Catfolk Scout Questions (Scout's Charge + Claw Pounce + Sprinter = 8O)

I wanted to get you guy's opinion on some rules that I'm afriad are being misinterperated at my table.

First this...

My interperatation is that this increases the base speed. Meaning when running, charging, or withdrawing, the character is treated as having a speed of 40. So when he withdraws or charges he can move 80 ft, and when running he can move at 160.

Next issue...

The problem is that combined with

it seems like you can make two sneak attacks per round while moving double your speed and denying your target their dex bonus.

Basically one of my players had a concept for playing a Catfolk rogue who's an assassin who basically hunts his targets like a hunting cat would. To his credit it has taken 14 levels for this build to pan out and for the first few levels it was a pretty bumpy road.

Between

and and of course Claw Pounce and Scout's Charge he has two claw attacks that do 1d8 and can dish out 2 sneak attacks at 7d8 a peice, and treating 1s and 2s as 3s while charging thanks to and and deals 7 points of bleed damage per round using He can even deal two doses of poison using

He finally hit 14 level a couple of nights ago and I didn't realize just how nasty this buil was until at the end of the session the catfolk rogue (Tash) and a Aldori swordlord 7/duelist 7 (Sianne) had a little fight. Basically Tash had just hit 14 and finnished his build but it was late and the session had ended. He wanted to try out the build he'd spent almost a month putting together so his buddy Sianne agreed to an Ooc duel. It was a boodbath. Having previously purchased Catfolk Exemplar a second time he was able to increase his running speed

and being the proud owner of a pair of boots of striding and springing he was charging at a speed of 120 and running at a speed of 240. So he got a suprise attack + poison from one claw (they were simulating a scenario where she was his mark and he was hunting her, he out steathed her perception), double sneak attack next round + poison from the other claw, a full run action the following round giving Sianne an Aoo (big deal), the on the last round a made charge dealing two sneak attacks... and that was it. He killed her. Basically in 3 round (plus the one suprise round) Tash was able to move 360 feet and deal out 35d8 worth of sneak attack damage (treating 1s and 2s as 3s). Sianne was able to get in one full-attack and one Aoo before being mowed down by a chainsaw with a movement speed, not to mention she spent the entire fight being denied her dex bonus between failing initiative and Scout's Charge.

I figure something has to be wrong if Tash can pretty much murder a fighter/duelist (she's specialized in one on one fights against living opponents) of his same CR, and in a situation where she actually had an opportunity to defend herself. So is this OP? Or was it just a case of Paper vs. Scissors?

We haven't met up since so I haven't had a chance to if this build is the encounter killer that I suspect it might be. It's just that that Scout's Charge give him the opportunity to deal out crazy damage if he hits with both attacks. It basically comes down to whether or not Scout's Charge and Claw Pounce can allow him to do 2 sneak attacks on a charge. I would hate to nerf it seeing how he spent so much patient work on this build, but Im afraid it could be a gamebreaker.

Any thoughts?

Scout charge allow to deliver the sneak attack but do not deny the targer dex bonus. the flat-fotted wording is to allow certain abilityes that do not trigger with only flanking.

By the way if the catfolk is using natural weapon he do not gain any iteratives.

Scout charge allow to deliver the sneak attack but do not deny the targer dex bonus. the flat-fotted wording is to allow certain abilityes that do not trigger with only flanking.

Otherwise the situation seems legal to me.

Okay! That would have made a huge differance seeing how half of the Aldori swordlord/Duelist's AC goes away when she's denied her Dex bonus.

You happen to have a player who has actually set himself up to get the full benefit of a rogue.

You can find more posts than you can read about how rogues suck, etc.

This particular build is fantastic.

However, it doesn't work in difficult terrain, (can't charge) in close quarters with allies in the way (can't charge).

If I understand you correctly, he hit her from stealth with a partial charge (which would give 2 full sneak attacks from claw pounce, but only allow you to move single speed in a surprise round charge), then took the AoO to run away, charged back in for another double claw sneak?

It seems like the build does exactly what is intended, and is right in line with the typical power level at 14.

If it seems like a lot of dice to you, they have basically built every feat/class feature into it, so they should get a lot of dice. (lots of dice are still less damage than say... a Barbarian or normal fighter would do at this level, but it seems like more since you roll more.)

His minimum per attack is 22, max is 64, x 2 attacks (min 44 max 108). Seems like a lot, but can only be done every other round.

Lets see how he compares against other 14th level characters.

A Sorcerer at the same level would do 4d6+12 x 3 as a touch attack (minimum 48 max 108), a beast totem barbarian would get around d6+20 x 4 (min 84 max 104), greatsword Barbarian 2d6+30 x3 (min 93 max 126), an archer would get 2d6+15 x5 (min 85 max 135). All 4 of these would have much higher chance to hit, (from either touch AC or much better BAB).

It's a concept build, that is actually effective in certain situations. It's good, but not really powerful.

By the way if the catfolk is using natural weapon he do not gain any iteratives.

By the way what are iteratives?

Nicos wrote:

Scout charge allow to deliver the sneak attack but do not deny the targer dex bonus. the flat-fotted wording is to allow certain abilityes that do not trigger with only flanking.

Otherwise the situation seems legal to me.

Okay! That would have made a huge differance seeing how half of the Aldori swordlord/Duelist's AC goes away when she's denied her Dex bonus.

Do not forget that the catfolk is using natural weapon he do not gain any iteratives, so two claw attacks and that is all.

However, it doesn't work in difficult terrain, (can't charge) in close quarters with allies in the way (can't charge).

This is true, and up to this point about 1 in 3 of my encounters contain difficult terrain althoug not always the entire map.

