Round 2 is Coming

No dog in this fight, other than being an avid voter this year (life....ugh.)

Really looking forward to this. I think we will all learn much about the design process from the judge critiques for this round of entries.

I know these aren't the official rules and I could wait a bit, but I wanted to find out if this round was specifically for a 5' by 5' grid style battlemap, or whether it could be a large overview style map. I'm expecting a battlemap, but I can't shut my brain up about mapping some huge amazing location, and this post is juuuust vague enough that I'm hoping for some confirmation before Tuesday.

Either way, thanks for the hints on the next round!

I'm pleasantly surprised it doesn't have to be an encounter map (at least based on what I'm reading). I think that opens things up to some more variety...

I'm still concerned that people are going to judge based on artistic merit, even though it needs to be more aimed at a cartographer (as judges have noted in previous rounds), but I appreciate the early head's up...

Location or area...oh man...imagination running wild now!

I'm not as concerned as folks judging on artistic merit in R2, again, the voting is really ranking it and the judges will still be looking at all 32 to see which is best to proceed. It is a much smaller list they have to look at, 32 vs. Top 100/89/Whatever they have to look at for R1.

After Round 1, voting is how you advance. The judges just give recommendations.

Is it?! Hmmm not sure why I thought I remembered judges picked but you're right!

Putting away the after surgery pain meds now...

(Speaking of which, not sure how I'm going to draw a map after shoulder surgery)

Where are you seeing this round 2 info, Head?

Drawing on past experience for the judges bit, but extrapolating on Owen's hints for the area or region bit. I could be off but it seems that R2 won't be encounter only.

So as someone who is only a casual visitor to Golarion, what HAS been mapped already?

Thanks. I started looing around for round 2 rules posted!

Teal: the vast majority of existing maps on Golarion are for locations discussed in the APs or other adventures. After all, that's where they need to be to get used.
So, for example, three (four) APs are in Varsia, so a lot of Varsia's most interesting locations are mapped (though FAR from all). One is in the Stolen Lands, so parts of that are mapped, though far less. One is in Osirion, One in Numenaria, and so on.

I recommend taking a look at a Golarion world map, and seeing if any country or area catches your eye, then see if anything's been done for it. Even though they're coming up on 100 AP modules, that's what - maybe 500 maps? 500 maps *might* cover every area of importance of my town and a few miles in all directions.

So as someone who is only a casual visitor to Golarion, what HAS been mapped already?

I recommend looking through the Inner Sea World Guide for a city or some place on the map that looks interesting. Then do a search for it, even if just google, and see if any module or adventure path takes place there. If not, there's likely no map for it. Many modules have the place's name in the module's title (Doom Comes to Dustspawn, Fangwood Keep, Carrion Hill, etc) so it should be easy to find whether a map exists of it.

So, what does a cartographer do exactly? Or maybe a better question, why does an already clear map need to be sent to a cartographer?

So, what does a cartographer do exactly? Or maybe a better question, why does an already clear map need to be sent to a cartographer?

For the same reason a mug shot isn't as popular as a glamor shot.

For the same reason we put art of weapons in even after we say they're swords and give them game stats.

Clear, concise, and imaginative isn't the same as pretty or fun to look at. That's why we also mention artistic merit doesn't matter here. But it WILL matter for the cartographer's final version.

For example, you can make it clear that a bunch of ^ marks are mountains, and a blue line is a river, and the * is a city, but that's not exciting. Also, a professional cartographer can make things clearer, even if they are already clear. Much as we insist text have a professional level of writing from our writers, and a professional level of development from our developers... and then it still goes to our editors.

A cartographer's job is to take a complete but not-artistic image, and turn it into something that's even more fun to look at. It is not their job to decide how wide mountain ranges are, where pillars go in a temple, or how many shops are in the market square of Adventureville. Every detail should come from our adventure writer, who is after all the only one who knows what the picture in her head looks like when she's writing an adventure.

And making that initial map is a tough skill, which is why we're testing for it.

So, what does a cartographer do exactly? Or maybe a better question, why does an already clear map need to be sent to a cartographer?

