (Strength), Flowing (Water), Innuendo (Trickery), Psychopomp (Death, Repose), Solitude (Protection)
Ninja Tricks: Blood Debt, Kamikaze, Redirect Force; Master Trick: Kawarimi
Alchemist Discoveries: Anarchic Bombs, Axiomatic Bombs, Collective Memory, Intuitive Understanding
Arcane Discoveries: Balanced Summoning, Beyond Morality, Creative Destruction, Defensive Feedback, Idealize
Bloodline: Impossible
Cavalier Order: Order of the Scales
Rage Powers: Impelling Disarm, Savage Dirty Trick
Ranger Traps (* modifies the effects of another trap): Firework Trap* (Ex or Su), Limning Trap (Ex or Su), Smoke Trap (Ex or Su), Toxic Fumes Trap* (Ex or Su)
Spells: Antithetical Constraint (bard 4, sorcerer/wizard 4, witch 4), Arbitrament (cleric 7, inquisitor 6), Ardor's Onslaught (cleric 4, inquisitor 4), Counterbalancing Aura (cleric 8), Dispel Balance (cleric 5, druid 5, inquisitor 5), Explosion of Rot (druid 4), Recentering Drone (cleric 2, druid 2)
Mercurial Magic Items: Cloak of Amoral Refraction (54,200 gp, shoulders), Dimensional Acid (450 gp (basic), 1,750 gp (corrosive), 1,000 gp (jagged), 2,700 gp (living), none), Eye of Brokerage (16,550 gp, neck), Gauntlets of the Unchained (13,200 gp, hands), Judicial Hammer (5,220 gp, none), Liar's Robe (4,180 gp, body), Slaver's Cane (23,305 gp, none), Traitorous Blaster (7,050 gp, none)
Prestige Class: Envoy of Balance
Template: Counterpoised Creature (+0 or +1)

Overall thoughts: Unabashed Gall is hilarious. I'm not sure how useful it is, but it's hilarious.

The new subdomains are mostly pretty interesting even without some of the fuel for thought.

The new ninja tricks seem a bit odd, since they seem oriented around taking damage, and it seems like most ninjas would prefer to avoid taking damage in the first place...Redirect Force almost comes across as more appropriate for a barbarian rage power, even. Kawarimi is pretty amusing, though...I just wish it was more than once a day, though I suppose that if it was, it might be too powerful.

The negotiator bard archetype is pretty interesting as a dedicated face, though I can imagine some DMs might be leery of potential abuse with the Appraise manipulation if their players tend to abuse mechanics.

The new grit feats are all a lot of fun, in my opinion...fabulist sounds great for a mysterious stranger...all the more mysterious because he keeps changing his history every time he tells it! Gun twirling seems fun, and named bullet is flavorful as hell...perfect for a Calistrian gunslinger, I imagine. "I've been saving a bullet with your name on it...punk."

The new alchemist discoveries, I like collective memory and intuitive understanding. Very flavorful, especially for a psychonaut or similarly flavored alchemist.

Arcane discoveries are a bit odd, and it's a bit problematic that one of them has the same name as a mythic power, in my opinion. Idealize seems quite potent, though, and balanced summoning definitely leads to some interesting mental images...

The Impossible sorcerer bloodline is pretty awesome, in my opinion. And it doesn't nail itself down to flavor, though frankly both suggestions (axiomite godmind and monad of the aeons) are full of possibilities. Spontaneous Generation gives them a reasonable chance of matching a wizard's crafting ability, along with their bonus feats, and the capstone is full of countless possibilities.

Barbarian rage powers...impelling disarm is pretty damn amusing. I have a mental image of a barbarian slamming a weapon out of someone's hands and kicking it right back into their face. Savage dirty trick looks pretty nice...especially combined with the dirty trick master feat from Bastards of Golarion.

Of the new spells, I'm a bit amused that in a book dedicated to neutral characters, a fair number of them are actually designed to be used against neutral characters...Ardor's Onslaught is the anti-neutral version of Chaos Hammer/Holy Smite/Order's Wrath/Unholy Blight, Counterbalancing Aura is the anti-neutral version of Cloak of Chaos/Holy Aura/Shield of Law/Unholy Aura, and Dispel Balance the anti-neutral version of Dispel Chaos/Evil/Good/Law. Because no one likes a fence straddler? We do have Arbitrament, though, the neutral version of Blasphemy/Dictum/Holy Word/Word of Chaos. Antithetical Constraint seems fairly powerful, though ironically, it's far less useful if you're true neutral, since unlike other alignments, who can now only be hit by one alignment, they can still be hit by four of them. Explosion of rot seems like a reasonabl blast spell for a druid, too...not as good as fireball, admittedly, but nice. I am a little disappointed that we didn't get some aspect spells to go along with angelic aspect...inevitable aspect would have been pretty awesome.

Summon Neutral Monster looks like fun, though I haven't gone over it in detail...I do like shae, though. And chaos beasts could be quite annoying with their curse...counterpoised creature is also an interesting template.

That said...now I'm really looking forward to Champions of Corruption, and not just because I'm in an evil game! Also vaguely imagining a mythic summoner or conjurer who takes Beyond Morality (the mythic version, not the arcane discovery) and Summon Good Monster, Summon Neutral Monster, and the hopefully upcoming Summon Evil Monster...


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

What does the Practiced Leadership feat do?

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

Mechalibur wrote:
Being neutral doesn't necessarily mean you think it's the best alignment. It could, for example, mean you don't have the conviction to do good acts, even though you think that alignment is the ideal.

I agree, actually. I was referring to the neutral embraced by druids, philosophers, and others who actually champion balance (i.e. those referred to in the title of this book.)

Animals, commoners, and a great many things are neutral because they lack strong convictions, not because their strong conviction is that moderation is the best course.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
David knott 242 wrote:
What does the Practiced Leadership feat do?

Well, you need to have Leadership and have membership in the same organization as your cohort; as long as you and your cohort maintain membership in good standing within the same organization, the cohort gains a +4 morale bonus on Will saves against enchantment spells and effects, and your cohort as treated as thought they possessed the same teamwork feats you possess for figuring out whether you (but not your cohort) receive bonuses from the feat. Cohort still needs the actual teamwork feat to receive bonuses themselves.

Additionally, they list various bonuses for belonging to specific organizations (specifically, Free Captains, Green Faith, Hellknights, Pathfinder Society, and Prophets of Kalistrade) and having Leadership or Practiced Leadership. For example, if you have Leadership and are a Green Faith follower, you do not take a Leadership score penalty for having an animal companion, and if you have Practiced Leadership, your cohort can use speak with animals at-will as a spell-like ability (caster level 1st or equal to cohort's caster level, whichever is higher).

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