Hi,
I bought Kingmaker part 1 a while back and today when I looked for part 2, I found out that its out of print, and its selling for 100$ on amazon.
So I was wondering if its in the plans, to re-release old adventures in the same format that the Runelord did?
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Members of the Paizo staff have posted before that they do not currently forsee doing any more hardback compliations of other APs. RotRL was an exception since it was the first independent Paizo AP.
Vic has mentioned that they don't want to compete with themselves, and that lots of folks would not purchase the subscription (which is Paizo's bread and butter) and just wait for the hardcover. I understand and repsect their viewpoint, however, once the APs are out of print - especially for a couple of years, it might just be worth it to do a run. Hell, fund it on Kickstarter - that way you get the capital up front so it's not such a gamble for the company.
Personally, I am a big fan of the compliations. I bought the hardcover of Shackled City, and cannot tell you how much I wish Paizo could persuade WotC to release the rights for Age of Worms and Savage Tide so they could update them to Pathfinder as beautiful hardcover compilations. It'll never happen, but we can wish, can't we?
I'd be thrilled if they would at least do compilations for the AP's that weren't officially Pathfinder - AP's like Second Darkness or Legacy of Fire. Wouldn't be competing with themselves, the AP's are out if print and there would be a huge market for the updated versions.
Except they're not out of print yet. :)
PDFs are always available.
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I do think the 3.5 adventures could use updated versions to Pathfinder, and if that comes in 1 compilation like Rise of the Runelords did, then all the better.
Curse of the Crimson Throne in particular I think would be awesome.
I completely support the Kickstarter idea and I imagine a lot of other folks would as well. I would merrily put up the cash in advance for a high quality, hardback edition of the older APs (updated to the current rules set as required).
EDIT: And maybe some new art? :D
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I kind of understand the stance of Paizo on this matter, in the vein that people wait for trade paperbacks, but on the other hand early APs like Curse of the Crimson Throne are not available anymore and still in 3.5 format. At least those should be updated and compiled, so that we can all be happy under one edition. And because Curse totally rocks and more people should play it. ^^
Kickstarter doesn't address the issue. It's not that they're worried they won't sell any and can't risk the capital, it's that they're worried they'll sell less of the new AP (partly from people choosing a pathfinderised CotCT over the new AP and partly from people saying "I won't buy the six individual instalments, ill buy the compilation").
If that happened to a large degree (it would definitely happen in a few cases), they've suddenly damaged the secret of their success.
The risk just doesn't match the reward. Better for them to make cool, new stuff.
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Kickstarter doesn't address the issue. It's not that they're worried they won't sell any and can't risk the capital, it's that they're worried they'll sell less of the new AP (partly from people choosing a pathfinderised CotCT over the new AP and partly from people saying "I won't buy the six individual instalments, ill buy the compilation").
If that happened to a large degree (it would definitely happen in a few cases), they've suddenly damaged the secret of their success.
The risk just doesn't match the reward. Better for them to make cool, new stuff.
^^This^^
Also, updating Rise of the Runelords to Pathfinder put a big strain on the Paizo staff. Folks there were working longer than normal hours on a product that they had already released and sold 10 years ago. They are staffed to produce what they currently produce.
If you want to get the rest of the Kingmaker books, purchase the PDFs, put them on a thumb drive or CD, and take them down to an office supply store and pay to have them printed and bound. Paizo staff has already said (in other places on the forums) that you can print a copy of your legally owned PDFs for personal use only (which includes running a game from them).
-Aaron
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I must be completely unlike everyone else in the PF market. I absolutely REFUSE to buy an AP for the sole reason that they DON'T come out in compilations. RotRL was my first and only exception because, well - you know.
It just drives me up a wall how much a single AP costs for the amount of pages and material you acquire as opposed to, say, the Core Rulebook itself. I can't justify the cost of it, especially in today's roller-coaster of an economy.
I must be completely unlike everyone else in the PF market. I absolutely REFUSE to buy an AP for the sole reason that they DON'T come out in compilations. RotRL was my first and only exception because, well - you know.
The irony. :/
.I'm sure you're not alone, the trouble is that the market of people who only want to buy compilations probably isnt enough to support the production of them (even if someone were willing to invest the capital required to pay a dozen people plus freelancers for six-nine months prior to release).
