Plus, Disarm has panache. When you have panache, you don't need anything else.
Although I suppose you probably dumped Charisma, so no panache. Stick to trip.
Bullrush with shield basher is scary, if used properly with terrain and conjurations like black tentacles.
A player of mine built a pouncing bull rushing barbarian build on overbearing assault and AOOs which was even more scary.
Grapple is good at neutralizing spellcasters a lot of times - barring THAT spell.
Dirty trick can be awesome. Means an enemy incapable of charge or pick up a target. This means a lot. I've seen our rogue have the best from it.
Disarm and Sunder depends from te campaign - but a smasher barbarian or a TH fighter with greater sunder could mean heavy armored targets drop AC by 4-9 in 1 round. Rogue says thank you.
Drag, I've seen it used by a Dragonne cohort in a melee heavy party. Fun.
EDIT: a note on the "spending a feat": getting the AOO in PF makes you subtract the damage to the CMB, not fail automatically the maneuver. So the barbarian can get the AOO from the sorcerer and likely win nevertheless.
Moreover, it's very good attempting them vs. flat footed enemies without Combat Reflexes, even if you don't have the feat (CMD is lower too!).
Because you cannot trip flying creatures.
Now size is not useful for disarm - but this means you can use Sai and Nunchaku ;)
In 3.5 made no sense use those weapons. Size could matter at best for sunder IMHO. And is no needed.
Personally I think all combat maneuvers suck equally, but that isn't the point of this thread and isn't particularly constructive.
To add some constructive input into this discussion, here are some reasons to invest in other CMs besides/instead of Trip:
1. Trip requires Combat Expertise and Int of 13, which isn't feasible
for all characters.
2. Trip is really only effective on polearm builds using weapons that
have the trip feature.
3. Bull Rush is strictly better for sword and board melee characters.
4. Many creatures in the Bestiary have far higher CMDs vs. Trip than
other maneuvers, particularly creatures with more than 2 legs.
Hope that provides some insight.
Personally I think all combat maneuvers suck equally, but that isn't the point of this thread and isn't particularly constructive.
I found it rock, mostly. You just have to be clever and use all the bonuses.
The only sucky, sucky, sucky thing is the size limitation. CMD already take count of this.
So, WHY?
A monster's CMD at, oh CR 6 and up will typically far outpace a PC's CMB. Go ahead and thumb through the bestiary and check average CMD's.
Against class leveled humanoids, combat maneuvers can be effective. Against monsters, it doesn't matter if they're immune to Trip/Sunder/Disarm because it gets increasingly harder to make the check in the first place.
I find overrun to be effective, because it can be taken by high Str/low Int characters, it can knock enemies prone, can cause them to provoke, and can put your meleer next to squishy archers and casters.
Bull rush with a shield bash is very effective. As a DM, I like to Sunder player's stuff cause I'm evil; for players, while you can't sunder armor, you can sunder: weapons, component pouches, quivers, wands, scrolls, the list goes on. Also, because in PF it's easier to fix broken stuff, Sunder doesn't have as big an effect on loot.
Like trip, disarm puts an enemy at a disadvantage and likely makes them provoke(when they waste a move to pick up their weapon). If an ememy has a particularly pimp weapon, (and if you ask the DM to include one for you, of course he's goind to put it in the hands of a baddie) you can possibly deprive him of it more reliably than sunder.
Because my grappling snake druid killed the other four members of the group by himself.
2d8+9 bite + auto-succeed grab (or 80% if I didn't want the grappled condition so I could grab two people or more) + 2d8+9 constrict is pure win
The main reason shield bash bull rush is awesome is because you
1) attack and deal damage
2) have a BR attempt immediately thereafter.
And this counts as an attack instead of a standard action.
@Quantum Steve: I've seen maneuvers being effective up to level 15 of the game, as today. I wish to point out that my encounters are a little bit more complicated than "so, you face this big lonely monster.."
Barring, of course, the aforementioned size nonsense.
Personally I think all combat maneuvers suck equally, but that isn't the point of this thread and isn't particularly constructive.I found it rock, mostly. You just have to be clever and use all the bonuses.
