Eldritch Scoundrel Build


Advice


Alright folks, the Eldritch Scoundrel is still relatively new but I think it makes for an upgrade over the normal Core or Unchained Rogue.

I'm working on converting an existing Unchained Rogue into an Eldritch Scoundrel, but I'm not sure how to build it.

I know I still want to focus on sneak attacking with weapons and not spells (although if an easy sneak attack is available with a spell I will take it, like surprise round Acid Splash).

I still would like to TWF, and my character already had TWF, ITWF, Combat Expertise, Two Weapon Feint and Improved Two Weapon Feint.

I picked up the ninja Vanishing Trick for swift action invisibility and plan to pick up Invisible Blade when available.

How would you build the most effective Eldritch Scoundrel you can. Please include spells that help make the build particularly effective (like Heroism and such) just so I don't overlook it.


Mage Armor and Mirror Image for defense. Rod(s) of Extend will be important, because as any guish build, this will be heavily rely on self-buffs.

I wonder whether pure Eldritch Scoundrel is better than Arcane Trickster. The former is now the best entry for the latter, especially with Accomplished Sneak Attacker.

If you go very far on levels, consider Dimensional Agility feat chain up to Dimensional Savant, when you can flank with yourself. Also combines very well with Outflank. (sample progression: lvl 9 ITWF, lvl 11 Agility, lvl 12 Assault (via Rogue Talent: Feat), lvl 13 Dervish, lvl 15 Savant)


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Ellioti wrote:

Mage Armor and Mirror Image for defense.

I wonder whether pure Eldritch Scoundrel is better than Arcane Trickster. The former is now the best entry for the latter, especially with Accomplished Sneak Attacker.

They're meant for two different character types. Eldritch Scoundrel is the Rogue-with-spells, Arcane Trickster is the Wizard-with-sneak-attack. Going Eldritch Scoundrel into Arcane Trickster seems to have the worst of both, with the former having only sixth level spells and the latter having poor BAB.


I think Arcane Trickster from Eldritch Scoundrel is better if you want to focus on Sneak Attack using spells. Since they're mostly touch attacks the poor BAB from AT doesn't matter as much.

If you want to sneak attack with weapons, then I wouldn't take any levels of Arcane Trickster. It just depends on what you want your focus to be.

I will obviously use mage armor for AC. I have shield, and mirror image too, but I worry about those spells being only minutes per levels means I might need to cast them for every combat, and the Eldritch Scoundrel doesn't have that many spell slots so I will need to focus on what is most effective in terms of duration and rounds of buffing needed (either before combat or during) to get up to effectiveness.

There are a lot of competing spells for action economy, such as Sense Vitals. It gives back the missing Sneak Attack progression. But casting it comes at the expense of casting something else. Whether it be Greater Invisibility or another spell.

My character is currently 10th level and we are using Automatic Bonus Progression, just as FYIs for everyone.


Would it be worth it to drop Two Weapon Feint, Improved Two Weapon Feint to pick up the magus variant multiclass with prescient strike?


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I assume the Feint feats are in order to get melee Sneak Attack, which requires an investment in Bluff skill as well.

If it weren't for the Automatic Bonus Progression, I would suggest Greater Magic Weapon plus a 3rd level Pearl of Power. The cost of two +2 weapons would be 16K, Pearl of Power for 3rd level spells is only 9K. I'm not really familiar with Automatic Bonus Progression, but as I understand it getting the magic weapons, cloaks, etc are less important.

How are you intending to spend your Rogue Talents? That would tell us a lot about what to concentrate on.

I frequently make sure that I have See Invisibility, Minor Image or better, and Darkvision. You didn't say what race your character was, assuming it doesn't have Darkvision you want the spell just to say that you know what it is like seeing with it.

If you plan to handle traps, Brass Spider (ACG) can be a life-saver.

It might make sense to take Mnemonic Enhancer as a spell. It isn't worth it for most spell casters because they are looking to use their better spell slots for offense. You may find the defensive and utility spells of more value.