The cartographer is a professional artist responsible for the final version of the map to be published in an adventure. The designer turns over a draft of the map and notes about important details to the cartographer. The cartographer then creates a polished version of it for publication. However, the cartographer does more than make the map look pretty. She makes sure the map is in a format the developers can use in the final production. The cartographer also ensures the map has an art style consistent with existing products, which is important for product identity. In short, the cartographer makes the map's professional quality and handles all of the details that a designer likely doesn't have the time or expertise to do themselves.

I might be wrong, but this is what I've gathered based on several posts by contributors and my own experience with commissioning and publishing artwork for commercial works.

So as someone who is only a casual visitor to Golarion, what HAS been mapped already?

For cities mapped in Adventure Paths, check the PathfinderWiki index of AP articles. Also check the Poster Map Folio products associated with each adventure path.

Modules and adventures set in locations or cities also often map those locations. You can browse those in the PathfinderWiki adventures by location category.

Also, if a place has been the focus of a Pathfinder Campaign Setting product, chances are the book contained at least a map of the region.

At least off the top of my head, that means many notable locations in Absalom and Varisia, quite a few in Cheliax, Ustalav, the Shackles, Irrisen, the Crown of the World, Numeria, Osirion, the River Kingdoms (especially near the Numerian border), Sargava, the Worldwound, and a handful in Tian Xia are mapped. Belkzen's already been covered and is up for even more detail next, and Andoran soon after.

There's still quite a few unmapped locations in all of those places, and whole chunks of the Inner Sea region that have very little documentation. (What's up Nirmathas, Molthune, Druma, the Five Kings Mountains, Thuvia...) That's not even counting things outside the Inner Sea region, though going that far out might be a bad idea.

Does this mean that all they want is a picture?

As in...JUST a picture?

As in...Zero words? Or a map title at least?

"a full-page map, or a previously unmapped fantasy-themed location in Golarion"

Was that "or" intended to be "of"?

My inner editor keeps tripping over it, trying to find the hidden meaning.

Does this mean that all they want is a picture?

As in...JUST a picture?

As in...Zero words? Or a map title at least?

Guess we'll find out in three days! Patience.

(But I doubt it.)

"a full-page map, or a previously unmapped fantasy-themed location in Golarion"

Was that "or" intended to be "of"?

My inner editor keeps tripping over it, trying to find the hidden meaning.

FFS. (Fat-Finger Syndrome)

I read over that post at least 3 times without noticing that one.

Yes, it should be "a full-page map, of a previously unmapped fantasy-themed location in Golarion"

Any suggestions on a free / shareware tool that can take images from scanners / camera and downscale the dpi? Does anyone know what 150 dpi is in terms of pixel resolution?

... Does anyone know what 150 dpi is in terms of pixel resolution?

1275 X 1650 pixels on a 8.5" x 11" page.

so, for clarification,does the map need to be of a specific location type (say a temple To an evil god) rather than a specific place (temple to Asmodeus on the corner of 5th and Main in the Capitol of Cheliax)? I ask this because without a text description to accompany it, it will be very difficult to convey that kind of exactness. (Also, I think that the latter cuts into the imaginative quality.)

This is just a brief overview of what rd 2 will be. More exact details will be released with the official rd 2 rules. Either later today or Tuesday. (they are closed Monday so unless Owen feels really benevolent it won't be then)

According to the blog post, the official rules will be posted on tuesday. I'm hoping for either an early clarification on that or clarification with the official rules. It's a tiny, but extremely important distinction. If you have to pick an established, unmapped geographic point that is quite different than a map that adds something to a region but is consistent with the geographic flavor. Also, most named geographic points also have some accompanying description somewhere. Are we supposed to incorporate that description into our map?

Like I said, important clarifications that need to be made before the map is drawn.

Yea which is why you have t wait til Tuesday to do most of it.

Yea which is why you have t wait til Tuesday to do most of it.

Or draw both.

Or draft maps for as many contingencies as you can imagine.

Procrastination anyone? I don't enjoy drawing, so I will wait until I know what is needed.

Procrastination anyone? I don't enjoy drawing, so I will wait until I know what is needed.

I'm with you on this. That's exactly how I'm thinking of this (not that I have any idea if I'll even need to do such a thing for the contest).

Procrastination anyone? I don't enjoy drawing, so I will wait until I know what is needed.