The only sucky, sucky, sucky thing is the size limitation. CMD already take count of this.
So, WHY?
Mostly for two reasons:
1. CMs take an entire standard action, do no damage, and have a far lower probability of hitting than a regular attack at highest BAB. I've found that many mobs tend to have higher CMDs than ACs, which just exacerbates the problem.
2. They tend to be very feat intensive for (to me anyway) very little payoff.
Note that this is just my experience and I haven't provided any mathematics to back it up.
Personally I think all combat maneuvers suck equally, but that isn't the point of this thread and isn't particularly constructive.To add some constructive input into this discussion, here are some reasons to invest in other CMs besides/instead of Trip:
1. Trip requires Combat Expertise and Int of 13, which isn't feasible
for all characters.2. Trip is really only effective on polearm builds using weapons that
have the trip feature.3. Bull Rush is strictly better for sword and board melee characters.
4. Many creatures in the Bestiary have far higher CMDs vs. Trip than
other maneuvers, particularly creatures with more than 2 legs.Hope that provides some insight.
Why is Trip only effective on a polearm build? I've found Trip to be powerful on my Flail-wielding Magus. The others, not so much. I did use Bull Rush to push someone off a ledge, but I've found about 50x more uses for Trip.
Why is Bull Rush better for a Sword/Board character? I haven't spent that much time researching ever available feat.
And once you start specializing in a combat maneuver, they seem pretty trivial to execute. The afore-mentioned 5th level Magus has a +15 to Trip, which lets him trip everything he's encountered so far on a ~8+ or so. Far better chance to trip than hit for lethal damage. And once they're on the ground, they have a much lower chance of hitting and greater chance of being hit (w/melee).
Re: polearms, my mistake, I should have said polearms or other weapons that have the Trip quality.
Bull Rush is better for S&B characters cause those characters tend to want to protect their allies. If a mob is tearing up an ally, you can bull rush them, push them away from your ally, step up adjacent to the mob, and your ally can safely withdraw. It's a common tactic with S&B fighters in particular.
You are correct in that there are many more good uses for trip, but it also is more feat intensive and harder to pull off cause of the higher CMDs many mobs have vs. trip.
Hope that clarifies things.
Actually, part of the example given go around the standard action thing. The fighter used a shield, and the barbarian bull rushed douring charges (which were pouncing O_O).
So, I don't think that you are wrong. About feats, IMO you should take 2 maneuvers for 1 feat. Go figure. And Combat Expertise is int 13+ from 3.0. WHY?
So yeah, people are right can be done better. i just think that by being smart or by builds you can go around it.
And I don't bring in numbers neither - just my group's experience.
And what I said does not consider the awesome behind a Barbarian with Strenght Surge, Knockback and Knockdown, Smasher and Improved Grapple.
Actually, part of the example given go around the standard action thing. The fighter used a shield, and the barbarian bull rushed douring charges (which were pouncing O_O).
So, I don't think that you are wrong. About feats, IMO you should take 2 maneuvers for 1 feat. Go figure. And Combat Expertise is int 13+ from 3.0. WHY?
So yeah, people are right can be done better. i just think that by being smart or by builds you can go around it.
And I don't bring in numbers neither - just my group's experience.
And what I said does not consider the awesome behind a Barbarian with Strenght Surge, Knockback and Knockdown, Smasher and Improved Grapple.
You are correct in that the Shield Mastery/Shield Slam combo takes away the issue of using up a standard action and doing no damage. However, that combo is so feat intensive that you may as well abandon any ideas of doing anything else with your character.
You very rightly brought up that there are workarounds to the major weaknesses I see with all CMs, but I just don't see the benefit of sinking so many feats into them. Especially in light of the point that Quantum Steve made about your chances of hitting monsters with any CM taking a nosedive after CR 6 or 7.
Considering a Fighter or Barbarian's DPR, you're better off just full attacking and killing the damn thing than messing around too much with CMs. As my GM says "Dead is the best condition".
It comes down to the Fighter wanting to control the battle field, you can do it by Killing the bad guy or you can Position him so others can kill him.