For those of you who believe the Eldritch Scoundrel into Arcane Tirckster to be a poor decision I politely disagree. Here is a simple, yet effective build that, for the first 3 levels, must rely on utility spells that a normal sorcerer and is otherwise mediocre. However, upon reaching level 4 this build becomes an incredibly viable build that takes advantage of the spell Fiery Shuriken and the Vanishing Trick of the ninja to gain competent damage output. I maintain that this is a viable way to go from Eldritch Scoundrel into Arcane Trickster seemlessly.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-PZfv5-lscrQNenjl-Y_75RTZ70vQwPArsx1KEi HukM/edit?usp=docslist_api


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Claxon wrote:
Would it be worth it to drop Two Weapon Feint, Improved Two Weapon Feint to pick up the magus variant multiclass with prescient strike?

Potentially? I'm a big fan of Prescient Strike but I think Imp TWFeint is just better, really? Doesn't have a resource cost and you don't need to hit. I suppose you need to pass that Bluff check, though...

You also pick up Spellstrike going VMC Magus, which has a varying amount of usage for you. The arcane pool is somewhat small so I think it comes down to how often per day you will be using Feint/Prescient Attack. If it is even close to hitting that pool size, I would trade that first attack for the feint and not VMC.


Per RAW, I don't thank you can acquire invisible blade. The eldritch scoundrel version of rogue talents allows for ninja tricks and rogue talents at lower levels, but only calls out advanced talents at higher level. Master tricks are not mentioned. Has there been any word from developers on this?

ETA: DISREGARD. I forgot that gaining master tricks has its own advanced talent counterpart. Per the setup of the eldritch scoundrel, you'll only be able to take one though. That said, it would take a very compelling argument to choose something other than invisible blade. :-)


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Backlash3906 wrote:

Per RAW, I don't thank you can acquire invisible blade. The eldritch scoundrel version of rogue talents allows for ninja tricks and rogue talents at lower levels, but only calls out advanced talents at higher level. Master tricks are not mentioned. Has there been any word from developers on this?

ETA: DISREGARD. I forgot that gaining master tricks has its own advanced talent counterpart. Per the setup of the eldritch scoundrel, you'll only be able to take one though. That said, it would take a very compelling argument to choose something other than invisible blade. :-)

I believe Unchained Rogue does not have access to Master Tricks, unfortunately.

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One cool thing is that an Unchained Eldritch Scoundrel can get into Arcane Trickster at 5th level; just need to make your 3rd level feat "Accomplished Sneak Attacker" at 4th level, if you put in the skill points correctly, you can start 5th level as a Trickster, the earliest legal way to get into any prestige class.


BretI wrote:

I assume the Feint feats are in order to get melee Sneak Attack, which requires an investment in Bluff skill as well.

If it weren't for the Automatic Bonus Progression, I would suggest Greater Magic Weapon plus a 3rd level Pearl of Power. The cost of two +2 weapons would be 16K, Pearl of Power for 3rd level spells is only 9K. I'm not really familiar with Automatic Bonus Progression, but as I understand it getting the magic weapons, cloaks, etc are less important.

How are you intending to spend your Rogue Talents? That would tell us a lot about what to concentrate on.

I frequently make sure that I have See Invisibility, Minor Image or better, and Darkvision. You didn't say what race your character was, assuming it doesn't have Darkvision you want the spell just to say that you know what it is like seeing with it.

If you plan to handle traps, Brass Spider (ACG) can be a life-saver.

It might make sense to take Mnemonic Enhancer as a spell. It isn't worth it for most spell casters because they are looking to use their better spell slots for offense. You may find the defensive and utility spells of more value.

Feint feats are for melee sneak attack, which means yes I've invested skill points in bluff.

Automatic Bonus progression grants free weapon enhancement, armor enhancement (including on clothes), free natural armor enhancement, free ring of protection, cloak of resistance, and ability (physical & mental) enhancement bonuses but WBL is reduced by half. I could potentially use the spell Greater Magic weapon at certain levels to improve my enhancement on my weapon. It would be +2 at level 8 instead of +1 on each weapon I cast it on, but then I'm spending two spell slots or buying a pearl of power.

Rogue talents are currently Weapon Focus(daggers), Vanishing Trick, and Double Debilitation.


Xethik wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Would it be worth it to drop Two Weapon Feint, Improved Two Weapon Feint to pick up the magus variant multiclass with prescient strike?