I'm tossing around ideas of what I could map, but actual drawing work is on hold for the moment.

I'm with feros. Until I know what exactly I'm doing I'm not putting anything to paper yet

I appreciate Owen's post, but it has left me just as confused as before about the central issue here: I still have no idea of the elevation from which this map we're designing is supposed to be viewed.

"A full-page map, of a previously unmapped fantasy-themed location in Golarion" makes me think it's supposed to be a map of a large-ish region, like the area around the Shimmerglens that players spend so much time in during Rise of the Runelords.

On the other hand, bothering to say "no one needs a map of a 20-foot by 20-foot room with a door centered in the north and west walls" makes it sound like it's going to be a much more zoomed-in encounter style map with 5' squares. But then again, the next sentence dispels that notion with: "...or of a forest that's six miles long and three miles deep with a single road and one town in the middle."

Or maybe contestants will be able to choose a zoomed-in (encounter style) or zoomed out (regional) map, but it seems like those two styles would be difficult to judge against each other. And then of course, there's also the middle ground possibility of a sort of location/dungeon map.

So, Owen, you probably intended to keep this issue vague, but on the off chance that you didn't...could you help me out and clarify this one thing?

Note: This is just my speculation.

I don't think it will be an encounter size map as that is Round 4. The point he seems to be making with the forest example is that if you zoom out that far the whole thing needs to interesting and worth mapping. In his example, you might map the town but there's no real reason to map the forest or road unless there is something unique about it. What I took from this is if you zoom in to far there won't be enough space to do anything interesting and Superstar with but zoom out to far and you will end up with a lot of pointless dead space that doesn't need to be mapped.

I doodle maps anyways, so there's no change in my strategery. :D

And this assumes the unlikely scenario where I even have to make a map ;)

If it were me, I'd be brainstorming ideas for any scale. And then trying to figure out what would make them superstar. A tower is boring, a blackened tower of glass and bone is better. A forest is boring, the Petrified Forest of the Treants is better. Try to put some spin on regular ideas that you could drop into nearly any setting.

Even if the challenge allows for any scale of maps, a cool idea (which is hard to convey on a country scale map), should be obvious. Even then, look at evocative shapes that tell a story-shapes that are natural, or represent civilization, or the supernatural. Figure out what each of those are and work from there.

~1650 x 1275 pixels? That's about one 1080p monitor's worth of real estate, right?

Maybe by Tuesday I will have gotten some rest and be mentally more functional than I am today.

Of course, this is ASSUMING my [REDACTED] makes the Top 32 and I advance to the mapping round!

But I absolutely shall. I have confidence.

But DANG. Golarion? Really? Crud, I don't play in the default setting and don't have much in the way of resources to cover it. Oh, well ... I'll come up with something!

But DANG. Golarion? Really? Crud, I don't play in the default setting and don't have much in the way of resources to cover it. Oh, well ... I'll come up with something!

Well, almost all of Paizo's official products, except the rules line, are set in Golarion, and the grand prize of the contest is a contract to write an adventure for the module line. Those have, without exception, been set in Golarion. So it really shouldn't come as a surprise that demonstrating knowledge of the official setting is a significant part of this contest.

That being said, you can get a lot of knowledge about Golarion for free from the Pathfinder Wiki.

Also, in previous years, pdf copies of the Inner Sea World Guide have been provided free of charge to anyone who make it to the Top 32.

Wrote a blog thing on this. tl;dr: Not many scales or types of maps have been excluded by this post (except for extraplanar and off-world maps), and I think smaller-scale maps still offer more room to tell stories and build gameplay than larger-scale ones.

As for the size, I've added 8.5"x11" 150 dpi 1275x1650-pixel versions of my unofficial map grid to the collection:

I know I'm brushing up on my Golarion geography. I'd imagine the maps will include a title and a key, both which can be (or will be required to be) used to locate the map on the globe.

I also find ideas flow better when I'm creating something to fill a niche in need, rather than spinning something together in a void. I think the constraints help to focus the creative juices (rather than having them just splash everywhere).

In that spirit, I'm throwing together a lot of rough sketches with different rules. The great thing about sketching is that it doesn't require artistic ability to be useful. Scribbles on the page can still give you an idea of how to use the space and what will look cool. The scribbles can be replaced with ^, *, and %s for the final draft.