If I understand you correctly, he hit her from stealth with a partial charge (which would give 2 full sneak attacks from claw pounce, but only allow you to move single speed in a surprise round charge), then took the AoO to run away, charged back in for another double claw sneak?

No, actaully he hit her w/ 1 attack in the suprise round, then made inititiatve landed two in the first round. Round two he sprinted back, she Aoo'd then ran after him but only got half way (120 feet), round three he charged with Claw Pounce and annihalated her w/ two sneak attacks (however we were under the misconception that she was denied her Dex and Int bonuses to AC, both of thse attacks actaully might have missed.)

Lets see how he compares against other 14th level characters.

A Sorcerer at the same level would do 4d6+12 x 3 as a touch attack (minimum 48 max 108), a beast totem barbarian would get around d6+20 x 4 (min 84 max 104), greatsword Barbarian 2d6+30 x3 (min 93 max 126), an archer would get 2d6+15 x5 (min 85 max 135). All 4 of these would have much higher chance to hit, (from either touch AC or much better BAB).

It's a concept build, that is actually effective in certain situations. It's good, but not really powerful.

Yeah I guess you're right. It just seemed pretty nasty because he get's two attacks at his full attack bonus, which I believe is about 22 when charging and thanks to a combination of

and he subjects himself to suprisingly little risk using this tactic.

But yeah, I guess it isn't that bad. I was just a little alarming watching it in action the first time.

Mal-Duroth wrote:

Nicos wrote:

Scout charge allow to deliver the sneak attack but do not deny the targer dex bonus. the flat-fotted wording is to allow certain abilityes that do not trigger with only flanking.

Otherwise the situation seems legal to me.

Okay! That would have made a huge differance seeing how half of the Aldori swordlord/Duelist's AC goes away when she's denied her Dex bonus.

Do not forget that the catfolk is using natural weapon he do not gain any iteratives, so two claw attacks and that is all.

Yeah but it's actually a great tradeoff for a rogue once I looked into it. The most attacks a rogue will ever get is 3 at a progressive -5 penalty. With the natural weapon he only get's two, but at his full bonus for both! Plus if he ever goes the multi-attack route he can get his three weapon attacks (at the proper level) and still get one claw attack... and he could all three on a charge covering 120 feet!

But it's ggod to know about the Dex bonus thing, thank you.

Just a note: With Dragon Style (2 more feats) he can charge in difficult terrain and through allies. So he still isnt as buffed out (featwise) as he could be.

Regarding charge+pounce in the surprise round the Rogue can make two attacks while pouncing even in a surprise round. This was recently the subject of a FAQ.

Regarding Scout's Charge, I think it does remove the dex bonus. "as if the target were flat-footed" seems to me that for that attack all rules for flat-footed apply. However, I can see this going either way. Perhaps it should be the subject of a FAQ.

- Gauss

Just be glad this catfolk didn't do this build with Scout Ninja instead of Scout Rogue. With Greater Invisibility things get even deadlier.

Regarding Scout's Charge, I think it does remove the dex bonus. "as if the target were flat-footed" seems to me that for that attack all rules for flat-footed apply.

The full clause is, "[...] her attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target were flat-footed."

So the condition is only applied to the damage roll, not the attack roll. I think it would probably have more general language if the intent was to deny the dex bonus to AC, or specifically state that.

Like I said, I can see it going either way. The way I stated my opinion was that it was not a certainty.

My rationale regarding it only applied to the damage roll is that leaves a huge question as to what does and does not apply. It is contrary to how Flat-footed works. Either you do, or do not count as flat-footed. There are no half measures. So, this could be an exception, or it could be bad wording. Hence my thinking it could be FAQ worthy.

Note: this debate came up in my own gaming group months ago. We saw that it could go either way.

- Gauss

Gauss wrote:

Regarding Scout's Charge, I think it does remove the dex bonus. "as if the target were flat-footed" seems to me that for that attack all rules for flat-footed apply.

The full clause is, "[...] her attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target were flat-footed."

So the condition is only applied to the damage roll, not the attack roll. I think it would probably have more general language if the intent was to deny the dex bonus to AC, or specifically state that.

I think you're right Highbad, I think "as if" is key. It would porbably read something like "target is flatfooted against this attack" if the intention was for the target to actaully lose her dex bonus.

Flat-Footed: A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, unable to react normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.

Scout's Charge (Ex): At 4th level, whenever a scout makes a charge, her attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target were flat-footed. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability. This ability replaces uncanny dodge.

Ok... so here's how the scenario should have played out from the description, provided the rogue used the best options available. (assuming worst case scenario where the flat footed only applies to damage. I don't think that is the way it works, but we'll use that as it's the hardest for the rogue.)

Surprise round: Charge single movement speed (i think 60 ft with all the speed boosts), attack flat-footed AC and get both claw attacks, applying poison if they hit, and 7 points of bleed.

1st round (winning initiative): 2 more claw attacks, at flat-footed AC for full sneak attack.

2nd round: run away, taking the attack of opportunity... although with the massive speed bonus he could have just withdrawn at 120 ft without provoking if that would get him farther than the duelist could keep up, (not metagaming, but if the set up was the duelist was prey he stalked he would know how fast they were).

3rd round: charge/pounce again, targeting regular AC, but getting sneak attack damage if they hit.

Honestly I'm surprised the Catfolk didn't have Rending Claws factored into his build for even more bonus damage dice. It still works with the Catfolk Scout Pounce mechanic perfectly.

(I have a Catfolk Ninja with this exact build. It takes 16 levels to achieve it's full capacity, but when it does, it's frightening.)