Potentially? I'm a big fan of Prescient Strike but I think Imp TWFeint is just better, really? Doesn't have a resource cost and you don't need to hit. I suppose you need to pass that Bluff check, though...

You also pick up Spellstrike going VMC Magus, which has a varying amount of usage for you. The arcane pool is somewhat small so I think it comes down to how often per day you will be using Feint/Prescient Attack. If it is even close to hitting that pool size, I would trade that first attack for the feint and not VMC.

I already have the bluff investment and a mask of stony demeanor, and a headband of ninjitsu. I think I'll stick with Improved Two Weapon Feint and not worry about Magus VMC. It's a neat idea, but I don't think it will have the lasting power do to small arcane pool size.


Xethik wrote:
Backlash3906 wrote:

Per RAW, I don't thank you can acquire invisible blade. The eldritch scoundrel version of rogue talents allows for ninja tricks and rogue talents at lower levels, but only calls out advanced talents at higher level. Master tricks are not mentioned. Has there been any word from developers on this?

ETA: DISREGARD. I forgot that gaining master tricks has its own advanced talent counterpart. Per the setup of the eldritch scoundrel, you'll only be able to take one though. That said, it would take a very compelling argument to choose something other than invisible blade. :-)

I believe Unchained Rogue does not have access to Master Tricks, unfortunately.

Damn, you appear to be right.

It's still worthwhile to pick up Vanishing Trick as it's a swift action that can be powered by first level spell slots (like casting the spell) but you get better action economy. I think it's probably worth spending the rogue talent on it.

However, everything in the build is subject to change if someone presents a strong method of doing the generally desired objective of making a rogue who uses weapons to sneak attack and has magic to help accomplish that goal. Everything else is pretty open to change.

Liberty's Edge

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Black Powder Chocobo wrote:
One cool thing is that an Unchained Eldritch Scoundrel can get into Arcane Trickster at 5th level; just need to make your 3rd level feat "Accomplished Sneak Attacker" at 4th level, if you put in the skill points correctly, you can start 5th level as a Trickster, the earliest legal way to get into any prestige class.

You can also do, and indeed are better off doing, this as a Rogue 1/Wizard 3/Arcane Trickster X.

Combining Eldritch Scoundrel and Arcane Trickster just isn't that good an idea.

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SyrioForel wrote:
However, upon reaching level 4 this build becomes an incredibly viable build that takes advantage of the spell Fiery Shuriken and the Vanishing Trick of the ninja to gain competent damage output.

How's that work, though? I think you only get sneak attack dice on the first shuriken.


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Claxon wrote:
However, everything in the build is subject to change if someone presents a strong method of doing the generally desired objective of making a rogue who uses weapons to sneak attack and has magic to help accomplish that goal. Everything else is pretty open to change.

There is the obvious Arcane Strike to give all your weapons +3 damage at 10th level in exchange for a swift action.


BretI wrote:
Claxon wrote:
However, everything in the build is subject to change if someone presents a strong method of doing the generally desired objective of making a rogue who uses weapons to sneak attack and has magic to help accomplish that goal. Everything else is pretty open to change.
There is the obvious Arcane Strike to give all your weapons +3 damage at 10th level in exchange for a swift action.

I had planned to pick that up eventually. TWF, ITWF, TWFeint, and IWTFeint really eat up a lot of feats.

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BretI wrote:
There is the obvious Arcane Strike to give all your weapons +3 damage at 10th level in exchange for a swift action.

You probably won't have a lot of swift actions left at level 10. For example, vanishing trick, several other rogue talents, and numerous items. AS doesn't strike me as something you can use consistently.


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Claxon wrote:
Xethik wrote:
Backlash3906 wrote:

Per RAW, I don't thank you can acquire invisible blade. The eldritch scoundrel version of rogue talents allows for ninja tricks and rogue talents at lower levels, but only calls out advanced talents at higher level. Master tricks are not mentioned. Has there been any word from developers on this?

ETA: DISREGARD. I forgot that gaining master tricks has its own advanced talent counterpart. Per the setup of the eldritch scoundrel, you'll only be able to take one though. That said, it would take a very compelling argument to choose something other than invisible blade. :-)

I believe Unchained Rogue does not have access to Master Tricks, unfortunately.

Damn, you appear to be right.

