WotW: A Knot of Thorns The First Parchment (Inactive)

Game Master Xzaral

See, I'm playing Haruk as inherently better than pretty much everybody not LE, moreso if they worship somebody other than Asmodeus. Thus, he does not feel he owes it to them to follow through on any deals made because they are made with people beneath him. He's a supremacist, do you really think an old school member of the KKK or Hilter's Nazi party would care if they made a deal with a black person or Jew and then turned right around and did the opposite??

When he makes a deal or pact with somebody he considers worthy, he will honor it. But until then, he says what he thinks others wants to hear, but does not care if he needs to break the agreement, if breaking it gets him further than keeping it.

I feel like four of us just made points you should consider as to how your playing Haruk (including the GM) and you just kinda ignored or glossed over our posts. I hope that isn't the case. I do know that at least two or three of us have had reservations about the way in which your playing him but we were being polite or didn't want to cause conflict.

Your actual concept and alignment seem to be inconsistent with how you want to play the character. You pitched a Ra's al Ghul and arrived as the Joker :). Theres probably room for a character like that in our group, but if he continues to claim he is an Asmodean and has a LE alignment while casually disregarding obligations and promises he's made and acting more like a charismatic conman who is completely happy to burn and slay those he just made implicit promises to not harm, there is only going to be more conflict down the line.

Haruk's word is rapidly appearing worthless and his complete lack of any commitment to what he says is already troubling Alazandaru, IC. As it is, i'm already looking like i'm going to have to force my character to team up with yours just because we're both PC's- whereas the others he's already actually having some kind of attachment to and/or developing some respect.

TLDR- Evil for evils sake isn't really what any of us are about and I don't believe anyone here believes Haruk is a Lawful Evil worshipper of Asmodeus. Evil, certainly. Lawful, not a chance, IMHO.

Before this turns into some kind of slogfest, it would be nice if the player of Beatrix could also weigh in.

You do realize that the last statement includes nothing about not killing the man, right? I deliberately left that out. The rest of you decided to not kill him. Just because I asked if he would like to die like the rest or not, doesn't mean we couldn't kill him after.

But that's not really here nor there. I am playing LE to my personal interpretation. I am not some divinely empowered character, so I run no risk of losing my abilities. And I am not invoking my lord's name in each of these bargains. Thus, the King of Hell or his minions will not be overly displeased with me for "tarnishing their faith".

A few of you have said you are playing up your Lawful side moreso than your Evil. Good for you. I am playing my Evil side more. I chose LE because it is the alignment closest to my character's way of thinking, as is the hierarchy and goals of Hell. I follow the laws and deals as long as they bring me closer to my goals, but I will not just waltz through life blatantly ignoring them, doing whatever I will, regardless of consequence. I do not seek destruction for destruction sake, but I have no problem killing or breaking my "word" if doing so enables me to "win" in the end.

Nor do I seek the utter ruin of the universe, attempting to lay low everything man or Divinely made. Instead, I wish to simply replace what the current norm with that of Hell.

Finally, like so many on these boards including some of the Paizo peoples, and on other gaming sites I frequent, I see alignments as a guide to behavior, not a mandate nor a set in stone system of beliefs, unchanging no matter what.

We've been stuck on this same part of the escape for awhile now. I do not personally know just how many guards are left, or what they'll try to do to stop us. My suggestion of hostages is because I am sick of just sitting around. I want to gtfo and move on with this game. Also, how is that everybody seems fine with mass slaughter, but hostage taking is a weakness?

I feel like four of us just made points you should consider as to how your playing Haruk (including the GM) and you just kinda ignored or glossed over our posts. I hope that isn't the case. I do know that at least two or three of us have had reservations about the way in which your playing him but we were being polite or didn't want to cause conflict.

Your actual concept and alignment seem to be inconsistent with how you want to play the character. You pitched a Ra's al Ghul and arrived as the Joker :). Theres probably room for a character like that in our group, but if he continues to claim he is an Asmodean and has a LE alignment while casually disregarding obligations and promises he's made and acting more like a charismatic conman who is completely happy to burn and slay those he just made implicit promises to not harm, there is only going to be more conflict down the line.

Haruk's word is rapidly appearing worthless and his complete lack of any commitment to what he says is already troubling Alazandaru, IC. As it is, i'm already looking like i'm going to have to force my character to team up with yours just because we're both PC's- whereas the others he's already actually having some kind of attachment to and/or developing some respect.

TLDR- Evil for evils sake...