I must be completely unlike everyone else in the PF market. I absolutely REFUSE to buy an AP for the sole reason that they DON'T come out in compilations. RotRL was my first and only exception because, well - you know.The irony. :/
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I'm sure you're not alone, the trouble is that the market of people who only want to buy compilations probably isnt enough to support the production of them (even if someone were willing to invest the capital required to pay a dozen people plus freelancers for six-nine months prior to release).
I wonder.
AP's if collected and priced the same would be around $100 - $120 at the price we're currently paying. Almost no one would be able to afford them in one fell swoop like that, so obviously the price would have to be lowered to something a bit more practical, like $40 or $50. I can buy the hardbound Rise of the Runelords compilation for $37.50 on Amazon right now and it was a product a lot of the work had already been done for - if I had to pay for it via subscription today it'd cost me about $96.50 in all, $135.00 with shipping. Annually that's $270.00 for something I should normally be able to buy at a local gaming store for about $80.00...
Using their current business model Paizo might be getting a great deal more for their product than they would otherwise be able to which is probably why they refuse to do compilations.
The Core Rulebook is intentionally underpriced to make the game more accessible. Have a look at the Runelords reprint.
It runs about 420 pages of content for $60. Much of this was already written, and just needed to be re-developed for Pathfinder (I know, "just").
The original 6 volumes ran about 90 pages of content each, or 540 pages total, or about an extra 28.5%. So just including all the content should push it to about $75-80.
It was also a proven seller (as in, every volume sold out), so Paizo was fairly certain they could sell more copies in the collected format. It was also done as a celebration of 5 years of APs, which probably let them discount it a little more.
I honestly don't believe that Paizo could simply produce a hardcover collected version of any other other AP at that price point. I suspect it would run closer to the $80-100 range, and then they couldn't do the 30% discount that subscribers get.
I know personally I find the big hardcovers too unwieldy to actually use at the table, so I actually much prefer the six separate volumes.
I must be completely unlike everyone else in the PF market. I absolutely REFUSE to buy an AP for the sole reason that they DON'T come out in compilations. RotRL was my first and only exception because, well - you know.The irony. :/
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I'm sure you're not alone, the trouble is that the market of people who only want to buy compilations probably isnt enough to support the production of them (even if someone were willing to invest the capital required to pay a dozen people plus freelancers for six-nine months prior to release).I wonder.
AP's if collected and priced the same would be around $100 - $120 at the price we're currently paying. Almost no one would be able to afford them in one fell swoop like that, so obviously the price would have to be lowered to something a bit more practical, like $40 or $50.
I doubt that pricing would be profitable - I suspect the product just wouldn't get made (what company has ever been able to put out something like that every six months?) the risk is enormous given you're basically going to pay everything except freight costs for nearly a year before you see any revenue. If one of the APs is a flop you're in serious trouble (without some bottomless pit of money to fund the next one).
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Still, if there is one old AP which deserves to be re-released ( after RotRL is now out ), it's Curse of the Crimson Throne. IMO the best AP Paizo has released so far.
I must be completely unlike everyone else in the PF market. I absolutely REFUSE to buy an AP for the sole reason that they DON'T come out in compilations. RotRL was my first and only exception because, well - you know.
I'm basically the same way (although Shackled City was my "first and only" exception so far), although in my case it's mostly because I'm cheap. But I can accept that I'm not the target market for adventure paths. (The target market being "people who are less cheap than hogarth", presumably.)
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Even tho it's already been stated a couple of times on this thread, people never seem to get it.
There is no concern about whether a compilation would sell and be profitable. It would.
Look at the Top Sellers list. As I'm writing this, the latest volume of the AP is 2nd (which is actually unusually low - it's usually 1st). Whenever you read this, I'd bet a lot that the latest volume is in the top 3. That ranking is due to the high number of copies sold through subscription.
Compilations will mean less subscriptions. Less subscriptions will mean less money available for developing new APs, and everything else.
It appears from the outside that Paizo has been doing very well. But I strongly doubt that any company can afford to lose a hefty chunk of sales from their #1 product.
I must be completely unlike everyone else in the PF market. I absolutely REFUSE to buy an AP for the sole reason that they DON'T come out in compilations. RotRL was my first and only exception because, well - you know.
It just drives me up a wall how much a single AP costs for the amount of pages and material you acquire as opposed to, say, the Core Rulebook itself. I can't justify the cost of it, especially in today's roller-coaster of an economy.
