So I've always liked the idea of a debuff tank so I've made quite a few but I'm at a loss on how you are tripping people, you don't have improved trip or any significant bonus to CMB in the first place. As far as I can tell Weapon Finesse doesn't apply to combat maneuvers because of the existence of the agile maneuvers feat. So without any reliable way to knock enemies prone barring command vicious stomp looks kind of looks a wasted feat to me. Other than that I love the mix of healing and debuff whilst remaining difficult to hit but still a threat.
I'm unsure how/why you think your Starknife deals 1d4+5 damage at level 1.
What I see is a -3 strength modifier and a +4 dex modifier. The starknife is a thrown weapon, it will uses dex to attack and strength to damage (as I don't see anything you've done to change that).
So your weapon will deal 1d4-3. Until you pick up a level of unchained rogue, and then when you make a melee attack you get to add your dex modifier. When you make a thrown weapon attack, you still don't.
I'm unsure how/why you think your Starknife deals 1d4+5 damage at level 1.
What I see is a -3 strength modifier and a +4 dex modifier. The starknife is a thrown weapon, it will uses dex to attack and strength to damage (as I don't see anything you've done to change that).
So your weapon will deal 1d4-3. Until you pick up a level of unchained rogue, and then when you make a melee attack you get to add your dex modifier. When you make a thrown weapon attack, you still don't.
Its the divine fighting style it replaces too hit and damage on star knives with charisma.
It requires a permissive GM to allow you to be a Paladin of Desna.
That's a good point.
You can't be a paladin (LG) and worship Desna (CG) to get her divine fighting technique with Starknives. That's pretty incompatible.
Now, the feat is dropped at level 5. But changing your deity mid campaign would typically require some good reason to do so.
If I were your GM this would require extended roleplaying with good reasons for you to leave behind Desna and switch to a lawful good deity instead.
From a practical standpoint, I would say you can't build around this happening.
I'm running this build through Rise of the Rune Lords and just hit level3
Party includes (five other PCs)
(...)
Starting Stats (25pt buy)
Rise of the Runelords was created with 4 players in mind, using 15-point buy and just the Core Rulebook (respective its D&D 3.5 counterpart).
So unless the GM is really infamous for increasing difficulty, you can relax.
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you THIS feat?
Divine Fighting Technique
Desna's Shooting Star
Among the divine fighting manuals of the Inner Sea, few are as ancient as Clamor of the Spheres, a collection of fighting techniques favored by Desna’s faithful. True to its name, the manual focuses on interpreting the chaos and sounds of combat, but nevertheless provides insightful and downright brilliant methods of defense with Desna’s favored weapon, using techniques that treat a fight with a starknife more as a beautiful dance than a battle.
Optional Replacement: A chaotic good bard of at least 2nd level who worships Desna can replace a versatile performance with the following initial benefit.
Initial Benefit: You can add your Charisma bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls when wielding a starknife. If you do so, you don’t modify attack rolls and damage rolls with your starknife with your Strength modifier, your Dexterity modifier (if you have Weapon Finesse), or any other ability score (if you have an ability that allows you to modify attack rolls and damage rolls with that ability score).
It requires a permissive GM to allow you to be a Paladin of Desna.That's a good point.
You can't be a paladin (LG) and worship Desna (CG) to get her divine fighting technique with Starknives. That's pretty incompatible.
This is not correct.
Clerics are required to be within 1 step of their deity's alignment, Paladins are not. You can absolutely be a Paladin who worships Desna.
In Pathfinder Society Paladins (and all divine classes) must be within 1 step of their deity's alignment, and a few of the Devs have said that the way they play is the same ...
... However ...
Paladin's are a part of the Core Rulebook and they still have not - in over a decade - changed the restrictions on Paladins in the rules to say that they can't worship Chaotic good gods.
So check with your GM, but by the rules of the game it's fine.
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Str. 5 is a serious handicap. Expect your GM to remind you of this - I would with no mercy!
You will be medium loaded at 17 lbs and heavy loaded at 34 lbs.
The smallest bag of holding (I) weights 15 pounds so if you want boots and cloth you will hit medium load.
And if you use reduce person to become size small you carry capacity will be 11x 3/4= 8 lbs for medium load and 15 lbs (21x 3/4) for heavy load.