I did not just gloss of or ignored your posts. I am trying to explain my position.

Haruk is a sorcerer, not a cleric or paladin or anything else like that. He can therefore interpret Asmodeoean tenets a bit more openly than they can. His word appears worthless because he's making deals with worthless people.

To be honest, I am trying to do something useful and inline with my characters abilities. I've already tried to Charm a guard, but you guys jumped all over that, shot it down. Which by the way, feels awesome and I want you to thank you all for destroying the main aspect of my character.

Whenever I've played this character before, Charm was always handled a bit more favorably for the PC. Now granted, the particular use, in time and place, was not perhaps the best. But the discussion afterwards made me feel like I wasn't ever going to get much use out of the spell. Which again, is the core of the character.

Now I'm stuck with ray of frosting, since the lone crossbow we came across has been taken by another PC. Or I can attempt to LIE my way out of situations, except you all seem to think I'm making promises. I'm lying for the most part, you know a deliberate telling of falsehoods?? But now I can't even do that, cuz that's too chaotic.

SO tell me, what do I have left? I feel like I can't charm anybody, ray of frost does 3 damage at most, and if I lie I'm going to become an Abyssal worshiper...

I'm turning in for the night and hopefully, when I check the thread tomorrow, I will feel less incredulous over the passive aggressive tones (and frankly, how defensive your being when you initiated this discussion) of your posts and will be able to respond calmly. Night all.

I'll second Alazandaru's call for Beatrix to let us know what her gut feel is at present.

On Charm Person:
None of us destroyed your character concept - you built it off a false perception of what the spell can actually achieve. So please don't blame us for that. Similarly, when we highlighted the issue we did so without condemnation and requested King Markadian adjudicate on the issue - and he did. I don't like the implication that you made that we intentionally harpooned your character - as we clearly didn't.

On the Crossbow:
At no point either IC or OOC did you actually ask Alazandaru to pass it to you. You could have asked IC - but you didn't. Had you asked for it IC, then Alazandaru most likely would have agreed to pass it over to you.

On the lack of Contributing:
There are many ways that you can contribute. Intimidate to demoralize, Bluff to misdirect and confuse, Aid Another to give others bonuses, Ray of Frost is still a ranged touch attack and adds to damage (note it dropped a guard in the last combat).

Bostarg has yet to swing a sword, but I still feel like he is contributing in his own way. I know he's a passenger for the escape, and is actually intentionally witholding information (location of the rendezvous) and items (the rest of the veil) so that you're forced to take him with you.

Regardless of alignment discussions, let's focus on the Asmodeus aspect of things for a moment. The viewpoint you have presented thus far is a sepratist view on his beliefs, not mainstream religion as I've seen it presented.

Asmodeans DO consider themselves superior to others. That is actually why they can make contracts. You simply make contracts that do not work well for the ones signing it. Bluff can be used to mislead and misdirect what you intend. As an example, when the guard was locked up, a statement of "Surrender your weapons and I can ensure you that I will not harm you." would fall in line with this. You will not harm him, but if you wanted to kill him, there's a whole party members able to do it still.

As another example borrowing from your own earlier statement, an Asmodean supremacist wouldn't go back on their word. They would instead use their promises to their advantage. Try to enact laws where those supressed wouldn't have the power to act in the first place, often by manipulating the ones they are trying to oppress, "Don't worry you half-orcs, vote me for mayor and I will make sure you all get what you deserve!" Open-ended statements that either promise nothing or promise the opposite of what he's intending to say.

It is true you are not a divine caster. You are not going to lose any abilities, class powers, or anything like that by playing from your viewpoint. That is not the issue. It's the manner in which you're presenting your faith. This does open up RP possibilities if you would like to pursue them. As stated you have what I would call a sepratist viewpoint of the Asmodean church. Perhaps you fall more in line with standard dogma. There's also the possibility of altering perspective and state (in character) that the stress of your capture has affected you, shook up your faith so to speak, and as you work towards freedom you regain it (even evil people can 'fall' so to speak).

What I am asking is that you take a look at your views of the Asmodeus church. Specifically this one line:

I do not seek destruction for destruction sake, but I have no problem killing or breaking my "word" if doing so enables me to "win" in the end.

This very sentence is the opposite of what the Asmodean church is about. Breaking your word is a sign of weakness, and winning that way is not a victory that Asmodeus will reward.