You are not alone, RotRLAE was the first and only AP I bought or will buy as I only want them in hardcover compilations. I don't like softcover RPG books, personal preference.
Compilations will mean less subscriptions. Less subscriptions will mean less money available for developing new APs, and everything else.
I'm sure you would be right if Paizos general policy were to compile the APs after, say, two or three years. But in the particular case of Curse of the Crimson Throne, it is an AP which is still in 3.5 format. For those four first APs which are still in the other rule system ( and especially Curse ), exceptions should apply, IMO, so that we have them all under one gaming system. The APs written under Pathfinder rules should not be compiled and revised.
And to be honest, I expect Paizo to make maybe two exceptions to their policy eventually.
Curse of the Crimson Throne and Kingmaker will likely someday get collections. Not every AP, and neither will be soon, but they will likely eventually happen.
I would think Kingmaker for one is successful enough to re-release perhaps with some rules revisions and bonus materiel. Maybe in a couple years and if they made a big deal about it...
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But in the particular case of Curse of the Crimson Throne, it is an AP which is still in 3.5 format. For those four first APs which are still in the other rule system ( and especially Curse ), exceptions should apply, IMO, so that we have them all under one gaming system. The APs written under Pathfinder rules should not be compiled and revised.
*Shrug* I've run curse as is for PFRPG, just maxing out hitpoints and adding a few mooks here and there. Being 3.5 doesn't hurt it, as the backwards compatibility of PFRPG. as CotCT doesn't use any new mechanics that conflict with PFRPG.... it takes like 2 minutes to max hitpoints for the bad guys and calculate CMB and CMD
Second Darkness seems a better candidate as it needs the most work.
Maybe too much work.
Consider the negative opinion associated with it. People are less likely to give something they already don't like another chance to disappoint them.
Creative Director
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Second Darkness seems a better candidate as it needs the most work.Maybe too much work.
Consider the negative opinion associated with it. People are less likely to give something they already don't like another chance to disappoint them.
Nope. I could fix it. It'll take more work than updating Runelords, but of all our Adventure Paths, Second Darkness is in fact the one I'd like to revise and expand the most.
I rather enjoyed SD, thanks to the efforts of our DM, who worked tirelessly to find ways to redeem the dickish elves in the last two modules. We also had a fight in outer space on the asteroid, which was boss!
I would love to hear more about how your DM fixed that AP, and about the battle on the asteroid. Is there a campaign journal anywhere?
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I think the posts since my last one show another part of the problem: there are suggestions for Crimson Throne, Second Darkness, and Kingmaker in only 10 posts.
If those get done, why not Legacy of Fire so all of the 3.5 paths are converted?
Why not fix the problems with Council of Thieves, or Jade Regent, or Serpents' Skull?
Where does the line get drawn?
And even if you "only" collect and convert the OGL paths, how many customers assume that is the new normal, and stop subscribing?
Nope. I could fix it. It'll take more work than updating Runelords, but of all our Adventure Paths, Second Darkness is in fact the one I'd like to revise and expand the most.Second Darkness seems a better candidate as it needs the most work.Maybe too much work.
Consider the negative opinion associated with it. People are less likely to give something they already don't like another chance to disappoint them.
Oh, please make that happen! I would love to see Second Darkness updated and would buy that for sure!
I bought the updated edition of RotRL even though I had the originals and it was awesome. The Shackled City hardcover also rocked! I own all the APs from Curse of the Crimson Throne to Serpent's Skull and if paizo updated any of those adventure paths I would buy it.
(The reason I don't own anything from Carrion Crown to Reign of Winter is that my group alternates GMs and another player in my group called dibs on those APs. I'm planning on restarting my subscription with Wrath of the Righteous though.)
I think Second Darkness and Serpents Skull would have have the most to gain by receiving an update, but probably Second Darkness deserves it more due to the PFRPG stats changes and also I bet James could do some wicked cool things expanding the demon angle of the AP.
Nope. I could fix it. It'll take more work than updating Runelords, but of all our Adventure Paths, Second Darkness is in fact the one I'd like to revise and expand the most.Second Darkness seems a better candidate as it needs the most work.Maybe too much work.
Consider the negative opinion associated with it. People are less likely to give something they already don't like another chance to disappoint them.
Interesting. I enjoyed the SD AP despite its faults, but I would love to see a "Re-cut Director's Edition" of this AP.