It's still worthwhile to pick up Vanishing Trick as it's a swift action that can be powered by first level spell slots (like casting the spell) but you get better action economy. I think it's probably worth spending the rogue talent on it.

However, everything in the build is subject to change if someone presents a strong method of doing the generally desired objective of making a rogue who uses weapons to sneak attack and has magic to help accomplish that goal. Everything else is pretty open to change.

I think this is the way to do it. Pretty much just keep up Sense Vitals and whatnot.

Honestly, my feeling on Unchained Rogue not getting Master Tricks (and someone can correct me if I am wrong) is that the only reason it does not get it is due to errata for Ultimate Combat coming out after. The Master Trick rogue talent came out in the second errata pass for Ultimate Combat. Otherwise, I would imagine Unchained would have the trick on their list.

I think it would be reasonable for a DM to allow it, though it is particularly powerful in this scenario.

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Deadmanwalking wrote:
Black Powder Chocobo wrote:
One cool thing is that an Unchained Eldritch Scoundrel can get into Arcane Trickster at 5th level; just need to make your 3rd level feat "Accomplished Sneak Attacker" at 4th level, if you put in the skill points correctly, you can start 5th level as a Trickster, the earliest legal way to get into any prestige class.

You can also do, and indeed are better off doing, this as a Rogue 1/Wizard 3/Arcane Trickster X.

Combining Eldritch Scoundrel and Arcane Trickster just isn't that good an idea.

Spellcasting-wise, yes. Getting those wizard spells is powerful.

However, there is a bit of novelty being able to get into a prestige class like that without multiclassing. There's also the fact that for Arcane Tricksters who want more melee options, getting Dex to Damage and Debilitating Strike for the sneak attacks is pretty cool. I know the power play would be to not do that and go with the route you suggested, but I still believe you could be quiet effective with a sole Unchained Eldritch Scoundrel to Arcane Trickster.

Caveat: Not for PFS while Unchained Rogues are banned from this :P


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Black Powder Chocobo wrote:
One cool thing is that an Unchained Eldritch Scoundrel can get into Arcane Trickster at 5th level; just need to make your 3rd level feat "Accomplished Sneak Attacker" at 4th level, if you put in the skill points correctly, you can start 5th level as a Trickster, the earliest legal way to get into any prestige class.

You can also do, and indeed are better off doing, this as a Rogue 1/Wizard 3/Arcane Trickster X.

Combining Eldritch Scoundrel and Arcane Trickster just isn't that good an idea.

Personally I like the Brawler for that +1 BaB, but Unchained Rogues and decent archetypes still make good old Rogue not a bad pick.

Then again, personally the fact you can do this makes me wonder what the point of Eldritch Scoundrel is? If Arcane Trickster = Best Eldritch Scoundrel and Best Arcane Trickster = Sneak Attack 1/Wizard 3 then ???

Liberty's Edge

The Mortonator wrote:
Personally I like the Brawler for that +1 BaB, but Unchained Rogues and decent archetypes still make good old Rogue not a bad pick.

That's valid. Snakebite Striker's a good call for more melee Arcane Trickster builds.

The Mortonator wrote:
Then again, personally the fact you can do this makes me wonder what the point of Eldritch Scoundrel is? If Arcane Trickster = Best Eldritch Scoundrel and Best Arcane Trickster = Sneak Attack 1/Wizard 3 then ???

Arcane Trickster is not the best Eldritch Scoundrel. Arcane Trickster is a Wizard with Sneak Attack. Eldritch Scoundrel (when done with Unchained Rogue) is a mid BAB melee class with excellent utility via 6-level casting and Ninja Tricks.

So, this whole point doesn't really apply IMO.


Deadmanwalking wrote:

Arcane Trickster is not the best Eldritch Scoundrel. Arcane Trickster is a Wizard with Sneak Attack. Eldritch Scoundrel (when done with Unchained Rogue) is a mid BAB melee class with excellent utility via 6-level casting and Ninja Tricks.

So, this whole point doesn't really apply IMO.

Eeeh, I dunno. I remain unconvinced.

I suppose what it comes down to is that it's just not enough melee for me to be sold on it's effectiveness as melee. No Magus style light armor, d8, and below 3/4th sneak attack scares me on a 3/4th BaB class. But that's me, lover of full sneak attack. <3 sneak attack.