Ive thought about playing a Fighter with Drag, Bull rush and Trip. to allow for Various combat positionings but i hav enot had a chance to try it.
Overrun can ne good also in my experience.
Ive also seen some pretty nice Grappling barbarians
Because you're a horse and you're just hoping to bowl your opponent over as your master spears him with a lance as part of one continuous charge.
Huh, today I learned that I'm a horse.
Off to eat some hay, I guess.
It comes down to the Fighter wanting to control the battle field, you can do it by Killing the bad guy or you can Position him so others can kill him.
Ive thought about playing a Fighter with Drag, Bull rush and Trip. to allow for Various combat positionings but i hav enot had a chance to try it.
Overrun can ne good also in my experience.
Ive also seen some pretty nice Grappling barbarians
Mojo, I completely agree. Battlefield control is a great thing for a Fighter or Barbarian, Paladin or other melee class to be able to do. My issue is not that I don't think these types of maneuvers aren't useful, my issue is that they seem to have a low probability for success.
Mobs' CMDs are just too high for most PCs to have much success with CMs. Just like Intimidation in combat: cool if it works, but a low percentage move.
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Mobs? Don't try to trip or bull-rush a mob of humans. Just try bull-rushing one at a time. :-P
On a more serious note, combat maneuvers rarely succeed against a BBEG-style enemy. But they frequently succeed against:
- Arcane casters
- Lower-level fighting classes
- Semi-fighting classes
- Small enemies
Under most circumstances, one should not attempt any of these combat maneuvers:
- When the party is out-gunned by a single creature
- Against dragons, giants, and enemies of extreme size and great strength. Oddly, it's not the size that really makes a difference. It's their strength values.
- Fighting classes of a higher level than the PC.
First :P Mob is a soley Computer term with no applicibility to a paper game.
that Said Im not sure what you mean abut their CMD's being too high you need to remember how a number of CM work
Any CM that uses a weapon Adds any bonuses from that Weapon So for Trip, Disarm/Sunder (or any i forgot) that use a weapon at lvl 10 or so a Fighter can easily get +24-26
Any Magic Bonuses to hit heroism/bless/good hope/bard help CMB
So your HAsted, Bard Buffed Fighter with Greater Drag Is pretty good for his Bonus.
Big Stuff with huge strengths can be a problem but its not out of sorts.
@Lyrax & Mojo:
Food for thought, you two bring up some good points. I guess the real key to pulling off CMs successfully is to choose your targets wisely.
Mojo: when you say that a weapon adds its bonuses to Trip, Disarm & Sunder, I assume you mean masterwork/magic bonuses? Not stuff like Weapon Focus, right?
Thanks for the info guys!
@Lyrax & Mojo:Food for thought, you two bring up some good points. I guess the real key to pulling off CMs successfully is to choose your targets wisely.
Mojo: when you say that a weapon adds its bonuses to Trip, Disarm & Sunder, I assume you mean masterwork/magic bonuses? Not stuff like Weapon Focus, right?
Thanks for the info guys!
Weapon focus is added also.
Theres nothing wrong with CMs as long as they can be made as part of an attack or even better- for free (in the case of Shieldslam and Charge Through feats.)
I've built shield slam fighters and rangers and Pallys and, once buffed, haven't had issues getting it to work.
You have to remember, CMs are for mooks.
Charge through is great on a cavalier's mount.
Just about any CM works on a Str Surge Barbarian (Bugger the CM feat- Between rage, reckless abandon, Str Surge, Surprise Accuracy you should get any CM to stick, just eat the AOO)
As for tripping, it's not best, prone is. They suffer AC and attack penalties, chew thier move standing and provoke AOO to get up.
But you don't have to trip to go that- Overrun or Bullrushing into a wall work.
if you over rub by I think 5 or more the target is prone
@Lyrax & Mojo:Food for thought, you two bring up some good points. I guess the real key to pulling off CMs successfully is to choose your targets wisely.
Mojo: when you say that a weapon adds its bonuses to Trip, Disarm & Sunder, I assume you mean masterwork/magic bonuses? Not stuff like Weapon Focus, right?