Also, I want to chime in that I'd LOVE to see CotCT and Kingmaker collected and updated.
Unfortunately for me, Kingmaker came out during an Unemployed part of my life and I wasn't subscribed to the APs at the time. I didn't pick back up until Carrion Crown.
I am one of the many who does not have a print edition of Kingmaker Part II, so if anyone has a link, or an avenue to find a print edition of Rivers Run Red that doesn't involve being charged an arm and a leg, please let me know. I've picked up the rest of the series over the last year and this now is my only missing issue in the series.
But in the particular case of Curse of the Crimson Throne, it is an AP which is still in 3.5 format. For those four first APs which are still in the other rule system ( and especially Curse ), exceptions should apply, IMO, so that we have them all under one gaming system. The APs written under Pathfinder rules should not be compiled and revised.*Shrug* I've run curse as is for PFRPG, just maxing out hitpoints and adding a few mooks here and there. Being 3.5 doesn't hurt it, as the backwards compatibility of PFRPG. as CotCT doesn't use any new mechanics that conflict with PFRPG.... it takes like 2 minutes to max hitpoints for the bad guys and calculate CMB and CMD
Eh, I rewrote a lot of NPCs and updated some other stuff while I was running it and it came around to quite a lot of work. By now Paizo has released about all of the monsters which back then still were not converted into the Pathfinder format, but all the NPCs need updating, since they have less feats and abilities than their PF counterparts.
I think the posts since my last one show another part of the problem: there are suggestions for Crimson Throne, Second Darkness, and Kingmaker in only 10 posts.
If those get done, why not Legacy of Fire so all of the 3.5 paths are converted?
Why not fix the problems with Council of Thieves, or Jade Regent, or Serpents' Skull?Where does the line get drawn?
I actually already supported Legacy of Fire, since it is included in "all the 3.5 APs". That's a pretty clear line.
As for Kingmaker, if it continues to be so popular, simply re-printing the modules would do, since they are already in Pathfinder format.
And even if you "only" collect and convert the OGL paths, how many customers assume that is the new normal, and stop subscribing?
Um, clear communication? Put "This is one of a series of rewrites of the Adventure Paths which were not written under the Pathfinder RPG rules. Only those four APs have a chance of being compiled, to have our complete AP line under one rule system." or something a bit more extensive into the foreword and just make it crystal clear that you'll stick with that stance. Presto. Seriously, sometimes I have this notion that some people here think that costumers of Paizo are all yokels which can't read or comprehend even slightly complex things, when basically those costumers are we ourselves.
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Where does the line get drawn?
I think drawing the line at "convert and update all the 3.5 D&D APs" is very sensible. Reasons:
1) It is easy to market in a way that will not confuse anyone - "Project Pathfinder-ise! for the next three years, Paizo will republish all the 3.5 APs in hardcovers, so that all APs will be in a PF version!". People will understand and probably sympathize with the prospect quickly. It could be explained in length in all the relevent hardcovers, in the opening words segmant ("You are now holding in your hands the second of the 4 - parts series of converted 3.5 APs! Be sure to check out about the other 3..."). Only a neglectable number of people should remain confused after that kind of marketing strategy.
2)It's kind of a natural selection. For anyone joining the party a bit late, the 3.5 APs are probably inaccecible and he/she will never chose them over any of the Pathfinder APs, because there are many good options and people will go for those that require less of a hussle to get going.
3) Curse of the Crimson Throne has the kind of a fanbase that might very well just go and make an econimcaly unwise descision to buy the revised edition for nostalgic reasons, and it IS considerd by many to be the finest AP ever made, so sales are a safe bet.
4) Second Darkness has been mentioned multiple times by JJ as something he'd like to revise one day, and I'm sure many people would be intrested in trying to give the many cool concepts of the AP a Second Chance (pun intended :P) so again, I'm sure the AP would succed commercialy.
5) Legacy of Fire is maybe a bit more problematic than the other two are, but it certainly has a fanbase and a good reputation, and it could make good use of the chance to fix the 5th module significantly.
I don't think most APs call for revised editions and honestly I wouldn't but most of them, but I am a firm supporter of the idea of translating the older APs to the new rule system.
3) Curse of the Crimson Throne has the kind of a fanbase that might very well just go and make an econimcaly unwise descision to buy the revised edition for nostalgic reasons, and it IS considerd by many to be the finest AP ever made, so sales are a safe bet.