I'm just going to apologise for the extremely cranky nature of my last post, which is obviously not helping things. I'm in the middle of what I call a 'sleep reset' where i'm trying to fix my wayward sleep pattern by forcing myself to sleep later and later until i'm sleeping at a normal time again. This means I am sleep deprived and highly irritable just before I go to bed so I apologise for allowing that to affect my post.

As for Charm Person, I think I even took the time to mention that unless we knew exactly what you were doing in character, we'd likely inadvertently disrupt the spell- Here, but you made no effort to let Beatrix know that the charm had succeeded and then blamed her for offering him a chance to break the spell, despite a clear mention that you'd know to let us know it succeeded. Charm Person would actually be very useful in certain situations- like if we get our hands on Blackerly.

Oh, I admit my use earlier wasn't the best, and said as much above.

It was just the conversation about the spell later, which made feel it was going to be useless to cast it. I'm not saying that was everybody's intent, but that's exactly how it came across.

I'm glad to see the GM has a least a sort of grasp on what I've been sayin. Haruk's never had official training in the teachings of Asmodeus. At least not in a true fashion. His town most likely had a different view on the chuch based on its history.

Wow, I missed all sorts of fun last night. I think - honestly - the main problem stemmed from offering to spare the guard in the first place. Telling them "throw down your weapons" seems like a very "good-alignment" thing to do, instead of just killing them outright. I've been trying to be very careful in my wording of the kinds of things I say in combat for that very reason - sticking to intimidating, telling them they're going to die, etc instead of calling for surrender.

In the future, avoiding the issue of hostages by just killing them first would help avoid a lot of this "what do we do know" kind of thing - and while that kind of interaction is great in a good-aligned group (I've seen it in every single kingmaker campaign and it always plays out differently) it's just not something that evil types should be worrying about.

All that said, there's plenty of historical and literary examples of supposedly lawful organizations telling people "surrender or be shot" and then lining them up for the firing squad for their crimes immediately after. Such an act strikes me as REALLY evil, but under the right circumstances could still be considered lawful.

-The player of Beatrix

So....where'd everybody go?

Just to continue the discussion, Monkeygod, if your character does have a skewed perception of Asmodeus at present, which is not something that was originally discussed, how do you plan for it to go? Remember that keeping your word is kind of a big deal with him, which is one of the big concerns I have at present. Would you have a desire to come to understand more about what it means to be a true Asmodean, or are you interested in pursuing a different path? Character development is a great thing, but if I can't tell or don't know how you plan to develop it, the adventure may not necessarily be able to cope.

Also on the part of playing an Enchanter type character, just a heads up that it can actually be pretty challenging. Often times it'll involve setting things up, using skills and allies appropriately, setting the scene. It is quite a great deal of fun when you see things come together, but even simply casting Dominate Person isn't the best bet. Implant the ideas into people's heads, confuse them, make them believe what you're saying is truth. A spell can be an initial opening or a final push, but it's usually more involved than that. And Daze is probably a better offensive spell for your level, though don't knock Ray of Frost. Damage is damage and Touch AC is WAY easier to hit most of the time.

Wow, I missed all sorts of fun last night. I think - honestly - the main problem stemmed from offering to spare the guard in the first place. Telling them "throw down your weapons" seems like a very "good-alignment" thing to do, instead of just killing them outright. I've been trying to be very careful in my wording of the kinds of things I say in combat for that very reason - sticking to intimidating, telling them they're going to die, etc instead of calling for surrender.

In the future, avoiding the issue of hostages by just killing them first would help avoid a lot of this "what do we do know" kind of thing - and while that kind of interaction is great in a good-aligned group (I've seen it in every single kingmaker campaign and it always plays out differently) it's just not something that evil types should be worrying about.

There are situations where taking prisoners is not a "good-alignment" thing, paritularly when it involves the pain and the ouch and the torture for information. And believe me, Diplomacy is just as useful for evil people as for good people. Look at politicians and lawyers (I kid!).

And remember that Asmodeus isn't all about the wholesale slaughter. He has no compunctions on killing as needed, but slaughtering the prison for the sake of slaughtering the prison isn't his style. Slaughtering the prison to send a message to Talingarde on the other hand is.

All that said, there's plenty of historical and literary examples of supposedly lawful organizations telling people "surrender or be shot" and then lining them up for the firing squad for their crimes immediately after. Such an act strikes me as REALLY evil, but under the right circumstances could still be considered lawful.