Table: Encumbrance Effects
Load
Medium: max dex: +3 Check Penalty –3 Speed 20 ft. run ×4
Heavy: max dex: +1 Check Penalty –6 Speed 20 ft. run ×3
You lose you cha bonus to AC when medium loaded and gets a max dex of +3.
So much for the Tank.
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Clerics are required to be within 1 step of their deity's alignment, Paladins are not. You can absolutely be a Paladin who worships Desna.
Well, no CG deity has ever received a paladin code afaik. Only LG, LN (Abadar), and NG (Sarenrae, Shelyn) deities have them, which implies those are the only deities that have paladins.
A LG Paladin of a CG deity is unironically a heretic. The ideals of paladins are too much of a conflict with the core philosophies of a CG deity. If you truly are a devout follower of Desna then you would preach and live by a doctrine that pushes your actions towards Chaotic and Good. Not Lawful.
Which is why there are no paladins of CG deities.
Good catch, though I own the books, I rarely use them and instead use the srd, quicker/easier to find what I'm looking for -- and I fall into these traps occasionally, having said that ...
Per Weapon Master's Handbook, it says "Although each deity’s divine fighting technique is primarily preserved and passed on by her faithful, worship is not required to learn one. Instead, these fighting styles simply require a certain manner of looking at the world and specific combat training."
So, around the time I give up the divine fighting feat, I no longer match the fighting style due to the switch to natural attacks ... which means it's a simple hop-skip-and-jump to a new AL (L instead of C) -- could even pick up a couple ranks in knowledge religion to learn how amazingly awesome (LG deity is) and switch that way.
If I were a cleric, warpriest, or any other class that worships a deity, this would be a lot more difficult to stomach.
Ehhh....that's going to take GM buy in. I wouldn't assume your plan works.
If I were your GM I would tell you no, you have to worship the deity the divine fighting style is associated with.
It requires a permissive GM to allow you to be a Paladin of Desna.That's a good point.
You can't be a paladin (LG) and worship Desna (CG) to get her divine fighting technique with Starknives. That's pretty incompatible.
This is not correct.
Clerics are required to be within 1 step of their deity's alignment, Paladins are not. You can absolutely be a Paladin who worships Desna.
In Pathfinder Society Paladins (and all divine classes) must be within 1 step of their deity's alignment, and a few of the Devs have said that the way they play is the same ...
... However ...
Paladin's are a part of the Core Rulebook and they still have not - in over a decade - changed the restrictions on Paladins in the rules to say that they can't worship Chaotic good gods.
So check with your GM, but by the rules of the game it's fine.
Yeah, no. While you're technically correct that nothing bars a paladin from worshipping a non-LG god the general assumptions are that you're playing in the Golarion setting and Desna doesn't have Paladins. This is the kind of thing you would absolutely have to run by a GM.
And if it's not already obvious, I would definitely say no.
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I just don't see it working the way you think it will.
The Strength is unnecessarily pathetic. Why would you ever do that to yourself? A Spider Swarm is pretty much guaranteed to kill you until you get your Paladin levels. You don't even have Leadership, so you clearly expect the party to carry extra weight. That's not cool. You could be the ideal tank of all tankiness, but if you can't carry your own weight...
Speaking of the ideal tank of all tankiness, how do you avoid damage/negate hits? This tank doesn't have anything like Opportune Parry & Riposte to avoid would-be hits, nothing like Cut From the Air or Deflect Arrows to provide any sort of missile defense, no Resolve or Ferocity or Stalwart to provide insurance when you do get hit (because you WILL get hit), you have a 12 Con with no Toughness and too much multiclassing to rely on FCB for HP, no reach or ability to contend with flying enemies so is too easily avoidable to begin with...
Debuffing through Dazzlying Display and possibly Debilitating Injury is largely what I see this character relying on. Without actual investment in Trip, I don't see it being a viable tactic that ever pays off. I doubt you ever use Viscious Stomp, literally never. I imagine you failing and falling prone yourself, or provoking AoO for your attempt (unless I am missing something). And even with the proper investment for tripping, you still don't have the reach or fancy movement to effectively control the battlefield around you.
Tanks have cannons. I do not see how this build plans on dealing damage to anything with higher than average AC. In fact, I don't see how this build addresses flying enemies, incorporeal enemies, invisible enemies, swarms, damage reduction, or undead (anything else immune to fear, for that matter). Sure, you eventually will have Smite a few times a day, but otherwise...? Most of your natural weapons also have limited uses per day, which may or may not pose a problem.