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The Mortonator wrote:
I suppose what it comes down to is that it's just not enough melee for me to be sold on it's effectiveness as melee. No Magus style light armor, d8, and below 3/4th sneak attack scares me on a 3/4th BaB class. But that's me, lover of full sneak attack. <3 sneak attack.

So basically, Snakebite Brawler 1 with Acc Sneak Attacker / Magus 4 / Arcane Trickster? That has almost full sneak attack progression, and light armor and spell combat (effectively TWF for free).


Kurald Galain wrote:
The Mortonator wrote:
I suppose what it comes down to is that it's just not enough melee for me to be sold on it's effectiveness as melee. No Magus style light armor, d8, and below 3/4th sneak attack scares me on a 3/4th BaB class. But that's me, lover of full sneak attack. <3 sneak attack.
So basically, Snakebite Brawler 1 with Acc Sneak Attacker / Magus 4 / Arcane Trickster? That has almost full sneak attack progression, and light armor and spell combat (effectively TWF for free).

Honestly, I like Wizard more for the better spell list over melee ability, but I can see myself being swayed to play a straight Magus and then dipping a level in Brawler before going Arcane Trickster. Suppose it depends on level the campaign is playing towards. I do like that that build gives decent BaB at the front.

Or, ya know, just play a Magus cause it's a freaking Magus. :p


I can't find any way in which this archetype is better than an Arcane Trickster... Arcane Trickster gets better spell progression and better sneak attack and more flexibility.

The archetype gives up way to much trying to preserve "rogue".


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hiiamtom wrote:

I can't find any way in which this archetype is better than an Arcane Trickster... Arcane Trickster gets better spell progression and better sneak attack and more flexibility.

The archetype gives up way to much trying to preserve "rogue".

Start time, and more access to rogue talents.

Better BAB, and spontaneous invisibility as a swift action first level spell.


Eldritch Scoundrel can still participate in melee unlike a Arcane Trickster.

Thanks the FAQ that sneak attack damage only applies once per spell, the better Sneak Attack die progression of the trickster doesn't mean much since it will only get one Sneak Attack per round at most.


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master_marshmallow and Claxon are thinking like I am on this hiiamtom. When games often don't see higher levels, you have to take the starting levels into consideration. Add in actual melee ability, more /rogue-ninja talents, FCB's and no multi-sneak attack spells and I'd take it every time over Trickster. Having better spells in late game and more sneak attack pales when compared to low level versatility and actually being a casting rogue out of the gate. Lets face it, until you get into the PrC you're a caster with a splash of rogue for 1/4th of the game.


I guess I just feel more rogue-like with more spells and less rogue in this case.


graystone wrote:
master_marshmallow and Claxon are thinking like I am on this hiiamtom. When games often don't see higher levels, you have to take the starting levels into consideration. Add in actual melee ability, more /rogue-ninja talents, FCB's and no multi-sneak attack spells and I'd take it every time over Trickster. Having better spells in late game and more sneak attack pales when compared to low level versatility and actually being a casting rogue out of the gate. Lets face it, until you get into the PrC you're a caster with a splash of rogue for 1/4th of the game.

I agree. Comparing them is a little like comparing an Eldritch Knight to a Magus.


hiiamtom wrote:
I guess I just feel more rogue-like with more spells and less rogue in this case.

How can you feel more rogue at rogue 1/ wizard 3 than a rogue 4? I can't help scratching my head on that. I just don't understand how more spells or sneak attack could feel more roguish. More arcane or deadly maybe?

Of course you are free to feel how you wish. I'm just a bit baffled by the comment.


My skills are not hurting much, I have around the same AC, but I have a bigger bag of tricks. In combat I can do somewhat better with an Eldritch Scoundrel, but I'd be doing a hell of a lot worse than with, say, an Alchemist where I could be more combat focus and not lose a lot.

At least being a full caster with a rogue-like build will give me a larger bag of rogue tricks to scout or steal or lie and cheat. I would want to focus on casting due to DCs anyways. Then again the last roguish character I played was an oracle.


It sounds like your version of a rogue is just a wizard who uses spells to do roguish things.

I don't care for that personally, but to each their own.


hiiamtom wrote:
but I have a bigger bag of tricks.