-The player of Beatrix

That's highly situation dependent. Ordering people to surrender so they can be put on trial is a lawful act, even if it's by firing squad. Heck that can be a good action if it's viscious killers or even demons/devils being put to rest. It could also be Evil if it's the secret police nabbing a bunch of activists for the purpose of sending a message to other activists, and that could also be considered Chaotic. But that's going into an alignment arguement and not one I'm too keen on pursuing.

Bostarg is looking forward to engaging the challenge of being a rabble rouser and inciter of discontent when it comes to some later parts of the AP that are coming. There's a reason why he took the evidence of Blackerly's guilt ;)

Gotta read something first,
Will get back to you......

Bostarg is looking forward to engaging the challenge of being a rabble rouser and inciter of discontent when it comes to some later parts of the AP that are coming. There's a reason why he took the evidence of Blackerly's guilt ;)

I totally love it. I can't wait to see what happens with that. Just killing him would be discouraging. Ruining him utterly would be a fantastic victory! MWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

If we get out of the prison and he's still alive, then sure we can ruin him. But in my mind the papers can be twisted to an equally interesting tangent / conspiracy theory even if he perishes... but we need the get out of prison bit first ;)

Interesting. I'm intrigued. Sounds like fun! :)

I too can't wait to see what antics the group of you work up after getting out of here.

Just a heads up that this weekend I will be attending a local anime convention to chaperone my youngest sister. My ability to post will be spotty.

Gotta say, was very dubious about Morthos not joining us upstairs- didn't think Bostarg could get into much trouble with a hefty barricade between him and the enemy and an Ogre bodyguard :P. Hope Grumblejack manages a decent strength check, or alternatively you could hack your way through with weapons.

If I moved things along there too quickly I apologize. I'm still adjusting to the pacing of running these games. If there's any issues, let me know.

HA! Not at all, I just slept for 12 hours and woke up around 1pm EST.

No complaints from me. I like a lot to reply to and can retcon when necessary.

Moving over to OOC to avoid crowding gameply.

Actually I prefer if you bring things like that up to me. Criticism is just one way to let me know if there's something I can improve. If you, or anyone else, feels I'm showing favoritism, either towards an NPC or even another player, please feel free to point it out either in thread, or preferable PM. Rules related or not. If someone's not enjoying themselves, I'd rather fix it.

I'll always bring such things up, don't worry ;). Its really not a big issue to me I think i've come across differently to how I intended.

Yea, sorry if I was crowding IG.

I know I previewed, so I either just missed your post GM, or we posted too closely together.

As my spoiler showed, it was from 3.5. There's been plenty of times I've made the same mistake, both as a player and GM, and I'm sure I'll make it plenty more times, especially with something that doesn't get used all that often.

Hells, my biggest problem is remembering all the official rules, especially in combat, as my IRL group played a little fast n loose with rules in 3.5. There's a bunch I've not known about or forgotten, etc.

Anything that needs to be added to the loot pile, let me know. I've added the 30 gold from Blackerly to the loot pile. If y'all want to divide it now just say so and I'll take it off. I'm gonna be adding the chain shirt back and I guess the longsword also. Won't get much for the sword but it's something. It can be dropped if y'all would rather. No biggie to me either way.

I think we should grab as much of the armor and weapons as we can reasonably carry - sale value will add up for this quantity of goods.

As far as claiming equipment, Bostarg just has the singular oversized (for his hands) cudgel and doesn't want / need anything from the warden or sergeant... at least until we see what's in his chambers.

We need appraise checks from everyone to get the value of that ring.

If either of our spell-casters have Detect Magic castable, we need that done too. Appraise check can be made untrained so everyone with Int 10 or more is worth rolling for.

A search of Richter's library reveals the majority of the books to be useless. The most common items in the library are the “penny dreadfuls”. These poorly printed compilations of lurid tales range across the whole gamut of adventure genres. However, the one genre over-represented is bawdy tales featuring amply endowed young maidens in grave peril. This collection is of no real value.

The real treasures are on one particular shelf in the library. Fifty-five books covering a vast array of subjects, starting from Magical Theory to Astronomy. The average value of these books would be 3gp a pop.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Continuing upstairs to the third floor finds both the Warden's office and his personal bedroom. A thorough search of both reveals a variety of items to be found.

In a drawer in his office, you find a true treasure, the Warden's spellbook.

There is also a detailed map of the Old Moors.

Inside his personal room, there is some rich furniture, though taking it would truly be a task, one you do not have time for at present. The warden does possess a fine wardrobe, 5 noble outfits in varying styles (375gp).

A small stury oak chest contains another find. A pristine, not used Alchemy set worth 200gp (40lbs).