Thanks for the info guys!
Every bonus to "hit" adds to the CMB unless specific for a weapon that cannot be part of the attack (a melee weapon enhancement for bull rush).
This is why if well played the only limitation is the size (too small limitation IMHO).
Some fighter can reach gianormous CMD too vs speicif maneuvers.
The barbarian streght surge or a quickened true strike (magus fits well) can do miracles, even without a 17+ level cleric.
(Bugger the CM feat- Between rage, reckless abandon, Str Surge, Surprise Accuracy you should get any CM to stick, just eat the AOO)
If you are hit by the target, you take the damage normally and apply that amount as a penalty to the attack roll to perform the maneuver.
Uh... no thanks, I'm not taking a -20 or more penalty to my attempt.
Grapple is good at neutralizing spellcasters a lot of times - barring THAT spell.
ok, im thick, which spell? unless its FOM?
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ok, im thick, which spell? unless its FOM?
Grapple is good at neutralizing spellcasters a lot of times - barring THAT spell.
I assume he's talking about Dimension Door, which is basically the only way a mage without Defensive Combat Training is going to get out of a grapple from anyone who would bother grappling in the first place.
Indeed, the size limitation is typically all that matters on the Trip maneuver. It's a shame that Trip is really the only one that dramatically increases in effectiveness, and only then because you can use weapons for it, which means Focus + enhancement + Fighter Weapon Training, etc. Very frustrating.
If you are hit by the target, you take the damage normally and apply that amount as a penalty to the attack roll to perform the maneuver.
Uh... no thanks, I'm not taking a -20 or more penalty to my attempt.
A smarter approach is to goad your victim into using his Attack of Opportunity on something else. Get your team's mage to have their summoned critter go for a grapple, or ask the party's High-AC cork to walk a lap around your chosen victim. Once he's taken his shot, the rest of the party is free to abuse him, tripping, disarming, or dirty tricking their little hearts out.
(Of course, this approach isn't suitable for monks, dextrous polearm fighters, or others with Combat Reflexes)
I assume he's talking about Dimension Door, which is basically the only way a mage without Defensive Combat Training is going to get out of a grapple from anyone who would bother grappling in the first place.ok, im thick, which spell? unless its FOM?
Grapple is good at neutralizing spellcasters a lot of times - barring THAT spell.
cant be that cos DD dont get you out of grapples anymore
the concentration DC is insane Grappling or Pinned: The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell.
....For the most part i agree with the OP, trip is the best CM. Its ok to grapple spellusers, but grappling other stuff isnt clever very often
When folks talk about weapons adding to your combat maneuvers, I think they are referring most frequently to the weapons that grand bonuses to specific maneuvers.
The ranseur, for example, grants +2 on disarm. The guisarme grants a +2 on trip attempts.
Guisarme doesn't grant +2 on Trip attempts.
I believe RAI is that any weapon-specific attack bonuses apply to Combat Maneuvers if said weapon has the appropriate quality. This means that Trip and Disarm both can benefit from weapon focus, weapon training, and weapon enhancement bonuses. I'd argue that weapons that grant benefits to Sunder attempts should also gain those same weapon-specific bonuses.
Every weapon grants its specific bonuses [weapon focus, enhancement to attack, heirloom, etc] on sunder attempts.
Whether or not a combat maneuver benefits from these attack roll bonuses depends on whether or not you make the combat maneuver using the weapon. For trip and disarm, you can only do this using weapons with the appropriate quality. You can sunder with every weapon.
Applicable rules text:
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver.
Play to a classes strengths.
Barbs should use Knockdown/Str Surge
Fighters should actually take the relevant feats.
Cavs give Charge Through to thier horse. Or burn their bonus/regular feats on Sword/Shield TWF and bash them against a wall (One of their teamwork feats can also help)
Rangerscan select a wolf buddy, who at 7 becomes large, trips for free as part of a bite. Flank, menacing weapon and bonded companion/animal growth spell keep wolfie relevant as you level. He also gets your favored enemy bonus.
Have a Fighter Barbarian in our group who specializes in over-run.