You can pretty much guarantee that I'd buy the hardcover. It is the AP which left with the best memories and which I'd be most willing to run again.
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3) Curse of the Crimson Throne has the kind of a fanbase that might very well just go and make an econimcaly unwise descision to buy the revised edition for nostalgic reasons, and it IS considerd by many to be the finest AP ever made, so sales are a safe bet.You can pretty much guarantee that I'd buy the hardcover. It is the AP which left with the best memories and which I'd be most willing to run again.
I'm with you, buddy. Even though I'm only running it now for the first time, and we only just finished Edge of Anarchy, we are having our most fun with Pathfinder as a group ever. Our previous campaign togather was Savage Tide and while that was nice, it REALLY can't compare.
I would not blink twice before buying a revised, hardcover, Curse of the Crimson Throne AP collection. I am sure my feelings on this are shared by many others, including Magnuskn here.
The main problem is not if the compilations would sell, it's not that people would be confused, it's not the extra workload or any of the other problems people are focussing on.
The problem is that some people might not buy the new AP that is coming out at the same time these compilations are. That risk is a serious one - not only has vic said they're unlikely to do it, he's even asked us not to request it. It's that concerning to them. The APs are central to how paizo do business - moving their business in directions that could potentially reduce sales of the current AP is a huge risk.
So why did they re-release RotRL, then? It's just the same risk... and it worked out.
It was a one off celebration of paizo's anniversary, the launch of pathfinder, etcetera.
Here is the post from vic on the topic, in which he asks us to squash the idea. He has lots of other really thorough posts if you search his history for compilations or reprints.
Vic:
"Seriously, guys, please stop asking for other compilations. It's not going to happen, and I don't want people who don't read carefully thinking it's likely to happen.
One of the main reasons for not doing this one is that just having the notion out there that we *might* do this for other APs is harmful. I'd really appreciate it if everybody would help squash that idea whenever and wherever it is raised.
This is a unique circumstance."
From another of his posts:
I can't see that many people forgoing their subscriptions to wait for it.I can. Once we published the hardcover Shackled City, we heard from a *lot* of people who were interested in Age of Worms or Savage Tide but didn't subscribe because they thought there would be a hardcover coming. And when we first announced Pathfinder, we heard from a lot of people who wanted to know if we'd be collecting the APs so they could avoid subscribing. I believe that announcing a plan to do regular compilations would cause an immediate and significant drop in existing subscriptions, as well as a measurable slowdown in gaining new subscribers.
The latter post by Vic is not about the point I've been trying to make, which is that re-releasing the four 3.5 APs would be a completely different animal than making regular compilations. He is talking there about leaving the impression that compilations will be a regular thing for every AP and this impression can be easily avoided.
The first post you cited, well, I obviously disagree with his assessment. Communicating clearly what your intentions are in compiling the 3.5 APs through advertisements, blog posts and in-book text should be enough to make the position of Paizo clear on compiling every AP regularly. RPG costumers are not idiots and are eminently capable of complex thought processes.
For those of us who'll buy all of them, it's probably not a problem. But for those only buying one every now and again? They have a choice between the currently releasing AP or the hardcover all-in-one. Some who would have bought the new AP will instead choose the convenience of CotCT (or whatever). That's bad.
Irrespective of the details - they know what they're doing and they're pretty clear its going to need to be something really special (vic has lots more posts on the issue, if you want a detailed discussion on it).
It's possible things have changed, however they did ask us not to discuss it. Vic's posts are pretty exhaustive.
Since I didn't see his posts on the subject ( the board is pretty big and threads fall off the main page fastly ), I couldn't say. I imagine his reasoning is sound enough, but I still think there are enough caveats to support compiling the restant three APs.
The amount of work it would require is another topic entirely and is probably an even more important reason it won't happen for a good while, if ever. The devs appear stretched out enough from the normal release schedule alone.
Since I didn't see his posts on the subject ( the board is pretty big and threads fall of the main page fastly ), I couldn't say. I imagine his reasoning is sound enough, but I still think there are enough caveats to support compiling the restant three APs.
Yeah, it was a hot topic back when the anniversary edition was announced. Otherwise it just pops up every now and again.
I think it would be awesome, fwiw, I've just resigned myself to seeing one every five years at the most. :/