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I would focus more on one thing.
Intimidate str/cha paladin build with full plate. Go for a reach weapon and spiked armor. Works from level 1.
With a natural weapon build I would drop intimidate as a debuff.
Something like
1 lev. Urban Salamander Bloodrager, 1 lev. Scaled fist unchained monk, the rest in Beastmorph vivsectionist alchemist and grab feral mutagen.
With rage and mutagen your dex will be 26 early on. Remember to take the extra rage feat.
Alchemist can make cure extracts.
You could dump cha and Scaled fist monk and just go with a high Wis instead and normal unchained monk.
At STR:5 you have to stay at or below 16 lbs or you'll be encumbered.
Monk's Robes: 2 lbs
Headband: 1 lb
Belt: 1 lb
Starknife: 4 lbs
Cloak of Resistance: 1 lb
That's 9 lbs, leaving you 7 lbs to carry anything else you might want.
The lightest bag of holding is 15 lbs, though I guess you can get yourself a handy Haversack, which is only 5 lbs. But that only leaves 2 lbs.
It's a legitimate question, you'll almost certainly want to carry something at some point.
Bedroll, clothes, mirror, caltrops, soap, rations, rope, pitons, tool kits, extra canvas cloth, chaulk, alchemical items, random loot that doesn't come in the form of coins or gems...
Your gear... all of it... how do you plan on carrying all the stuff required for adventurering?
What if the party finds loot in the way of expensive magical items, say enchanted armor... there is enough for everyone to have their own piece of expensive enchanted armor, doesn't matter if you wear it or not, this is your prize... your payment... all you get, take it or leave it, wear it or sell it... it's yours.
Everyone else in the party picks up their prize and heads for the door, but you... I can't, meh, ugh... can someone help me?
No such thing as overkill on a "tank" build... what, you made your tank too hard to kill?
Could go Half-Orc for Ferocity, one level of Unbreakable Fighter, and split the rest of your levels between Warrior Poet Samurai and Hospitaler Paladin... Fey Foundling, Endurance, Diehard, Fast Healer, Unconquerable Resolve, Greater Mercy, Ultimate Mercy, Ultimate Resolve... there's a tank...
as someone mentioned earlier, there may be quite a few giants in the AP, perhaps the more pertinent question about dumping strength to very small child levels, is what do you do about grapples or really anything vs your CMD?
Personally, I'd kick you around the battlefield like a soccer ball for s++&zngiggles
No such thing as overkill on a "tank" build... what, you made your tank too hard to kill?
Could go Half-Orc for Ferocity, one level of Unbreakable Fighter, and split the rest of your levels between Warrior Poet Samurai and Hospitaler Paladin... Fey Foundling, Endurance, Diehard, Fast Healer, Unconquerable Resolve, Greater Mercy, Ultimate Mercy, Ultimate Resolve... there's a tank...
I disagree to an extent. There is going overboard on a tank build in the sense that if your character is to hard to affect, that the enemy starts to ignore you unless you present some strong reason not to.
If you're efficiently debuffing them than they're likely not to ignore you. If you're capable of dealing good damage they're not likely to ignore you.
Being able to heal the party...it's a maybe. Depends on the ratio of healing to damage dealt, and also if you're capable of doing it at range. If the enemy just needs to keep distance between you and the person you want to heal until they're dead they might prefer to focus on your team mates and save you for last.
If you stand there incapable of doing anything, but also incapable of having anything done to you, you are effectively a big stone and thus inconsequential to the combat.
I've seen too many fighter tanks that focus on having a big AC and hp, but have pathetic damage output and no C/C capabilities and thus might as well not exist (because there is no [well very little] "taunt" or threat mechanics).
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I personally don't think there's a better debuffing tank out there than a Quick Dirty Tricks Master-focused Brawler with Pummeling Charge and Boots of Haste.
At level 11, you could be charging 120ft + Full attack (6 attacks) and one of those attacks is going to be a Quick Dirty Trick to Blind or Sicken-->Nauseate(the following round) that can only be removed with a Standard Action. Without considering Cornugon Smash or a Cruel AoMF in this mix for the Shaken/Sicken combo, this QDT Master + 120ft Charge w/ Full Attack alone is straight lock-down status for anyone the Brawler decides is the highest current threat.