His feats are:
Improved Overrun
Greater Overrun
Charge Through
Combat Reflexes
Power Attack
Great Cleave
With the Barbarian Rage powers of:
Overbearing Advance
Overbearing Onslaught
So... When he RAGES and charges an opponent in a large group -- targetting the guy in the MIDDLE of the group -- he gets a free Overrun attack (Charge Through)
He overruns the first guy, stomping on the first guy (Overbearing Onslaught) for damage (+Power Attack) and invoking an AoO (Greater Overrun), so the guy gets a swing of the axe, too.
He then Overruns the NEXT guy in line (Overbearing Advance) at a -2 and repeats the stomp AND another AoO (Combat Reflexes)
This continues until he gets to his target, at which point he is in the middle of the group and he gets his attack...
Power Attack Great Cleave FTW
Sometimes it gets bungled up by the slowly accumulated negatives to his BAB and CMB, but when it works perfectly it is a thing of BEAUTY!
Have a Fighter Barbarian in our group who specializes in over-run.
His feats are:
Improved Overrun
Greater Overrun
Charge Through
Combat Reflexes
Power Attack
Great CleaveWith the Barbarian Rage powers of:
Overbearing Advance
Overbearing OnslaughtSo... When he RAGES and charges an opponent in a large group -- targetting the guy in the MIDDLE of the group -- he gets a free Overrun attack (Charge Through)
He overruns the first guy, stomping on the first guy (Overbearing Onslaught) for damage (+Power Attack) and invoking an AoO (Greater Overrun), so the guy gets a swing of the axe, too.
He then Overruns the NEXT guy in line (Overbearing Advance) at a -2 and repeats the stomp AND another AoO (Combat Reflexes)
This continues until he gets to his target, at which point he is in the middle of the group and he gets his attack...Power Attack Great Cleave FTW
Sometimes it gets bungled up by the slowly accumulated negatives to his BAB and CMB, but when it works perfectly it is a thing of BEAUTY!
This is probably the first time I've ever wanted to play a barbarian. Thank you for that. :D
EDIT: You left Cleave off your list, making this an 13th-level build, 11th if you are human.
Have a Fighter Barbarian in our group who specializes in over-run.
So... When he RAGES and charges an opponent in a large group -- targetting the guy in the MIDDLE of the group -- he gets a free Overrun attack (Charge Through)
He overruns the first guy, stomping on the first guy (Overbearing Onslaught) for damage (+Power Attack) and invoking an AoO (Greater Overrun), so the guy gets a swing of the axe, too.
He then Overruns the NEXT guy in line (Overbearing Advance) at a -2 and repeats the stomp AND another AoO (Combat Reflexes)
This continues until he gets to his target, at which point he is in the middle of the group and he gets his attack...Power Attack Great Cleave FTW
Sometimes it gets bungled up by the slowly accumulated negatives to his BAB and CMB, but when it works perfectly it is a thing of BEAUTY!
the problem is this doesn't work. charge through has specific requirements. you can only go past one guy for charge through. the whole thing works fine as an overrun you just cannot charge through if you plan to over run more than one guy.
though you could argue the Barbadian stuff changes charge through when it changes over run. all I'n all it's a character I've considered playing but haven't had a chance fo.
*looks at thread title*
Hydras.
They exist. And need to be sundered.
*wanders off*
They don't anymore actually
What am I missing? How do these other Combat Maneuvers compete with Trip?
Your missing the part were people make choices based off of things other than what is the most "effective"
The spell was Freedom of Movements.
A definitively not fixed 3.5 spell.
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Is it just me, or is Trip the most powerful and useful Combat Maneuver? Sure, Disarm and Sunder are nice, but there's a whole host of enemies that are immune. Virtually anything immune to Trip is also [effectively] immune to Sunder and Disarm as well.
As for the rest (Bullrush, Overrun, Dirty Trick, Drag, etc), they're all so circumstantial as to not be worth spending feats on. And without spending feats on them, they're pretty much not worth using unless you've got reach on your target.
What am I missing? How do these other Combat Maneuvers compete with Trip?
Because sometimes you want to play a Landschnekt and you just have to have sunder...