This is where I disagree with you. You have more spells but that doesn't directly translate into more tricks. This especially true at lower levels where the spell gap is tiny and the lack of rogue talents hurts a lot. Swift action ninja abilities fill a "bag of tricks" quite nicely compared to a hand full of extra spells you pick a head of time.

I'm not understanding how a "focus on casting" = "rogue-like". You can do some things like a rogue can but you don't do them like a rogue...


Well a rogue is a trope before a class, so it's about how the character uses their skills not the mechanics themselves.


Rogues as a trope have long been established as not particularly adept at magic, but rely on skill and cunning.

Honestly, the Eldritch Scoundrel (while better mechanically) feels less like a rogue to me than other rogues. You're version is just a wizard who does less reputable things.

I feel like your saying, "The ends justify the means, as long as the character can detect traps and break into things that's all that matters".

And that's cool for you, but I think many other players would disagree.


If by "long been established" you mean in D&D specifically then you are correct.

I would go as far as saying trickster magic users have been around longer than the rogue of skill and stabbing.

Liberty's Edge

hiiamtom wrote:

I can't find any way in which this archetype is better than an Arcane Trickster... Arcane Trickster gets better spell progression and better sneak attack and more flexibility.

The archetype gives up way to much trying to preserve "rogue".

As others note, it's better in melee by quite a bit, and has some definite utility advantages in terms of Ninja Tricks and the like.

It's probably worse than Arcane Trickster, but only inasmuch as any 6-level caster is worse than a 9-level caster and for the same reasons.


I have to really question how much 3/4 BAB and half SA progression helps that much in combat, and how many useful ninja tricks are worth burning spell slots over. I get Vanishing Trick being fantastic.

I mean, the AT route at level 1 is better at combat.

At level 3 it's -1 to hit but they deal 2d6 sneak attack, though probably 1 less spell.

At level 8 the BAB difference is now 3, but your spells have overtaken a 6th level caster and you have a few neat AT tricks and better saves.

Liberty's Edge

hiiamtom wrote:
I have to really question how much 3/4 BAB and half SA progression helps that much in combat, and how many useful ninja tricks are worth burning spell slots over. I get Vanishing Trick being fantastic.

Vanishing Trick and Forgotten Trick are the big ones.

hiiamtom wrote:
I mean, the AT route at level 1 is better at combat.

Assuming identical stats and a first level in Rogue (or Brawler, I guess)? Yes. But if going that route I'd expect a higher Int for lower Dex and similar 'less combative' stat allocations on the future Arcane Trickster.

And at that level, the Eldritch Scoundrel can prepare a couple Color Sprays and end whole fights, while the future arcane Trickster is a 1st level Rogue.

Honestly, as a future Arcane Trickster, I'd likely take my first level in Wizard and save Rogue (or whatever) for my 2nd or 3rd level.

hiiamtom wrote:
At level 3 it's -1 to hit but they deal 2d6 sneak attack, though probably 1 less spell.

Accomplished Sneak Attacker is probably the 3rd level Feat for the Eldritch Scoundrel, too. So, at that level it's a 1 BAB for 1 spell trade or so.

hiiamtom wrote:
At level 8 the BAB difference is now 3, but your spells have overtaken a 6th level caster and you have a few neat AT tricks and better saves.

And the Eldritch Scoundrel has their Ninja Trick shenanigans, Evasion, and better HP as well as BAB. We're talking (assuming Con 14 on both and a level of rogue for the AT) 67 HP vs. 55 HP. And 2 more HP difference every level thereafter (assuming FC bonuses in HP). If they don't put the FC bonus in HP, they instead have more skills (or can afford a lower Int)...and still have more HP, just not as much more. If using Unchained Rogue (and you should) the Eldritch Scoundrel also has Rogue's Edge (a minor benefit mostly), free Dex-to-damage (which is nice), and Debilitating Injury (which is a huge combat buff).

I mean, Arcane Trickster is a Wizard with Sneak Attack. Eldritch Scoundrel is a melee character with some magic. They play super differently, and which you want to go with depends on what you want to do.


Forgotten Trick is terrible for Eldrich Scoundrels. It uses a 2nd level slot or worse, probably reaching level 3-4 slots!