Crayons can be great too. Light green = plains, dark green = forest, and so on.

I'm the visual artist in a non-visual art family. My heart goes out to those with drawing anxiety. It's all going to work out.

Well, almost all of Paizo's official products, except the rules line, are set in Golarion, and the grand prize of the contest is a contract to write an adventure for the module line. Those have, without exception, been set in Golarion. So it really shouldn't come as a surprise that demonstrating knowledge of the official setting is a significant part of this contest.

All very good points, which I have a tendency to forget. *shrug* Means I'll have to learn more, faster.

And many thanks for the wiki link - I'm sure I will use it rather prodigiously over the next few days!

Wrote a blog thing on this. tl;dr: Not many scales or types of maps have been excluded by this post (except for extraplanar and off-world maps), and I think smaller-scale maps still offer more room to tell stories and build gameplay than larger-scale ones.

As for the size, I've added 8.5"x11" 150 dpi 1275x1650-pixel versions of my unofficial map grid to the collection:

24 x 30 squares (~1/3" squares)

17 x 22 squares (~1/2" squares)

8 x 11 squares (~1" squares)

Nice blog post, example links, and grids! Thanks, Garrett!

And, thanks, Owen, for the guidelines to get the creative juices flowing!

There's some really good discussion going on here, and I'm really happy to see it. It is, in fact, exactly what I hopped to get from this blog post.

I completely understand people freaking out a bit while trying to figure out what to map. One of the reasons I understand is that I've freaked out myself more than once.

See, freelance adventure writing or region sourcebook writing tend to have instructions like "Write an adventure that matches the outline below. 22,000 words. 3 pages of maps. First milestone (2 weeks), final turnover )4 weeks)."

Now the outline will be more-or-less detailed based on the project and publisher and developer. But rarely is the freelancer told what to map.

"3 pages." In Paizo, that's nearly always full-page or half-page maps, so between 3 and 6 maps. It could be more maps or less, depending on the project. But often the freelancer decides what needs maps.

Do I map the whole region I have encounters in? Just the places I expect fights? If the monastery is going to be the center of an investigation, does it need a map even though I think the only place a fight is likely is the labyrinthine secret library? And, on that note, how the heck do I do a map of a labyrinth that isn't dull for the GM and/or frustrating for the players?

Does the bandit campsite need a map? What about the ambush on the bridge. It's just a bridge... right? Or do I want a troll under the bridge, and traps in the middle, and nets in the water under the traps...

Those aren't easy decisions. Knowing how to make maps augment text rather than just accompany it is a key skill. Does the map, in and of itself, spark interest and ideas? If the answer it yes, your text can build on that. If the answer is no, you're already playing catch-up with the buyer's interest.

If the monastery is going to be the center of an investigation, does it need a map even though I think the only place a fight is likely is the labyrinthine secret library?

Apparently someone was told to write an adventure based on The Name of the Rose? :-)

I didn't want to take up examples someone might ACTUALLY want to map, so since easter eggs are bad form for contests and products, I sometimes go to them for examples. :)

Hey, it's a favorite novel of mine; I don't mind it getting some free publicity. People who haven't read it: go read it! Owen KC Stephens says so!

Name of the Rose would be an AMAZING adventure! That is the gold standard I hold my own investigation efforts up against!

I just came up with some cool ideas that would look good in an adventure. Now I have to figure out where it would fit in Golarion.

I'm in the same boat of "I don't see much point in trying to create pre-maps before the actual qualifications are announced," personally. I mean, I think that prepping as much as you can is a good thing, but if several years' worth of doing maps of regions and encounters hasn't already taught me the skillset to make a decent map as needed, then I doubt that cramming in a few more maps, days before the next round, will magically develop those skills to an appreciable degree, alas.

Of course, I only have a <10% chance of moving on to the next round anyway, so this could all be academic. :)

Freelancers able to create clear and imaginative maps that don't need us to do anything but send them to a cartographer have a huge advantage over those who can't (and may even get work to create sketches of maps we then hand to adventure writers).

Do you have an example you could post of an actual map submitted by one of your freelancers that you thought was awesome, and maybe side by side with what the finished product looked like after the cartographer got a hold of it?