Awhile back, I remember helping theorycraft a level 13 DT Master Brawler for someone in an Advice forums thread for a One-shot specifically designed for a CR 21 Krampus fight (CMD 58), and this Brawler had a host of specific items and buffs that allowed him to: charge 120ft, full attack, and hit 58 CMD on every roll except a nat 1 (with certain items active & flanking) or a 5 roll (with no items/flanking), and a 3 roll while charging (no items/flanking). So he would charge 120ft, Sicken with QDT + Finish his Full attack, and if Krampus doesn't use his Standard Action to clear the Sicken condition, then the following round = Nauseate, so Move Actions only now, and the fight is essentially over; Krampus is now a Loot Piñata because he needs a Standard Action to remove the Nauseate Condition and can only take Move Actions. And if Krampus clears the Sicken condition with a Standard in the 1st round, then you Sicken again the following round. Basically Krampus gets nothing but Move Actions once the Brawler is on him. With a specific item active and also while flanking, that Brawler could make average 71.5 CMB rolls with a DT, and average 63.5 CMB roll without the item, charging, or flanking.
And that style of build doesn't just work on Krampus, it works on anything CR21 and below (avg CMD 56-58 or less) that isn't immune to Blind AND Nauseate conditions, which is pretty rare. Even if a particular enemy is immune to both conditions, that build dealt a truckload of damage because Pummeling Style adds up every hit before subtracting DR.
Dirty Trick (AoN), wrote:
... hitting a foe in a sensitive spot to make him sickened for a round.
Cannot hitting the foe in a sensitive spot be done with an unarmed strike? Would such a thing still work with Pummeling Style?
Pummeling Style (AoN), wrote:
... This ability works only with unarmed strikes, no matter what other abilities you might possess.
Is Quick Dirty Trick just some "other abilites you might possess"?
Quick Dirty Trick can be used with Flurry of Blows, but it's a combat maneuver that takes the place of your Highest BAB attack, so it's not an attack.
Oh, I was just asking. I actually don't have an iron in this fire one way or another.
I seen what meyerwilliam was getting at/asking at the end of his post, and grabbed some quotes from AoN... mainly so nobody else would have to.
Pummeling Style requires that you're not using a Monk Weapon with any of the attacks that you're attempting to qualify for adding all the attacks up before DR reduction. Like, you could be wearing a Cestus, but if you're going to do a Flurry of Blows with Pummeling Style, then all your attacks that round must be made with unarmed strikes and none of them can include the Cestus. QDT isn't an attack, it's a Combat Maneuver in place of an attack, so you could even perform the QDT with the cestus if you wanted, and then make the rest of your Flurry of Blows with unarmed strikes and still qualify for Pummeling Style.
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I've seen a DC 17 Fear Aura in Book 1 of a Paizo AP (3rd lvl PCs). Just saying.
At level 7, my saves look to be around:
Fort +18, Ref + 23, Will +15Thats basically saving on a 2 in most cases. So yes, overkill.
That's saving on a 2.
(15+2=17)
I don't think you're saving on a 2 at 3rd lvl.
EDIT: My point is that forgoing a cloak of resistance weakens your PC unnecessarily.
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See, here's the thing ... in a grapple you are allowed to use one handed/light weapons -- like natural attacks. If I get grappled, that is one dead giant. As far as CMD questions ... remember, since I am not wearing armor, my AC is basically my CMD which will be higher than a full-plate wearing tank. And since I am finessing things, I use my Dex instead of my STR for CMB (as explained in earlier posts) so this reduction has no impact on my CMB.
except when grappled you'll take a double hit, the -4 to Dex and then the -2 to attack
Example: estimated level 9 version of my toon compared to iconic level 12 paladin
CMD: 10 (base) + dex (6) + bab (6) + char (6) + ring (2) = CMD 30 vs CMD 27
An Ash Giant (CR11 -- First giant appearing in a google search for giant) has a CMB of +22
Comparing Smite Evil vs Debuffing (similar role)
(effectively) me: 38 vs 31 (paladin)Not sure how it would be easy to kick me around the battlefield. Can you post numbers?