A complete search of the tower reveals nothing else of value.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I handwaved a couple locks that needed picking and whatnot. No help comes while searching the tower. At this point, all that's left is the foreward gatehouse. How do you wish to proceed?

It might not be elegant... but there is a certain je ne sais quoi to the thought no?

Besides, Bostarg's got short legs and he's getting tired.... pretty please can he get a piggback ride from Grumblejack?

Morthos, please note that the "Astra Mysterii" has been successfully valued- GM theres no GP value in the spoiler though. Can everyone else please make Appraise checks (or just Intelligence if you don't have ranks in it)- 3 of them each please. Looking for a 20 on any of them. Haruk, you need to make spellcraft checks not just cast detect magic :).

Astra Mysterii? Is this something I should note in the Loot pile?

Also on the appraise checks, just to be clear, the only reason I haven't made appraise checks is because my Intelligence is 8. I promise I'm not being dismissive. :)

Astra Mysterii is the book in the first spoiler, Alazandaru made the appraise check but I don't see a GP value listed for it.

I think at this early stage anyone can claim anything they might actually use and we'll sell the rest later and split it. Once we're actually out of here, we can start to do proper loot divides in future with equal shares.

Gotcha.

Thanks for reposting that Bostarg, did it in the wrong thread (I shouldn't post when just waking up it seems).

Talingarde itself is an island the size of England. Branderscar itself does sit on a small island. The nearest town is about an hour away (Varyston). Outside Branderscar is the Old Moors, an expansive swampy area. Much beyond that will require some Knowledge (Geography) checks.

And Astra Mysterii is 75gp

Man, I gotta say, I love how you throw out all of this...

Bostarg comes back with Grumblejack, the body of Blackerly dragged behind them.

Making a couple assumptions here, but...

Blackerly's Body:
Warden's Body:
Potion from Blackerly Spellcraft DC 16:
Potion from Warden Spellcraft DC 16:
Scroll 1 Spellcraft DC 16:
Scroll 2 Spellcraft DC 16:
Scroll 3 Spellcraft DC 18:
Scroll 4 Spellcraft DC 18:
Dull Grey Stone Spellcraft DC 27:
Class Ring Appraise DC 20:

That sure helps move things along without wondering if we're gonna check this or that. That's pretty standard stuff of what a party is going to do anyhow, so, keep rockin', bud! :)

Like the way you run the game. Good stuff, dude.

Much appreciated, Javell. I just take what I see other GMs do, and try to piece and match what works and what doesn't, adapting to the party. Comments like that let's me know someone liked it, and I'll try to do so in the future.

Sorry guys - I should have given you a heads up but I'm on the road most of this weekend with limited access to internet. Feel free to DMPC me as necessary.

Between the three games of this I run (the two here, and one table top), that toad is lethal. Each time he's hit and maxed damage in the first round.

That is some nasty damage for a toad. I'm like, "Dannnnnnnnnng!!!" That's one brutal frog.

It actually had to be max damage to drop Alazandaru. Typical.

I was under the impression Alazandaru is not actually swallowed yet- just grappled in the toad's mouth.

yea, just in mouth.

Oh one more thing, an extra 1 point of damage for Toad. Keep forgetting my trait bonus.

GM, are we able to use pages from the looted spell-book as scrolls? And how are we doing HP?

Edit: Level up is complete in Herolab, just need clarity on those questions to finish.

If rolling- 1d8 ⇒ 8

... I can live with that :P.

Took another level in Rogue, took Combat Trick to gain Martial Weapon Proficiency with the Kukri.

I mostly just reinforced the skills Alazandaru already has, but took some Handle Animal so he can break in his new guard dog.

hp: 1d10 ⇒ 2

ouch. I don't suppose you allow for rerolls on super low hp rolls? Or are we doing average hp?

Just wanted to remind you all, since I myself forgot and looked it up, we each get an extra 2 skill points per level.

Here's how the HP's are rolled:

HP: Max to start. At each level you roll 1/2 your classes HD, and add the other half. So a 1d6 will roll 1d3+3, a 1d10 will roll 1d5+5.

The above was copied and pasted from KM's post in the recruit thread.

HP: 4 + 1d4 ⇒ 4 + (4) = 8 - rest of level up to come.

For loot distribution / split up, the noblemen's clothes can go back on the pile - now that I've been furnished with clothes my size by our hosts I have little need for them.

Which means that Bostarg has currently taken only a cudgel, and the evidence that Blackerly was thieving. (Alazandaru still has the veil at this point).