I typically enter later and go with Sleepless Detective for the more interesting bonuses to me. Just what I like. It doesn't mean you can't make a more combat oriented AT with better casting too.

You just give up so much of the rogue's ability to get that 6th level casting it doesn't seem worth it at all.

Liberty's Edge

hiiamtom wrote:
Forgotten Trick is terrible for Eldrich Scoundrels. It uses a 2nd level slot or worse, probably reaching level 3-4 slots!

Well, yeah. Burning a 2nd level spell slot to pick up any Combat Feat in the game for the rest of the fight is pretty shiny, though. Situational, but shiny. As is being able to spontaneously cast Feather Fall (even as a 3rd level spell). And you can manage a poor man's Spider Climb when you didn't think to prepare it via Wall Climber. And that's just the first few uses that leap to mind...

Not all of them are gonna be worth it, but the flexibility provided is very nice indeed. Especially on a prepared caster. It's not gonna be your first trick or anything, but by 8th? not a bad choice at all.

hiiamtom wrote:
I typically enter later and go with Sleepless Detective for the more interesting bonuses to me. Just what I like. It doesn't mean you can't make a more combat oriented AT with better casting too.

How?

hiiamtom wrote:
You just give up so much of the rogue's ability to get that 6th level casting it doesn't seem worth it at all.

What do they really give up, though? Uncanny dodge isn't super great, and aside from that it's 5 Rogue Talents, 5 dice of sneak attack, and some skill points. The skill points aren't a huge deal given that the casting is Int-based so you're gonna have plenty of skills anyway, the Rogue Talents hurt a little, but for spellcasting? Totally worth it.

The Sneak Attack hurts worst, but assuming a single Feat (Accomplished Sneak Attacker), you're not behind more than a die until 9th level, then you're at most 2 dice behind all the way until 13th level (where you fall behind 3 dice). You're still 3 dice behind at 15th, and fall to 4 dice at 17th. The spells you get more than make up for that.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:


The spells you get more than make up for that.

Especially when one of those spells is Sense Vitals.


Xethik wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:


The spells you get more than make up for that.
Especially when one of those spells is Sense Vitals.

I am playing an android eldritch scoundrel in the Iron Gods AP (started at level 6 at the beginning of the third book) and now I am around 1k experience before level 8 (when vanishing trick comes online). Until now the spell "Sense Vitals" somehow seemed to never (or almost never) fit in - I used it once in about ten+ combat encounters, It's nice to have, of course.

But usually I cast other things when combat starts (I have mage armor up consistently with rod of lesser extend. When I know/suppose sth. will happen soon I also put up the shield spell before combat, sometimes Mirror Image).

When the fighting starts I use haste and/or - depending on the opposition - sth. like Create Pit or Grease (or the other way round) or Mirror Image if it is not already online, then join melee. Maybe this will change with the advent of boots of speed for the martials/frontliners. I am curious how vanishing trick plays out and if it somehow changes the prominence of Sense Vitals.

P.S.: I don't feel like a necromancer here, because this thread is still valid for players who look for advice on eldritch scoundrels (there are I think three good threads and one guide on building/playing eldritch rogues (see the latest unchained rogue guide at Zenith's guide to the guides collection. Alas, the author is not too fond of the archetype).


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I don't think necroing is bad etiquette, people who complain about it are bitter and lonely, you're fine! I really would like to see more discussion of the ES, it may be my favorite archetype in the game.

You're right about sense vitals. It's not very reliable in that it's got a short duration which excludes its use as a pre-buff and isn't good enough to use in the thick of things. In certain ideal situations it's pretty good but that's hard to come by.

It also hurts our cause that accomplished sneak attacker can only be taken once, so our maximum sneak attack dice come out to a modest 6d6. But you're a spellcaster so you can do things to get around that. Arcane strike will up your average damage. Polymorph spells like beast shape and vermin shape will give you more attacks to sneak with and make your lack of armor a non issue.

I think the most efficient way to play this archetype is a little different though. Spamming ranged touch attack spells and adding damage through sneak attack is EXTREMELY effective.

Finally there's a niche this class can pull off like nobody else: vampiric touch. The ES can do damage with this spell like no one else due to sneaking, and you gain that damage back as HP. By level 7 with accomplished sneak attacker you can drain 7d6 damage.

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