you should still be taking the -3 penalty from your 5 strength, bringing it to 27. Earliest giant one runs into, save troll, is probably the Hill, giant (CR 7) and they still nab you on a 12, Frost Giants are well within your CR (@11) and they are +20. You present as a nice target being rail thin and shuddering under the mountainous weight of *checks notes* your clothes, making you a tempting target. Should you prove burdensome to hold, well, you're much lighter than a rock which they can throw a 1/4 mile...
really your CMD isn't bad, it's about average, meaning anything meant to perform a combat maneuver is going to succeed, but you present too nice a target (you're small and weak, you're a force multiplier with your group with heals and debuffs and are a moderate threat in melee). I mean something could simply trip you and then free action drop a shield or great axe on you and you'd be effectively pinned ;P (as I GM, I'd hit you with tanglefoot bags until the weight of goo was more than you could bear)
at the end of the day, it's not the mechanics you can squeeze out though, compensating however you want, it's that you are barely stronger than an ordinary house cat. Min/maxing aside, that's ridiculous and should be a glaring hole to be exploited at all encounters much to the detriment of yourself and your group.
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Well your AC is not absurdly high if you are medium loaded.
10 base 3 dex 0 cha and some natural armor, deflection and perhaps mage armor from a wand if you are ready for a fight.
I shouldn't ever be encumbered ... since as I posted above, I won't really be carrying anything ... headband / belt weigh one pound each ... rings, amulet and stones are also pretty light.
Since I am level 3 at the moment, changing my character around like this isn't actually an option. At level 3, my AC is 23 for using mage armor (we don't have treasure yet).I would focus more on one thing.
Intimidate str/cha paladin build with full plate. Go for a reach weapon and spiked armor. Works from level 1.
With a natural weapon build I would drop intimidate as a debuff.
Something like
1 lev. Urban Salamander Bloodrager, 1 lev. Scaled fist unchained monk, the rest in Beastmorph vivsectionist alchemist and grab feral mutagen.
With rage and mutagen your dex will be 26 early on. Remember to take the extra rage feat.
Alchemist can make cure extracts.
You could dump cha and Scaled fist monk and just go with a high Wis instead and normal unchained monk.
Sorry didn’t know your character was already in play. Looked like input on a new build for your group.
Regarding equipment:Cold weather cloth: 7 lbs.
Travellers outfit: 5 lbs.
Holy symbol: 1 lbs
Bedroll: 5 lbs.
Blanket: 3 lbs.
Hammock: 3 lbs.
Belt pouch: 0,5 lbs.
Waterskin: 4 lbs.
Common backpack: 2 lbs. (emty)
Trail rations: 1 lbs. pr. day
Lamp: 1 lbs.
Lamp Oil: 1 lbs.
50 ft. silk rope: 5 lbs.
And then there is all the fun and/or magic stuff you just want to being along because it is cool.
A horse will help you where you can bring it with you, and your compagnions can carry your stuff as well. But do not go anywhere alone...
Edit: Do you have a high str. compagnion in your party?
A Buffing Bard, a twf dex based unchained rogue, a fighter archer, a control/blaster sorcerer, and a magus....
I don't think any of the iconics become moderately encumbered after eating a big meal...this you might take note, is also hyperbole, as was dropping something on you or overloading you with tanglefoot bags, it's a ridiculous example of what your ridiculously low strength would hamper you if it occurred.
a 5 in a stat is pretty ridiculous and brings to mind all sorts of shenanigans in min/maxing. You basic load out is more than half your light load. Swinging a sword is tiring, really really quick, now imagine that sword weight effectively five times as much for a normal person. You'd look like Starvin' Marvin or a fox that has just come out of hibernation, which is weird since they don't hibernate and oh god, is that thing rabid?!?
At that strength you should struggle to open every door, push every chair, you can't even lift your body weight, etc. At 9th level which you want to compare stuff at, you're now in Crippling Strike territory, meaning 1 hit and you become heavy encumbered, two and it's pretty much game over.
As a tank you should be able to shrug off attacks AND effects, as it is now, a pretty common type of ability damage and you're toast. Golarion gods help you should you run into a Shadow...
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A lot of this build relies on assuming things will go the way that you want - you are assuming you can get a specific item, you are assuming that you are using the retraining rules and will have the time to retrain a feat, you are assuming that you can change alignment and religion part way through the campaign.
All of those are very ref- and campaign dependant, so I think you need to be taking your questions to you referee, not the internet.